Scp53 Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 ok, i bought a 10" dayton titanic mk3 sub kit like many months ago(250watt plate amp and 1 cu.ft. sealed box). ive known for a while that the amp is too small for this congfig. so, ran some numbers through winISD and found that my sub is more underpowered than i thought. i found that in the music range, my sub only can move roughly halfs its excursion before the amp will start to clip(how audible is slight clipping?). can someone confirm this for me? ill give the link to the driver page http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber =295-414&ctab=2#Tabs click on the dumax report pdf for specs. im thinking DrWho and some others could help me here. my config is a titanic 10" mk3 driver in a sealed one cubic foot box-so you know what to put into a box design program. let me know if im right about needing more power. thanks a lot scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 bump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 my sub kit came under powered and im wonder what you guys think. right now, when i play music, it clips a lot if i turn it up. in the music freq range, it seems that 250 watts will only move it roughly half its excursion. i dont need to run it there but id like it to be able to with out clipping. when you model it, what do you think about where the amp will clip? how much power should i have(i think 500watts)? thanks scp53 edit- and no i m using no eq. just the x over on the sub(and lfe out from receiver). my x-over is only 12db slope so thats part of the problem. wish it was like 24db per octave. the only real fix to the prob would be using a 500 watt amp. and fyi for modeling, im using the 10in mk3 in a sealed 1 cub. ft box with 250 watts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 well theoretically you can run your sub at 500 watts provided you are absolutely certain you will have no information below 30Hz. Personally, I would stick with the 250watts and not worry about it (it's only a difference of 3dB anyway). If you really need more sub then I would suggest going with a larger driver in a larger ported cabinet. What makes you think your amp is clipping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted March 14, 2005 Author Share Posted March 14, 2005 i know its clipping because the cone doesn't dampen well at all. that only happens at about half its movement. but it depends on the song. (i think)in a sealed box the lower the freq the cone will move more than at a higher freq with the exact same amount of power. so songs that play lower freq will move the cone farther easier than songs that have higher freq. this would explain why my clipping is hardly audible in ht because its all lfe. not very much high stuff. when i modeled it in a sealed 1cu. ft. box with 250wts i noticed that the driver can only be driven roughly half way in the "music range" before it clips. i put it in winISD and set power to 250 and turned it to the cone excursion graph to see this. thanks scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted March 14, 2005 Author Share Posted March 14, 2005 i was thinking about getting the 500 watt amp to keep it from clipping and to take advantage of the parmetric eq on it. but at $300 for the amp, its not cheap at all. for that much i should have got the 12in kit to begin with. so about my only options are: build a different box ported build a different box and use PR or just add a PR to my current box id rather add the PR in a NEW box and not cut up the one i got now. then if it goes bad(if i model it right it shouldnt) i ll drop if back into the old box. tpg or DrWho id still like to know, are you finding(maybe you havent modeled it yet?) that my sub driver will only move about half its travel with 250wts in the music freq range? i had a few others on a diff forum tell my i could easily be asking to much of my amp in this config. im hoping you'll comment on this(i dont think you have yet). i think modeling it and looking at cone excursion graph will show this. thanks a lot scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 I'm going to need a better description of what you mean by clipping...I don't see how clipping and damping go together at all. The only thing I can think of is that the listed xmax is the physical limitation of the driver, but such that the voice coil is starting to leave the gap (or leave the magnetic area of the gap). However, if this is the case then getting a bigger amp isn't going to make a difference...I also don't think this is the case if the woofer is only moving half it's excursion. Would you happen to have any other amps laying around to verify if what you hear is actually clipping...I wouldn't think those plate amps would be capable of clipping. Max voltage from a LFE send is +12dB above the reference and the volume knob on the sub is just reducing that level. I would think the amp would be putting out the full 250watts with a +12dB input (which means no clipping). It really sounds to me like you are pushing the driver too hard (which isn't an underpowering issue). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted March 14, 2005 Author Share Posted March 14, 2005 let me say this, does sub clipping sound quite different than speaker clipping? i mean clipping at real lower freq is going to sound diff than at higher ones? and also, this driver is NOT leaveing the gap or anything while im playing it. im sure that the problems im having are not from a poorly designed driver or over driven one. im not quite sure i follow on the input signal and such. does the amp need a "full" signal to clip or something? i ve talked to other people on boards and no one has mentioned this so(and they say that the kits are underpowered)... and yes the amp can clip before shutting down. PE also has a amp that has "soft clipping" on it. thats what this amp lacks so you hear clipping. if you could, maybe send me a sound file(i know you've made them before) that has clipping in it at the 30hz-80hz area. then i can be POSITIVE that what im hearing is clipping. and the "clipping" only happens at peaks(ie-bass drum), not constantly(unless i really push it). thanks for helping me out of this confusion scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted March 16, 2005 Author Share Posted March 16, 2005 bump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted March 16, 2005 Author Share Posted March 16, 2005 the spl at which is occurs depends greatly on the content. music content vs ht(any where from 95db to 100db in room for music). i do agree with you that going up to 500wts wont make a big diff in spl. its just annoying to hear clipping. and my crossover is like 60-70hz. its hard to tell on the amp. when its not clipping it blends quite well with my sb3's or rb25's. im going to run some tones(10-15hz sin wave) because winISD says with 250wts i should be able to fully move its suspension and there for shouldnt hear any clipping(ill be VERY careful about it. im not planning on bottoming it). ill do the test when i get home today and then ill post back on the board. i was on the diy subwoofers forum and one guy suggested to record the sound as it played. he said i could play it back through wmp and see the clipping on the correct "visulazation"(the freq/eq one). he wasnt sure if it work but ill give it a try maybe. thanks scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 ---------------- On 3/16/2005 2:56:04 PM Scp53 wrote: i do agree with you that going up to 500wts wont make a big diff in spl. its just annoying to hear clipping. ---------------- I personally prefer not clipping an amp the distortion produced is very hard on drivers, even woofers. Most plate amps have very little headroom and sometimes have overrated power output (actually so are most receivers). You probably aren't getting the full 250W before clipping. Will moving up to a 500W amp make a big difference? It will have a greater sound quality effect than a SPL gain... so the difference won't be earth shattering. The Titanic MKIII seems to be excursion limited in a sealed enclosure below 30Hz and thermally limited above that. In other words... if your existing amp were truly giving you 250W, you'd have less than a 1.5db at 20Hz before reaching your excursion limit. What really happens is that not all you amp power is going into reproduce a single 20Hz tone when listening to music. The available power is being shared by many musical notes... and your gain will be in the ease with which your sub will reproduce the bass track. It's more than just DBs. Best option? My opinion? Enjoy your existing sub as is... and eventually upgrade to a 15" one. Still want to buy an amp? The 500W plate amp isn't your answer... you should look at getting something with plenty of overkill (1000W+), that you'll be able to reuse on your next bigger sub. A Behringer EP1500 for less money, is a better choice. Just my 2 cents... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 I don't understand how it could be clipping at 50-80Hz but not clipping at the lower frequencies. I just got out of surgery, but one of these days I can record a clipping 80Hz tone...I'll have to bust out a mic and record an actual speaker clipping (eek, that'll be loud in my house) because digitally created distortion sounds way different than a speaker clipping. When a speaker clips, it will either sound like a thud or clack (bottoming out, which isn't your problem) or it will sound like a chuffing sound (kinda like a low pitch version of those road bumps that make noise to wake you up). When an amp driving a subwoofer clips, it sounds like a buzz or a clack depending on the freuqency being played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted March 16, 2005 Author Share Posted March 16, 2005 DrWho, i dont think i ever said my amp never clips the lower frequencies. it does do it on the lower freq but happens most often on higher freq stuff. i think the clipping at lower frequencies is not as audible as at higher music frequencies? what do you think. should i put this sub in a ported box? ive modeled it and i get considerable gain. im sure it would remain pretty tight. tell me what you think if you can model it. someone on a diff board said i could do a transmission line setup or add a passive radiator. what do you think? thanks scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted March 16, 2005 Author Share Posted March 16, 2005 i mis read a post on the other board and i need to use the "scope" visual theme on wmp(not eq/bar visual). i tried it and i think it works ok(the top of the waves are cut off and that is clipping i beleive). ill record some more tones now and find out where clipping is happening. and if anyone knows of a free program that can show the waves and such let me know. id really like something better than wmp. thanks scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/wavetool.zip Btw, you still haven't described the sound that you think is your amp clipping... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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