Classical talk - sensuality and rhythm

[dubai2000]

Maxs thread on string quartets made me wonder why I find it difficult to develop a lot of enthusiasm for the genre. I tend to believe its not the complexity of musical expressions, but rather the lack of tonal colour to MY ears, this is!!! But then I guess I have always been a bit of a lunatic as I recall teenage years when classical music was (of course) out except one LP: Solti conducting the VPO in...Bruckners 7th symphony. I know that a lot of people find Bruckner very long and tedious, but I have very fond memories of those huge brass climaxes blasting my ears. It was kind of a change from Led Zep, but in a sense it didnt feel that different as somehow I could relate to the sensual side of sound of an orchestra playing pretty close to its limits. I guess that is one reason why I prefer big works to a more intimate kind of classical music. Another record that got an occasional airing in those years was Stravinskys Petrouchka. Here it was not so much sound, but rhythm I could relate to. Interestingly enough I found his Rite of Spring too difficult at the time. Rhythm has actually made it much easier for me to approach 20th century works (though of course that is not the main element of all modern classical works).

When it comes to sensual music, one cannot really escape Wagners Tristan. The composer himself has written that only mediocre performances could save him, as good ones would simply blow off peoples mind. Listen to the very end of the opera when Isolde dies in the classic Böhm performance on DG and you get an idea (sorry for no link, but I dont have Larrys skill in that respect great idea, though!). Okay, Wagner operas are long, so what else comes to mind? Bruckner, but he is long too. I love most of his symphonies and have discovered fascinating recordings by Sergiu Celibidache on EMI but more on those at a later stage. For the brave Id suggest symphonies 7-9. Another composer whose sounds can almost be like a warm human touch is Puccini. I guess thats why his operas: Tosca (I love the Serafin recording on Decca because of George London as Scarpia but of course de Sabatas 1953 set on EMI with Callas and Gobbi is a must as well!), La Boheme (if you dont mind mono: Toscanini), Madama Butterfly ( Karajan on Decca) and Turandot (Mehta on Decca) remain popular. You prefer something shorter? Richard Strauss Four last songs (Janowitz/Karajan on DG) I think even stones will be moved by this one!

So if sensual sounds and rhythm did/do it for me, what are your preferences? Thanks in advance for your contributions....after all they keep these threads alive!

Wolfram

[maxg]

Crikey Wolfram - sensual is tough. I have been sitting pondering this for 5 minutes and there are just so many possible interpretations to given pieces of music I hardly know where to start.

Just to pick up on one of your recommendations - Boheme - you got to have Callas singing that one - nothing else will do:

Puccini

La Boheme

Maria Callas

Del Teatro alla Scala

Antonio Votto

EMI

063-18298

Stereo

Greece

(Had to post a link to some Greek vinyl - but it is no better than the UK version in reality).

Now back to sensual...hmmm....not easy...I can cover heart rending, poigniant and a load of others more easily....

OK lets go for:

Rimsky-Korsakov

Scheherazade

Chicago Symphony

Fritz Reiner

RCA Victor Red Seal

LSC-2446

US

Living Stereo

The above is seduction on a grand scale - actually it is really the point of the story - but it is seduction of the mind rather than of the body so I dont know if you would count it.

I think that I would have chosen otherwise from Puccini now that I am on a role. Madame Butterfly has a variety of arias that soar into sensuality, and rejected love of course, which in itself has a sensual, if slightly masochistic side.

I suppose there is a sensual side to many operas - Aida has its moments, Traviata too.

I wonder if others will be better at this one?

[dubai2000]

Max,

thanks for responding. You are probably right when saying that 'sensual' is a tricky word, but I was indeed just trying to put into words why I seem to like those 'big sounds' more than chamber or solo instrumental music (at least most of the time). So let me ask again: why do you choose certain works or a certain genre more often than others? If classical music at all: is it a symphony, an opera or something else that you play most often?

Wolfram

[D-MAN]

I too find chamber pieces to be too, well, "thin", I guess.

Chamber pieces are intended to be intimate, first and foremost, both in size and scope, IMO. I find the genre too limited, and lacking in richness and dynamics. This is one time where I think that "less is NOT more", but I'm sure many would disagree with my assessment. I also can't get past some sort of class-socio-economic-thing with them. They make me uncomfortable.

But it's just personal taste. I would imagine that the LOWTHER crowd would find a great appeal with that kind of intimate, confined (if I may be so bold) music...

DM

[LarryC]

Sensuality in music is difficult to address. For me, Bruckner doesn't have much of it. IMO, his symphonies tend to sound similar, written in big blocks of sound that sometimes alternate between woodwind, string, and brass choirs, similar to what one can hear in organ works (a common joke is that he wrote the same symphony 9 times). That said, his 9th symphony is a favorite of mine -- a powerful, lofty first movement, a powerful scherzo, and a deeply introspective adagio last movement (Bruckner was unable to complete the symphony before his death). The ending of the first movement must be heard to be believed.

I haven't heard many recordings of the 9th including the Celibidache, but my long-standing favorite is the 1944 recording by Wilhelm Furtwängler and the Berlin Philharmonic (I always listen for bombers overhead, but they never show). A current CD of this recording can be found here. Unfortunately, the Furtwangler recording has no audio clips, but the Celibidache does, on Disc 4 of this album. I suggest you listen to all of the clips, from all 3 movements.

The very wistful and great Four Last Songs by Richard Strauss was his last work. Although completed in 1948, the year before his death, they are very beautiful, tonal works rooted in the prior century. I have the recording by Elisabeth Schwarzkopf with Szell and the Berlin Radio symphony, available on CD for only $11 at Amazon.com. Audio clips from this recording can be heard here. The recording also containes five other beautiful Strauss songs, also beautifully written for soprano.

Truth is, I don't have great suggestions for sensuality in music, and rhythm is a whole different topic. For great rhythm throughout, I'd suggest Carmina Burana by Carl Orff, a unique 20th-century composition. I really like the old Eugene Ormandy recording with the Philadelphia, until recently available on CD for a steal, and now apparently available only on SACD. While I couldn't find audio clips from that recording, you can hear well-played selections from this one.

Happy listening!

Larry

[maxg]

"So let me ask again: why do you choose certain works or a certain genre more often than others? If classical music at all: is it a symphony, an opera or something else that you play most often? "

You know I am not sure that I do. I guess it is mood related - but even there it is either listen to the new stuff I just picked up, or, go with an old favorite. Sometimes I even play lucky dip and grab whatever comes to hand.

I think I have a weakness for Violin concertos above all else - but saying that Aida, Boheme, Traviata, Barber, figaro...all come to mind so I definitely have one for Opera too

Symphonies and piano concertos? Well I love Beethoven - need you ask?

Probably my least favorite is large Choral works but even there I will listen on ocasion.

Lets call it classical, but eclectic. Forgot quartets and just picked up my first trio too (not heard it yet - bought a dozen or so recordings all together).