Help Redo My Room

[dbflash]

Help.

Where do I begin?

My temporary 2 channel room is not ideal.

My speakers are 2 feet in front of a pair of French Doors. While its nice sitting in my chair looking outside it is killing my sound. My system sounds bright and I lost the warmth.

After reading Arttos reply about curtains in past posts they are not worthwhile option.

What I have thought about doing is putting up a curtain rod across the top of the French doors and making Masonite Panels and hanging them like pictures. Will this work?

I have also thought about using acoustic foam and tile and mounting them on sheets of Masonite and hanging them on the curtain rod also like a picture. Again will this work?

I can play around with the side walls by using thumb tacks to mount the foam, but the French Windows are my down fall.

Artto, DrWho , Michael Hurd or anyone else have any ideas where I start?

Danny

[DrWho]

Well what kind of budget are you talking about here? Also, what are the dimensions of your room and the gear beind used? Pictures would also be helpful. If nothing else, at least a sketch of your room and layout (include all the furniture too).

The first thing I would suggest would be to change the layout in the room and try to get the speakers in an ideal as possible situation. Perhaps try listening on the long wall instead of the short wall.

Anyways, I can see hanging normal acoustical panels working, but not really masonite panels. For the masonite to work, it needs to bend and is actually quite heavy. I don't think you could get the masonite to look good or even sound good (compared to hanging panels). The masonite only acts like a diffusor anyway and depending on your room, absorbtion may actually be more beneficial.

[dbflash]

DrWho,

Thanks for the response.

I will try and get measurements tonight.

I dont really have a long wall because of doorways leading into other rooms.

I had my system arranged between a corner and a doorway leading into the kitchen. My chair was basically positioned in the entrance of the house by the front door.

I rearranged everything so I could have a chair and a love seat in the living room and moved my speakers, at first a pair of Cornwalls and now KLF20s, in to the dining room. The room is a great room (living and dining room combo).

From the pictures of the panels I have seen it seems that I could buy 2 sheets of Masonite and some 1x. I was going to attach the 1x on one of the sheets and then curve the other sheet using the flat panel as a wall. I then was going to hang it over the French door like a picture. I am still debating this.

My other option is to get a couple Auralex Studio Foam Designer Kits from Musicians Friend. Since this set up is going to be temporary until I get my other room completed in the next year or so I dont want to permanently mount anything because I will be moving it all into the other room.

I was thinking this morning to get a couple of designer kits. I was going to attach the foam tiles to peg board. I can then hang them like pictures. Hopefully this will tame my room. Then when I get my other room completed I can the move the panels into that room.

Do you think this will work?

I also remember you posting a foam panel kit for $299 from Musicians friends, but I cannot find it.

I would like to spend no more than $500 if possible, but I dont want to add a lot of stuff that isnt going to work. I really think the big glass doors are causing problems. If I can tame this and tune the room a little, I will be happy.

The room itself is quite. I can clap and shout with no echo.

Thanks again.

Danny

[DrWho]

Well here's a link to all the Auralex products at musiciansfriend:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=rec/search?b=1214

I think the roominator alpha 1 is the one I most commonly link to, though the designer kit may be what you're looking for (the difference is in the bass traps).

Now you mention that your room sounds bright. Is this because you're sitting in a null of no bass, or because the glass on the doors is reflecting sound? Do you notice any bass build up in the corners? I'm thinking that it's a combination of both.

As far as the masonite panels, I think you would get better results if you left the back of it open. So just use 1x1's to create the curve in the panel and hang the panel by the 1x1's too. How far from the wall would they be if you used your idea? Like 6 inches right? And which way were you planning on curving them? I would venture to say that curving it so that the curve is on the wall (not curved from floor to cieling). Keep in mind that the masonite is actually quite heavy too.

If your speakers are in the corner you might consider just placing bent masonite on top of your speaker and leaning the panels against the walls that make up the corner. I have done this in my crap of a listening room and have had great results...and it's totally removable without any effort. In fact, I've got one panel curved vertically and then in front of that one I have another one curved horizontally. The panel that made the biggest difference though was the one mounted between the cieling and front wall that hangs down at an angle right in the center of everything...It gave me a very up front sound which I've been enjoying a lot.

Anyways, if you don't want to rest masonite on your speakers, then you might want to consider putting some bass traps on top of or behind your speakers into the front corner. I've tried this in so many systems and it has always given me a good return. The cool part about this is that you'll be able to put the bass traps in your new room as well without any hassle. Perhaps the alpha1 kit would be a good start...

Since you're looking at spending $500, I would say go with the alpha1 and then if you wanted, build a few masonite panels as well...that'd cost well under $500 ($300 for the kit and $100 for the masonite and hardware and 1x1s). Then you could also mount the auralex panels on the front of the curved masonite. You may also want to put some of the 1'x1' panels on the cieling or real wall as needed...though, a temporary mount would probably be difficult. It looks like the tubetack adhesive stuff they provide is more of a permament glue.

Oh cool, I just came across the "Foamtak Spray Adhesive"...it's meant for taking stuff down at a later time. You may want to consider buying the bass traps and the panels seperately and then buy this adhesive instead. You'd be getting 40 less panels, but I can't picture you ever using that many...or perhaps you might, who knows. That's up to you

Whatever you do, just keep in mind to do one thing at a time and be as observational as possible. Room treatment is an art and it's important to know what "treatments" are doing what. For what it's worth, I'm just getting into the whole acoustic scene, so take my comments with that in mind.

[dbflash]

Thanks.

I took out all my Dope from Hope papers last night and read about the panels.

They are alot easier than I thought. I am going to build 4-6 panels this weekend just to get started.

I am going to play with them for a week or so and then maybe try the foam.

After reading about them I am going to just use build 1x1 frames and place the masonite in them leaving them open.

I am also looking at making some mini ones to place in the corners behind the speakers.

I am thinking my lack of "warmth" is the glass and my sound is just getting reflected and bouncing around. I am going to play around and see what happens. I know it sounds funny but sometimes I think my system sounds better when I am in another room listening to it while I'm doing something else instead of sitting in my chair.

I am only going to try one mod at a time and not just wholesale everything at once. I really what to understand what each of these upgrades do or do not do.

I will let you know. After reading the papers last night I agree with PWK when he said that the room is the second most important part of your system. I am just trying to get the less than ideal room to sound a little better. Most people who hear my system like it, but to me there is just something not right. I probably have too much time on my hands, but after spending all this money I want to get every thing I can out of it.

Thanks again.

Danny

[john4618]

What are the Dope from Hope papers?

I just searched that phrase and found nothing.

I need room treatments too so I am very interested in these panels.

Is there a site for the Dope from Hope papers - do you have a link or ?

[dbflash]

John,

Dope from Hope are papers that PWK wrote about different subjects to dealers in the early 60's to 70's I think.

last year a couple members somehow had copies and offered them to members on the BB.

I just checked the site I got mine from and it is no longer there.

Post this subject on 2 channel and ask if anyone knows how to get a copy of the Dope From Hope.

You may also be able to get in touch with justin_tx_16 (something like that) and he maybe able to help. I think he has a post "hello" in the general section.

sorry i couldn't help you more.

danny

[DrWho]

----------------

On 10/19/2004 11:26:31 AM dbflash wrote:

Thanks.

I took out all my Dope from Hope papers last night and read about the panels.

They are alot easier than I thought. I am going to build 4-6 panels this weekend just to get started.

I am going to play with them for a week or so and then maybe try the foam.

After reading about them I am going to just use build 1x1 frames and place the masonite in them leaving them open.

I am also looking at making some mini ones to place in the corners behind the speakers.

I am thinking my lack of "warmth" is the glass and my sound is just getting reflected and bouncing around. I am going to play around and see what happens. I know it sounds funny but sometimes I think my system sounds better when I am in another room listening to it while I'm doing something else instead of sitting in my chair.

I am only going to try one mod at a time and not just wholesale everything at once. I really what to understand what each of these upgrades do or do not do.

I will let you know. After reading the papers last night I agree with PWK when he said that the room is the second most important part of your system. I am just trying to get the less than ideal room to sound a little better. Most people who hear my system like it, but to me there is just something not right. I probably have too much time on my hands, but after spending all this money I want to get every thing I can out of it.

Thanks again.

Danny

----------------

I think every system I've ever heard has much better clarity when listening from an adjacent room. I've read about some hardcore studios and even live sound techniques that the engineer can use to his advantage. I think it has to do with the amount of reflections occuring in the listening room versus that outside...who knows.

As far as using mini panels in the corners...keep in mind that the size of any acoustic panel has a large factor in the frequencies it will affect. The whole concept behind the curved masonite panel is to spread out the sound that is bouncing off of it; this causes the sound to spread out into a larger area which in turn results in a greater loss of SPL as well as it redirects the sound so that there really is no single angle of reflection (which causes less beaming and gives a more disperse sound). I think a panel with a 3 foot diagnal will only have real benefits down to 80Hz, 6 feet for 40Hz and 12 feet for 20Hz. (someone correct my math if im on drugs). 3 feet is a 1/4 wavelength of 80Hz right?

Just out of curiosity, how big are the panels that you're hanging?

Btw, the dope from hope papers can be obtained from Justin as already mentioned. He has the paper hosted at his website: http://www.soundwise.org/contact.htm

The link to the actual file is blind which means you won't find the address anywhere on the site. The reason for this is because he incurred a rather large cost to get them available in an electronic format. He doesn't require, but asks for a donation via paypal. The link I provided brings you to his contact info, so just drop him an email and he'll give you the lowdown and the link. I think the file is 30mb or so and is 100 some pages.

[DrWho]

Yikes! I just remembered something...

Artto was the one who put together the Dope from Hope papers (300+) and then Justin was the one who went about scanning them to get an electronic copy.

Just putting due credit where it belongs

[dbflash]

Hey Dr

I was out of the office all day yesterday so I could not get back.

Last night I went to both Lowes and Home Depot looking for masonite and they both have stopped selling it.

I am going to try some other stores tonight.

After comparing a 1/4" 4x8 sheet of hardboard I now understand what you mean about the weight of these things.

I made some panels using peg board, 1x3's, fiberglass insulation and covering them with black cloth. I hung them using 75lb picture frame hooks.

The masonite and frames are going to weigh much more. I am going to build them and see what I can do about mounting them. I may even lean them against the french doors to see what the effect is.

The mini panels are out. I am going to order the Auralex Roominator kit today. The kit contains more than I need for my present room, but I can use it later.

I can play around with the bass traps and panels. Since I have no idea what the masonite panels are going to do (if anything) or the Auralex I think I what to be able to tempo hang all of it before I make it permanent.

Artto mentioned using T pins to put the foam panels up once and I think I am going to start with that approach until I get a handle on all of this.

Danny

[DrWho]

So how's the progress besides the masonite? Just for kicks, I tried finding some myself and I can't find any either. I wonder why nobody is carrying it anymore. Perhaps someone else more knowledgable can chime in, but I don't think you MUST use masonite for the diffusor. Diffusion is more about the shape of the object than anything else. Perhaps some plywood might work or another similar material (i can see plywood having a much brighter sound than masonite, but I have also seen other rooms that use painted plywood).

I don't know the validity of my observations or assessments, but I think you can get a good idea of how a material will sound on your wall just by simply hitting two objects of the same material together. For example, when I installed my masonite panels, I noticed that they made a funny sound as they got banged against each other and being the "kid" I am, I entertained myself probably for 5 minutes trying to get the sound as loud as I could. Once they were installed, I dare say that the tonality of the music in the room resembled the sound of the panels hitting each other. I have also heard a room with bare plywood walls and I swear you can find a resemblence between the tonality there and the sound made when you slap plywood together. I suppose I could argue that the reason certain materials make certain sounds when struck is because there are certain frequencies that resonate easier than others. When airpressure strikes a panel, wouldn't it be fair to assume that those certain frequencies are going to be sympathetically reproduced by the panel?

If that's the case, then I suggest you run around the hardware store banging all sorts of panels together until you find a sound that you feel is the opposite of the problem in your room Just make sure that what you end up with is broadband and not specific to your problem (aka, those cieling tile things would be a bad choice). Or you could totally go with the plywood and find some material to put over it...like those panels you just bought (or are going to buy?)

[dbflash]

Dr,

I think they stopped using masonite a couple of years ago.

I did find an ACE hardware store 25 miles from here that still had some. I took last Friday off and made the drive up. What they had couldn't have been the right stuff. It had grooves in it every 12 inches. I tried bending it and there was no way I could get it to bend 9 inches.

I left and went to Home depot to pick up 12 1x6x12 pieces of wood to make CD racks. I have filled up 2 of my racks so I decided to make 4 new ones so I didn't have to mess with them again for a couple of years.

I am going to order the Auralex kit next week. I want to finish the CD racks this weekend.

While I was loading my wood I noticed 2 guys carrying a sheet of some material that was bending really easy. It was either counter top or fiber glass. I am thinking of finding this and playing around with it. If it is hard material them I'm not sure if it will be any better than having the doors in the way. I'm thinking about using it, getting a cardboard tube that is used to pour footings. I will cut the tube in half. This will give me a bend. Make a frame,attach the tubes and then put the material over it all. I may cover the whole thing with burlap or Auralex foam. I haven't really figured it out yet, but I know I can't use 1/4" plywood or hard board because it will not bend. I or someone else is going to have to find a new material to make the panels.

Monday night I had a major problem at the house. I had to work Monday night. I felt bad about it so I gave my dog a new kind of rawhide bone. I gave it to her when I left at 9:30pm. I got home at 2 am, let her out and finally fell asleep by 3:30. I got my first phone call at 6:30am. As I was stumbling to the phone I was thinking that it smelled like crap in the house. I looked in the sun room and saw one huge pile (solid) one smaller pile (semi-solid) and one long oil slick. I'm getting sick trying to open the door. I finally opened the door, stuck a fan in the door sucking the smell outside. I then called my girlfriend and asked if she wanted to make a quick $100. She was cracking up, but she came over that afternoon and cleaned it up. I was going to rip out the carpet anyway and put tile out there. I am going to rip the carpet out after I finish the CD racks and start installing tile.

After I get the tile done and repaint the room I am going to work on my room.

It's always something. I will keep you posted. If you can think of another material to use instead of masonite let me know.

Danny

[dbflash]

A brief update:

I finally finished the sunroom and could get back to working on my cold, bright room.

I couldnt find Masonite anywhere so I had to go to plan B. I ended up using 1/8 hardboard. It looks like pegboard without the holes.

I bought the following last Sunday:

(1) 1/8 4x8 sheet of hardboard

(2) 1x2x8

(4) 1x2x6

I couldnt stand the hardboard up without hitting the ceiling. I decided to make the diffuser go from the floor to the bottom of the crown molding.

I cut the hardboard, cut the 8 1x2 the same length as the hardboard.

I then cut the 4 1x2x6 42.

I built the frame (glue and brads) and installed the hardboard. At the present time the frame is sitting on the floor so the hardboard isnt falling out of the frame. I am going to play around with quarter round and glue to see if I can keep it from sliding out if I ever decide to hang it.

I placed it in the middle of the French Doors.

I sat in my chair and started a CD. Holy Carp! It really made a difference. My system no longer sounds bright. The HIs no longer sound smeared. My system sounds so natural and clean.

I cannot believe the difference. I have less than $40 in this so far. I am either going to paint it or put some material over it when I get around to it

I am going to get acoustic panel in the next month or so and start working on reflections.

Im thinking about building mini panels and putting one in each corner. I will either put it on the back wall behind the speaker or split the corner (half on back wall and half on side wall).

DrWho and Artto Thank you.

Danny

[Champagne taste beer budget]

Nice to hear someone is making good use of the info in this section. Nice job, Danny. I plan on doing some of the tricks and treatments discussed here in my room, but I need a few basics first. Like walls, outlets, a ceiling, that sort of thing. You'll know when it starts to come together, I'll be asking questions in this section like a 10 yr old that accidently saw a porn video!

[Champagne taste beer budget]

BTY, I bought some Masonite like a year ago close to me, too late now to call and see if they still carry it though. In a quick search I see that Home Depot still has home improvement plans for projects that require masonite.

Figures. I thought what the heck, I'd just call HD and see what they said, even if it is long distance. The woman I talked to was up to her neck with someone elses' problem, newer employee, wasn't sure about the Masonite, but was very nice and said she'd check and call me back in 10-15. I'll let ya know.

Edit: She called back about 30 seconds after I posted; they only have the same holeless type hardboard you've already got. 4x8x1/8", $6.87, 4x8x3/16", $9.99. Odd that they would call out Masonite in their home improvement projects though. Maybe if I was at the store I'd have a better chance of finding it than an employee?!?!?

[DrWho]

I just talked to my Grandma the other day about the masonite thing and I asked her if she knew of any more places I might find some (btw, my grandma is a hardcore "handyman"...for xmas she got a new saw with blades and all that). Anyways, she told me that "Masonite" is actually a namebrand and that the real name of the material is "hardboard". So basically, hardboard and masonite are the exact same material. I have a ton of masonite panels in my garage as well as pegboards on the walls and so I decided to compare the two and I couldn't tell a difference (besides the holes). Seems like your plan B was actually plan A after all this time!

Btw, I think it might be interesting to use peg board with some sort of sound absorbtion inside the curve. The holes would basically allow more sound through the panel which would give you more absorbtion with about the same level of diffusion while also reducing panel vibration. Absorbtion tends to deaden up the sound so this wouldn't always be an improvement (except in a very live room).

[Champagne taste beer budget]

I think I know where I lost it...

I think I was thinking of Melamine, the same hardboard stuff but with a slick surface on one side, almost like Formica coating on the hardboard? I'd bought some of that for a potting/gardening bench type thing for my wife that never got built. Easy cleanup, nice smooth surface, but after we decided to build the new house, I knew the project was for naught, so I cut the sheet up and made part of it the bottom for a 2nd ice fishing sled last year. Worked great, slick as snot, except I left it out in the rain and the hardboard resorted back to it's original makeup: sawdust. Another great project that didn't work out, am I the only one that has those?

Oh yeah. I'm not surprised your grandma was right; aren't they always?

[WMcD]

I have been accumlating info on this. None of it right here so I'm talking on technical issues and names from memory.

N.B.: I'd be happy to put together a collection and mail it off to people who are seriously interested. Please give me your postal address by PM or e-mail. They are:

The Dope From Hope, which is out there already.

The paper by Dr. Boner in the Acoustical Society of America, cited by Klipsch (but not helpful).

A companion paper in the ASofA volume. A bit more informative than Boner.

A section of The Master Handbook of Acoustics. Looks more informative but I wonder if it is just an author discussing other people's experience.

A section of Acoustics of Studios and Auditoria by . . . a Russian guy (name escapes me). (Translated.) Referred to in the MHA.

I observe that in all the above, there is not a lot of hard data or agreement. Good results are reported though. I am going to do some building myself. This seems to be a workable improvement. Few of us can move walls.

1) One issue is just how much of room has to be treated. I.e. how many panels compared to wall area. PWK seems to say 10% while others talk of 20%. Some installations and halls shown seem to use it, much, much more.

I have make an informal observation on this while in the tub. I have a tub / shower made of fiberglass and it has sliding glass doors. Sort of a large phonebooth. I listen to NPR on a Sony Tap Tune.

With the door closed the "room" is very echo-ey. Sliding open a glass door dramatically reduces the echo. I'd estimate that it creates an anechoic situation for 1/6th of the wall area. So maybe 10 to 20 percent is indeed enough. (More on this below.)

2) A second issue is how much of an arc or bulge you need. Some are talking about a 25 percent to 30 percent bulge, others less. My calculations put that at about 120 degrees of arc of a cylinder. On the other hand, the Russian is talking about half cylinders or 180 degrees. BTW, I have a spread sheet for calculations on the curve. Maybe a very big diffuser with 10 percent (small arc) works while a smaller one needs more.

3) Should the units be stuffed with acoustic insulation such as pink fiberglass? MHofA reports good results and cites to the Russian. This increases bass absorption. It is not quite clear from the Russian whether he using stuffed half cylinders of hardboard, or just half cylinders of soft acoustic material. I note that one photo shows PWK had one half cylinder in a big listening room.

4) How can you be sure you're making things better, rather than worse? Do you have a problem which can be solved? Where to put them? Horizontal or vertical? Is one big better than two small?

Random placement is suggested. That doesn't tell us much.

Bigger must be better, and the radius is easier to bend.

My thought is that we all have rectangular rooms with large parallel surfaces. They all have slap echos or flutter echos to some extent.

You can test this by a sharp handclap. You probably will hear the "booiinnggg." It sometimes depends where you stand and hand and ear placement. That is an indication there is a problem.

My conclusion is that many rooms (big, parallel, plaster board walls) are SO poor that just about ANY treatment will improve them. This is like the bath tub experiment. Changing 10 to 20 percent might be enough.

Best,

Gil

[dbflash]

Gil,

Nice post.

I could not agree more with "My conclusion is that many rooms (big, parallel, plaster board walls) are SO poor that just about ANY treatment will improve them".

I didn't really figure out how big of a curve to make. I just read in the Dope From Hope that for the size panel I was making to use a 9" curve. I made the frame so it was 3'3" across. I figured that would give me close to 9".I just looked at Artto's room and my panel doesn't look anything like his. Mine look like the Dope From Hope drawing.

I have been asking myself the question "How many of these things do I need?"

They are so easy. It took me less than an hour to cut everything. I didn't feel like getting my miter saw out so I ended up cutting everything with a circular saw.

I don't think that all the panels should be the same size. I don't know if that's true or not, but it just seems that I want to break up waves at different heights on the wall.

If I can borrow a pickup trunk I am going to get another piece of hardboard and make two more panels as tall and a little wider than my KLF20 speakers. I am going to set them in the corner's behind the speakers. I will have less than $40 invested so if they work great, if not it sure is cheaper than upgrading IC's or speaker wire.

I am on record now that the room is the most important component in this crazy hobby. You can have the best (whatever that is) equipment and if your room suc!s you wasted your money. I also think that if you have a good room to begin with that you can get by with way less than the best and still have a darn good system.

Oh the money I wasted to get where I am right now. Who would have thought a $40 mod would make such a big difference in MY ROOM.

Danny

[DAX616]

Read the section on curtains in "The Master Hand book of Accoustics". It claims the various distance from the wall (the folds in the material) will help absorb frequencies through out a range. The graph will show you more. Given the material is velour. It's expensive. I personally have (2) 6' sliders on a long wall. I'll be using a velour knock off spaced from the wall. That used to be my staging wall but I switched. Unless someone can say from actual experience that they noticed a notch in their listening experience from unequal absorption specifically due to curtains, don't count it out. The data in the book does not look that bad for the lighter velour.