maxg Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Can you imagine a meaningful comparison between the 2? Neither can I and that is the problem. After another 6 hours in total yesterday doing, what I now recognise, as meaningless comparsions I have discovered that to compare SACD to vinyl for classical music is as useful and productive as pi55ing into the wind. There are just too many variables - the last of which hit home last night. Guess what? SACD is as variable as all other media when it comes to reproducing music. Bought 3 disks yesterday: 1. Leontyne Price - Selected arias from Verdi and Puccini - Living Stereo. Brilliant. 2. Holst Planets / Britten Four Sea interludes - Leonard Bernstein - Sony Multichanel. Atrocious. 3. JS Bach Christmas Oratorio - The Netherlands Bach Society - Channel Classics (double album - as in 2 disks - does album apply to SACD?) Average. The Holst is a bugger. My vinyl is not all that good either - but better than this. Worse - there were 2 versions available at the shop and I guess I plumped for the wrong one. Right now the best version I have is on CD - which was the first version I owned - typical! Now the comparison issues: Having got passed the Holst we come to the Living Stereo Leontyne Price. It is super - but - so radically different from the vinyl versions it simply cant be compared. The fact that this is made up of performances I dont own on vinyl does not help one iota. Critical listening to this was a complete bust. In the end I gave up and just sat back and listened to the music. It was only when I did this that I realised it is as good as it is. Afterwards I listened to the Aida I have on vinyl - the sound, as I said, was radically different but ultimately as enjoyable. Not more, not less. Sometimes I like Vanilla and sometimes Chocolate. So everyone who said - have both, just listen to the music and shut up - congratulations - you were right - it is the only thing to do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I like Bernstein's conducting of The Planets. It's not my favorite, but it's a powerful, dramatic rendition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 It wasnt Bernstein I was critisizing - sorry - it was the recording. Dull as ditchwater to listen to - no impact. Like the whole thing was compressed and recorded at half volume or something. God only knows. The CD blew it out of the water. I kept waiting for Mars to sound like the God of war rather than an accountant - but he didnt. This piece should hit with a bang rather than a soft shoe shuffle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Yea Max - I have tried to say this in various ways over the last couple of years, but never did it as well as you just did. Your message is exactly why I have so many variations - SS, Tube, HT, CD, TT, ADVD,etc. The quality of the recording is the issue and there are times it is best on vinyl and other when it is on CD (of some sort). To add my two cents - A supposedly remastered for digital, end all to beat all Led Zeppelin IV (the unnamed album) on CD played on the primary system with everything in tip top shape sounded OK. I decided to put on my 25 year old + vinyl of the same with my secondary system running through the old fisher 400 with my homebrew speakers (trust me - not shabby) and 'shazam' was it ever such a delicious experience. I cannot listen to the new CD now. Conversely, a beautifully mastered CD - Elton John's 'Madman Across the Water' blows the socks off my supposed master disk vinyl of the same. On never knows.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 Just for reference the Cd (which I am listening to now - ripped on the PC over the Stax is 8.550193 HOLST: The Planets / Suite de Ballet) Cost a couple of $$ from memory and well well worth it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 ---------------- On 12/3/2004 8:57:02 AM maxg wrote: It wasnt Bernstein I was critisizing - sorry - it was the recording. Dull as ditchwater to listen to - no impact. Like the whole thing was compressed and recorded at half volume or something. God only knows. The CD blew it out of the water. I kept waiting for Mars to sound like the God of war rather than an accountant - but he didnt. This piece should hit with a bang rather than a soft shoe shuffle! ---------------- Lenny's has plenty of impact here. There's at least 40dB of range from the quieter musical passages in Venus to the loudest of Mars, which is an exceptionally broad figure. Modern pop sometimes has about 2dB of range! For any LP to have more than 40dB range would be extremely rare. The quietest music would struggle to get above surface noise and room noise. I don't follow what you're saying about half-volume. Turn up your amp if you think it's too quiet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 " don't follow what you're saying about half-volume. Turn up your amp if you think it's too quiet! " For some reason playing this disk at the same volume setting as the Bach, for example, gave a very muted sound. I did turn the volume up, and up, and up till it was pointing at 3 o'clock - somewhere I have only been once for a party. Bearly scrapped above conversational level. Could there be something wrong with the individual disk? Anything else at this level would have blown me out of the room!!! (and I am not talking about the quiet bits - I mean the big hits! the quiet bits were ...well...quiet - but I was expecting that). 40 dB dynamic range? You are kidding. I would guess 10. Do we have the same recording? Could I have set something on the unit to restrict the dynamic range perhaps? There is just no way your description and my experience match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 2. Holst Planets / Britten Four Sea interludes - Leonard Bernstein - Sony Multichanel. Atrocious. when you listen to a multichannel SACD in stereo the quality does suffer...... this was mastered (i assume) to be played back on a multichannel system...... the downmix into two channels is a compromise at best.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 Now that is a thought MM. Actually I was listening to the 2 channel layer on the SACD. However, the player would allow me to listen to the multi-channel layer and downmix it for me. I wonder if that would work better - illogical as it sounds. Maybe Paul is listening to the MC mix...Paul???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 ---------------- On 12/3/2004 10:38:41 AM maxg wrote: Now that is a thought MM. Actually I was listening to the 2 channel layer on the SACD. However, the player would allow me to listen to the multi-channel layer and downmix it for me. I wonder if that would work better - illogical as it sounds. Maybe Paul is listening to the MC mix...Paul???? ---------------- you also need to make sure that it is an SACD two channel mix..... unfortunately, SACD has many different variants out there..... 1) SACD two channel only (no CD layer - no multichannel) 2) SACD multichannel only (no CD layer - no two channel SACD layer) 3) SACD multichannel hybrid (CD two channel layer and multichannel SACD only) 4 SACD multichannel/stereo hybrid (CD two channel, SACD multichannel, and SACD two channel) so when you are listening to two channel, you need to make sure which "two channel" it is.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Max, I am stumped about our very different perceptions here. I'm sure there is only one SACD of Bernstein/Planets. I'm sure this piece was recorded loud, because it sounds right only when it is played back loud. If something quiet, on the other hand, is played back so that it is ungodly loud, let's say someone on solo classical guitar, it'll sound all wrong. I think most people have experienced this. You shouldn't make the instruments sound louder than they are in real life. Your Bach recording was undoubtedly performed and recorded for a quieter setting, and you can sort of dial in where it sounds right. I wouldn't expect The Planets to come in to its own level at the same point as Bach. I measured the 40dB before posting on my Radio Shack meter. This wasn't measuring from a silent split second to a peak, but from the quietest extended musical section of Venus, with musicians playing, to the loudest parts of Mars. When you figure that a consumer RS meter can't fully register the fastest highest peaks anyway, the range is actually greater than 40dB. I of course have no dispute with you on whether or not you like the performance, or whether the recording appeals to you, as these are personal opinions. I'm just talking about the dynamic range. P.S. I was listening to the two-channel layer, actually, since I know you don't have a MCH setup. Depending on your equipment and setup, you could accidentally listen to two channels of a 5.1 channel mix, instead of the two channels of the two-channel mix. The only way this could possibly explain something as dramatic as you're describing would be is if you had only your two rear surround outputs (the ambient channels) feeding into your amp. That's not very likely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 Paul, There is no way this can be an issue of perception. I am half barking but I would have to be blind deaf and dumb living in a bombed out crater in Sadam Hussein's old basement to make this kind of mistake. I am going to take it back to the shop on Monday - test it there - and replace it if neccessary - which I have a feeling will be. There must be something wrong with this actual disk.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I have a Bartok (RCA) recorded using 32 mics. This mixed to two channel. Guess what that one sounds like? CRAAAAAAAAP!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Love the thread title Max! It's possibly not your genre of music, but this discussion reminds me of how rock used to be recorded vs today. Allow me to take a stab at this most cerebral thread. Then: Massive ex-carpenter drummer with the biggest sticks made, two, maybe three mics, cruddy preamps, no compression, no digital delay, no CD expanded dynamics, four tracks total for entire band, maybe eight. The test: John Henry 'Bonzo' Bonham, drummer for Led Zeppelin, frequently recorded live in a castle hallway for ambience with maybe total of three mics, no effects, mixed and pressed to LP. Sounds like cannons and the snare attack is like baseball bats exploding. Now: wimpy musicians tapping drum heads with digital pickups wired to trigger synthetic samples or highly gated and compressed acoustic drums tightly mic'd. 12 tracks or more used for kit with digital delays, plate echo, etc. Compressed again in the mix and then squeezed as loudly as possible onto CD, which boasts huge 'dynamic range' The test: all drummers sound like superman, with sound poppy in the upper bass, no real thud, you can hear compressers and limiters breathing in and out. CD 'dynamic' sound is like mush. I'll take the LP any day. Surface noise, what surface noise. Like scars on fine leather my friend. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 I'd like to hear more about this, how bout a little bumperino? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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