fgarib Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Hey there, I remember reading many earlier threads about Erik experimentation with the Lexicon DC-1 processor, and got extremely interested. Just went through some of the threads again, and a few questions popped into my head. First of all: What differentiates the Lexicon to say Rotel 1096 or 1066. That too is a pre/pro, and from the reviews I've read, quite flexible as far as steering sounds to the various channels go. Got all the decoders for the various cinematic encodings, as well as "music-friendly". This is true for most such pre/pro's out there these days. Second of all: There are several available on Ebay quite regularly, but the ones that I have seen are the version 4 of the software. I remember Shawn stating that his was a slightly later version of the software, 4.2 I believe. Is it easy enough to update the software through the RS-232's or is that something that is not possible? Mainly, I get more and more interested in multi-channel music, the more I read into it. So, not to start a flame war of any sort, but it seems to me that the markets of non-vintage gear is very rapidly moving towards multi-channel. Is that an accurate reading? Because no matter what gear you get, and whether it new or used, multi-channel becomes quite heavy on the wallet. I wonder if the volumes are justifying this business. I'm planning on getting a used 5-channel Rotel 1075 to get started on this and was going to ease into a digital process also. I have a pair of KG 5's for the rears and a set of KEF references for the fronts. Would entering multi-channel with this setup be worth my while? Random questions, but your help is much appreciated. After all, you guys talked me into a Mac / KHorn 2-channel set up!! So your responses carry a lot of weight for me. Thanks, -F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 "First of all: What differentiates the Lexicon to say Rotel 1096 or 1066. " The processing in the unit which when you start getting into music in surround you will find is probably the most important part of the resulting sound. Lousy surround modes sound really bad. The Rotel will have a pretty good mode in DPLII Music but I personally like the modes in the Lexicon better as I think they give a more natural/seamless presentation and they also offer more tuning options. " There are several available on Ebay quite regularly, but the ones that I have seen are the version 4 of the software. I remember Shawn stating that his was a slightly later version of the software, 4.2 I believe." No, v4 was the last version of software on the DC-1. When shopping for a DC-1 there were four hardware versions (Base, THX, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital + DTS). For software you really would want v3 or v4.. there is not much different between v3 and v4 (THX Surround EX and a couple other minor things). There were a lot of changes made with v3 software so it is definitly worth waiting for a unit with either v3 or v4 in it. I think any v3 or v4 unit will be at least the Dolby Digital version. " Is it easy enough to update the software through the RS-232's or is that something that is not possible?" Nope. The DC-1 software upgrades where done through EPROM swaps and Lexicon no longer offers the software upgrades for the DC-1. " I get more and more interested in multi-channel music, the more I read into it. " Do you mean multi-channel as in processing that expands the music from 2 channels out to more channels or in native multi-channel music such as SACD or DVD-A? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgarib Posted April 21, 2005 Author Share Posted April 21, 2005 Shawn, "The Rotel will have a pretty good mode in DPLII Music but I personally like the modes in the Lexicon better as I think they give a more natural/seamless presentation and they also offer more tuning options." What sort of tuning options? Are they detailed and in depth enough to allow you to say send certain frequencies to certain channels? What sorts of flexibilities are available in the Lexicon that may not be available in the Rotels? "Do you mean multi-channel as in processing that expands the music from 2 channels out to more channels or in native multi-channel music such as SACD or DVD-A?" Actually, both. More so in 2-channel, however, because where I come from, SACD's and DVD-A's are not that readily available. Plus, the whole concept of deriving "more" out of a 2 channel is a really appealing concept. I read somewhere that the true meaning of "High-Fidelity" is (in simple terms) reproducing exactly what goes into the microphone at the time of the recording. Well, to me, this options seems more capable of creating the experience of "being there" rather than just what went into the microphone. -F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Hi, Fauzi: There are many questions I still have about surround sound, as well. I am such a beginner with it, that I really have many more questions than answers, and so am reluctant to say much about it. I can find my way around old-fashioned audio circuitry ok, but I have no where near the depth of understanding of this subject as does Shawn and some others here. The focus and source of my interest came from a simple weekend experiment with PWK's minibox, which simply and effectively combines the stereo channels into another to be used for a dedicated center channel. I was so astonished and pleased with the sound, that things just started to snowball from there; and we now have the Lexicon DC-1 you mentioned above -- although that only came to us after an initial audition of the same component kindly sent to us on loan, also from Shawn. I am getting much better at fine tuning the processor with and for our system, but I still am sometimes amazed by the fact that I'm sitting in a listening chair, holding a couple of remotes (for adjusting, etc.), surrounded by 7 speakers! I was previously such an advocate of two channel only playback (which still sounds good to me under certain conditions and with specific equipment)that the quick change is surprising. I just so much prefer what we have now, which I very much wish not to be taken as a reflection of my thinking surround is, in an absolute sense, better than stereo. I like it, and that's all. I have good friends and relatives who still much prefer stereo. In any event, I wish I could be more helpful. I really know nothing about the Rotel. Good luck, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 "What sort of tuning options? " More control in how the surround processing works. PLII Music has a couple of options having to do with center steering and front to rear balance. The Lex. offers those and more as well as additional processing such as bass enhancement which attempts to correct for differences in the bass reproducing in a home as how it would be in a hall. " to say send certain frequencies to certain channels?" Other then bass management no. The way good processing works is far more sophisticated then that. It works on phase and amplitude relationships between the channels and based on that decides where to sent the signal in up to 7 speakers. "Actually, both" The DC-1 doesn't have provisions for hooking up a SACD/DVD-A player. There is a company (MSB Tech) that can probably add a 5.1 channel input if desired but I don't know of anyone that has tried that. "Plus, the whole concept of deriving "more" out of a 2 channel is a really appealing concept." Yes, it is nice because it works with your existing software and you don't have to rebuy everything again. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Shawn indicated: "The DC-1 doesn't have provisions for hooking up a SACD/DVD-A player. There is a company (MSB Tech) that can probably add a 5.1 channel input if desired but I don't know of anyone that has tried that. "Plus, the whole concept of deriving "more" out of a 2 channel is a really appealing concept." Yes, it is nice because it works with your existing software and you don't have to rebuy everything again." I have been interested in exploring 5.1 channel possibilities, because I'm curious about the differences in software recorded in true, multi-channel format as opposed to 7 channels derived from the original stereo pair. However, Lexicon processing is able to provide such a strong illusion of 'real' and present music that whatever might be gleaned from SACD or DVD-A discs is more of an academic curiosity than something I would like to switch over to. 99% of the digital music we own is recorded in stereo, and so I am completely satisfied with what the DC-1 is able to create -- or more accurately recreate -- with stereo recordings. I had mentioned to Shawn over the weekend that I was having trouble getting a certain jazz trio recording to image correctly. This was in fact the one time I have experienced something with the DC-1 that didn't sound right to me, and found that trying its 'TV Matrix' mode brought things instantly into extremely fine focus. The music was suddenly beautifully suspended in front of me, and I could clearly place the position of the performers, not to mention the position of cymbals on the drum kit. 'TV Matrix' seems to provide possibly more center channel emphasis, and it just worked perfectly with this particular recording. 'TV Matrix' is a generic term, and has nothing whatever to do with whether it can also be effectively used for music playback. I just can't emphasize enough how clear, clean, and transparent this component is. As complex as it's inner workings are, it remains completely clear, with seemingly no audible compromise in frequency response. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Erik, " However, Lexicon processing is able to provide such a strong illusion of 'real' and present music that whatever might be gleaned from SACD or DVD-A discs is more of an academic curiosity than something I would like to switch over to." As far as DVD-A goes if there is some multi-channel software in that format you want to hear you could play back the 5.1 DD track that would be on the DVD-As with the Lexicon. Some also have a DTS track which you could use as well. What you wouldn't be able to do is listen to the actual DVD-A (MLP) encoded 5.1 track through the Lexicon as it doesn't have the inputs into it. Yup, TV Logic isn't just for TV. That is just what Lexicon calls it. It is very similar to Music Logic just with its settings tweaked a little more for TV broadcasts. I'm curious what was different about it that made that CD work well for you. It might have been the 'Auto Azimuth' which corrects for channel level/phase imbalances. Music Logic doesn't have that so maybe that CD is just a little off enough to trip up Music Logic and when listening in TV Logic the Auto Azimuth was able to correct for it? If you are curious play the CD in TV Logic again and go into Effect Adjustment and trying turning Auto Azimuth OFF and see if the sound of that CD gets a little screwy again. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgarib Posted April 21, 2005 Author Share Posted April 21, 2005 Hmmmm... Interesting stuff. The only Lexicon processors available here are the new MC range, which are worth thousands of dollars. I'm on the hunt for a DC-1 or DC-2, but meantime, I think I'm going to get the Rotel 1068 and get started on this. I'm really curious to see how the imaging is improved. I shall write back more on it a little later. Thanks a lot for the help, guys. Regards, -F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted April 22, 2005 Share Posted April 22, 2005 Shawn said: "The processing in the unit which when you start getting into music in surround you will find is probably the most important part of the resulting sound. Lousy surround modes sound really bad. The Rotel will have a pretty good mode in DPLII Music but I personally like the modes in the Lexicon better as I think they give a more natural/seamless presentation and they also offer more tuning options." I think Shawn's response is a good one. While I would have been pleased with a Rotel, last year I bought a Classe processor (a little bit up the food chain) because of its better overall sound quality for music, both in two-channel, discrete multi AND matrixed multi-sound (taking a two channel feed and performing a nice, realistic, and seamless matrix for all 5-7 speakers). I love two-channel. But, there is nothing quite like having an excellent processor expanding a two-channel feed - all to large Klipsch speakers - where your rears sound almost as good as your mains. If a setup has separate amps for each speakers (I run separate amps for mains, center, and surrounds), try leaving off the front amps to see exactly how the rear mix sounds (or vice-versa: leave only the matrixed center on). With some processors, it is an eye-opener. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgarib Posted April 25, 2005 Author Share Posted April 25, 2005 Carl / Shawn, Thanks for the info. I finally went and got the Rotel as a loaner to try to get an entry point into multichannel, and I have to tell you, I am actually quite impressed. Still messing around with it, so I'll be giving more updates later on. But suffice it to say that this processor does not come across as highly flexible. As a matter of fact, it seems like it is geared towards very simple household usage. The bass management is controlled to the extent of digital crossover frequency in increments of 20 Hz. But the good thing is that you can set this to be different for each of the various surround modes. Other than that, I hooked up the processor fed it to a Rotel 5 channel power for the surrounds (KG's) , and my Mac integrated SS for the front KHorns. Even though I'm sure there is a lot of messing around to do with the setups, initial impression is.... Astounding. I love the concept of being surrounded by the sound where the different channels are playing different portions of the music, and it comes out as a whole piece the envelopes you. I don't know if anyone has encountered this problem, though. I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out a reference cd to set up the processor with. Any suggestions? More on this later. -F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgarib Posted April 25, 2005 Author Share Posted April 25, 2005 Shawn (and anyone else who can respond), A new Lexicon MC-1 is available here (even though I believe they're now discontinued) for slightly over $3,500. To me that sounds like a HECK of a lot of money. Worth looking into? -F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 "A new Lexicon MC-1 is available here (even though I believe they're now discontinued) for slightly over $3,500. To me that sounds like a HECK of a lot of money. Worth looking into?" In the US $3500 is WAY too much money for a MC-1. They typically sell between $1000 to $1600 or so. MC-1s are based on the same design as the DC-1 just with new DACs, ADC and line stage. The processing in a v4 DC-1 is the same as the processing in a v4 MC-1. For $3500 you could buy a brand new MC-4 or maybe even a MC-8. If you look around hard enough you might even be able to find a used MC-12 for that. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgarib Posted April 28, 2005 Author Share Posted April 28, 2005 ---------------- On 4/25/2005 8:17:21 AM sfogg wrote: "A new Lexicon MC-1 is available here (even though I believe they're now discontinued) for slightly over $3,500. To me that sounds like a HECK of a lot of money. Worth looking into?" In the US $3500 is WAY too much money for a MC-1. They typically sell between $1000 to $1600 or so. MC-1s are based on the same design as the DC-1 just with new DACs, ADC and line stage. The processing in a v4 DC-1 is the same as the processing in a v4 MC-1. For $3500 you could buy a brand new MC-4 or maybe even a MC-8. If you look around hard enough you might even be able to find a used MC-12 for that. Shawn ---------------- Hey Shawn, Sorry to keep bugging you every few days... A couple of things... After reading a bit more into the various models out there, I decided not to go for the MC-1. Though, fyi, he had brought the price down to about $2700. Going to buy a new MC-8, most probably soon, for round about $4k. What's your take on this? However, I just checked out a Meridian 568.2 at a friend's place. The tragedy here is that this guy had no clue about the processing power that he had hidden away on his audio rack. To him, it was just a cool piece of equipment with a cool remote control that sits on the table. But after reading through the manual a bit, it sounds like this unit offers quite a lot of flexibility in the various modes for both theater and music as well. Anyone familiar with this unit at all? -F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 The MC-8 is a very good machine. It will have even more processing options then the MC-1 as well as newer versions of all of Lexicon's modes. It will have more bass management options and the ability to input DVD-A and SACD into it. The basic processing in it is the same as what is in the MC-12 just minus the microphone specific stuff (room calibration/correction) and the 3 subwoofer output options on the MC-12. Meridian's are good too. Their Trifield mode is nice sounding but not as immersive as Lexicon's IMO. I had an earlier Meridian for a time but ended up selling it to buy the DC-1 for my second system. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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