The Holy Grail? Has anyone done/considered doing this?

[JuHorvath]

Now, as most really good ideas do, this came to me last night while I was lying in bed. Has anyone considered a set-up of the following (or anything similar?)

RF7 mains

RC7 center

RF3 sides

RF3 rears

SVS Ultra

Now I know this set-up is INCREDIBLY expensive but if you do something like this when you set up your speaker system originally won't it help you stay away from the dreaded "upgrade my speakers" bug?

In this set-up you have 7 full range speakers (I consider the RC7 full range in this case, should I not?) Boa has discussed this and I have my local hifi guy checking into it since he can contact their sales reps but I believe that the new 8200/9200 Marantz models will be seven(!) powered channels and possibly include THX processing. If they don't I can't see them competing with the 7200 after all of the improvements that have been made from the 7000. A wattage upgrade of the 7200 just doesn't make business sense. This gets me all hot and bothered because the thought of that beautiful Marantz sound spread out through 7 full range speakers in DVD Audio or SACD multichannel........OK, back to the real world here. This set-up leads me to numerous questions.

1. In a set-up like this is THX certification absolutely essential? (once again back to the argument of whether THX is marketing fluff or necessary.)

2. Would it be a better idea to have another RF3 as a center channel instead of the RC7? (if so how would you set it up?)

3. With the full range capabilities in the speakers, would the SVS Ultra be overkill on the bass side?(would a 20-39 work just as good?) Would the range of these speakers make bass management functions (a weakness of the Marantz line) less important or more important?

4. How seamless would the integration of these speakers be?

5. Since the sides and rears are pointing at the listening position, if you are not in the "sweet spot" will there be a compromise in sound or would these RF3's in the rear and the back just serve to "fill up the entire room with that beautiful Klipsch sound" (since if I actually buy this set-up I will need to have numerous friends over to entertain......)

6. Would you need the RF3's on the sides and in the back raised off the ground?

7. Since these speakers are so powerful and efficient I wouldn't need any external amplification if the receiever was pushing 110x7, would I?

KLIPSCH MODERATORS I WOULD APPRECIATE SOME INPUT FOR THE FOLLOWING QUESTION

8. How big of a room do you need for this to actually make sense? (I will be bringing my tape measure with me today to get the dimensions of rooms where I would set this up. House hunting.....got to love it!)

9. If I do this, who is willing to come up and help me set this monster up?!?

I figure with this set-up the only real thing that I might look to upgrade in the future (easy to say now, isn't it!) is the receiver when new important technology is introduced, like Pro Logic 2 was recently. Sorry, I just can't see setting up RF7's around. That is just an embarrasment of riches if someone has actually done that.......... I am really interested to hear what Sounddog (since you have an INCREDIBLE system) Doug Drake, Boa, Talk to Keith, Anubis, the Borg, etc. and everybody else think about this. Thanks in advance for all your input!

Juan

This message has been edited by JuHorvath on 09-04-2001 at 10:05 AM

[eq_shadimar]

Well I am not sure that I can answer all of these questions but I will take a stab at some of it.

>RF7 mains

>RC7 center

>RF3 sides

>RF3 rears

>SVS Ultra

Would be an awsome system :-)

>won't it help you stay away from the dreaded "upgrade my speakers" bug?

hehe umm no...although it may hold it for awhile

>2. Would it be a better idea to have another RF3 as a center channel instead of the RC7? (if so how would you set it up?)

This would be hard to do unless you were going to be using a front projection system and could place teh RF3 behind the screen. Barring that the best possible mounting positoin (in my opinion) would be upside down (so the tweeter is closer to your ears) on top of the tv. I have no idea how you would do this thou :-)

>3. With the full range capabilities in the speakers, would the SVS Ultra be overkill on the bass side?(would a 20-39 work just as good?)

Even with these speakers I would still set them to small (crossover at 80Hz or so) and have a subwoofer. your room size would be the most important factor in deciding between a single or multiple Ultra/20-39's. I have Cornwall's as my mains and although it was hard for me to do (and believe) I set them to small per the advice of folks here and the whole system really does sound better this way.

>7. Since these speakers are so powerful and efficient I wouldn't need any external amplification if the receiever was pushing 110x7, would I?

Again really depends on your room size and the sound levels that you are trying to achive.

>9. If I do this, who is willing to come up and help me set this monster up?!?

Humm are you going to pay for plane tickets :-) Sounds like it could be fun :-)

Laters,

------------------

FOR SALE OR TRADE COMPLETE R*3 SYSTEM FOR 3 HERESY'S

Main System -

Cornwalls (L/R main)

RC-3

RS-3's (white)

SVS 20-39CS

Harman Kardon AVR 510

Hafler P505 (running sub)

ProMedia 4.2 v400 for PC

This message has been edited by eq_shadimar on 09-04-2001 at 10:35 AM

[boa12]

ju, yea i think that sys would be pretty nice indeed!

1st, on those marantz 82/9200 i was just speculating (or hoping) so don't get your hopes up for 7 powered channels. i wouldn't be suprised if they have just 6 powered channels as marantz is way behind denon on those featues & just starting to try to compete imo.

though marantz do have great audio quality assuming the new units are as good there as the sr8000. haven't heard the new 7200 though.

don't put too much weight on the adjustable crossover. the reason i'm griping about the lack of it is that my

klf-30s sound so good from 40-80hz & my velo hgs-18 sub

works so well from 15-40hz. may be a different case w/ the rf speaks. after hearing the rf-7, i think you'd be fine setting them, the rc-7 & rf-3 to small w/

a set (thx standard) crossover of 80hz. especially w/ those svs ultra from what i've heard. just get 2 ultra

to make sure

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Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect/Monster MCX-2 biwire & Z cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 digital cable box

Monster HTS1000 PowerCenter

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3, RC-3

Monster MCX-1 Biwire

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

rock on!

[Guest JimG]

At a family reunion at my house this weekend, I was asked to demo my home theater system. Several people there were home theater freaks and a couple were even big Klipsch fans who owned several pairs of Klipsch - their son even works for a Klipsch retailer. Needless to say, I was more than happy to oblige as it would be the first chance to show off my newly enhanced low-end set-up. As a product manager, my system is frequently changing, but anyways, here is what is currently in my main dedicated home theater in the basement and what was demo'd on Saturday:

RF-7 as LR

RC-7 as center

RS-3 as SL & SR (I haven't had time to hook up RS-7's yet, but that's next)

RSW-15 & RSW-12 (linked together) as LFE (15 is up front, 12 is behind the sofa)

Denon 4800

Sony DVP-S550D

Sony KP-53XBR200

(Other various sources too - unimportant for this discussion)

So, like moths to a flame, party-goers filed into the basement to hear what I do for a living. I figured three quick demo's should do the trick. First up was the U-571 depth charge scene from the last DTS sampler disc. I cranked up the Denon to -05 on the 'ol volume knob and let 'er rip, with the verbal warning of "if this is too loud for anyone, speak up!" My theater is about 15'x24' and I thought -05 should be pretty darn impressive. I hadn't really listened to this set-up yet at this volume so it was going to be new for me too. Let me just say that right off the bat, when the first depth charge went off, I had one guy literally stand up in his seat and cheer! A couple of the ladies jumped out of their seats. The subs were freakin' concussive and almost hurt! It was cool! Even cooler was the fact that the speaker set-up wasn't working all that hard! Several more people outside in the backyard heard the demo and also came downstairs to listen.

After U-571, I popped in the Matrix, starting with the elevator / there is no spoon scene and running up through the helicopter crashing into the building. Again, there were cheers (Yeah! Oh man! Yes!) from the guys when Keanu manned the gun on the chopper and laid into the side of the building. One person even mentioned how cool sounding it was when the knife caught that one dude in the face! Ahhh...sickness!

With my crowd now truly in awe, I thought I would whip out an' oldie but a goodie...T-Rex smashin' the Explorer in Jurassic Park. Holy crap batman! I was even impressed and I work here with this stuff every day! This was my first experience with the new Reference stuff in a home environment and it blew me away.

With my demo now over, I was told things like "I've never heard a home theater that sounded that good before!" and "I will have one of these within a month" (which, BTW, was followed by "No you won't from the guy's wife") and "when do those subwoofers go on sale?" and "Can I take these speakers home with me?".

I later on watched the Emporer's New Groove (excellent movie) with my son at considerably lower volume and was equally impressed with the systems performance at low levels. You still felt the bass and resolution was so good that I heard several things I had never heard before on the RF-3 / RC-3 set-up...and believe me, I have seen this movie many times! (Any of you with children around the age of three can sympathize I'm sure.)

I realize I'm tooting my own horn here (pun intended) , but I couldn't help it. It was awesome! I've been around a lot of expensive theater set-ups in my 7+ years at retail and 2 years here, but this set-up is the real deal! Is it the holy grail? No. Not yet. There is the little matter of RS-7's yet...maybe two pair for 7.1. Oh yeah, and the Denon will soon be leaving in favor of one of the new Aragon preamps and amps. Man, I like my job!

Jim

(Sorry for the rambling...I'm still excited!)

[Quenten]

Thank You!

[boa12]

or look at 2 rsw*

* i've yet to hear svs or rsw

[Steve Phillips]

boa,I've heard the RSW-15

And JimG

[BLOOMIS914]

Schhhhwwwwwing!!!! Jim your post makes me dying to demo the new RSW subs...Brought a big ole' smile to my face and I have a 3 1/2 yr old and a 1 year old. I know every Disney movie/DVD front to back..Thank God for Toy Story and The Emperor's New Groove..

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My system(s):

KLF-30's Bi-wired

KLF-C7 (2)

KSP-S6's (2 Pair)

KSW-15 Front Sub

KSW-100 Rear Sub

Chorus II's

Monster cable 14 gauge in-wall cable

Audioquest interconnects

Niles SPS-4 speaker switch box

Niles wall plates

Niles in-wall volume controls

Marantz SR-8000

Toshiba SD-4205 5 DVD changer

Pioneer PDF-1007 301-CD changer

Mitsubishi 35" TV

Mitsubishi VCR

Pioneer VSX-608 Multi-room amp for Outdoor deck

Polk All-weather AW2's deck speakers

Panamax DBS-8 Surge Protector

Klipsch IC-525's in Master Bath

13" Sony Wega in Master Bath

1 Lava Lamp for Ambience

Fridge full of beer and plenty of Don Julio, Jagermeister and Jim Beam

[HornEd]

JuHorvath, few quick pointers toward your Idaho ideal... and I have some Idaho elk farming relatives in Potlatch whose ears will vouch for what I have to say.

Two speakers make up more character for your Ht system than any other... I guess the same could be said for a two-speaker system since that's all there are!

But for HT, the Front Center is the most critical speaker for it handles upwards of 65% of the sound from most movie tracts. On the RC7, special attention is given to "voice frequencies" to keep dialogue clear and intelligible (i.e., tapered array). Personally, I prefer The mains and center speaker to be as close to the same as possible... and that makes three RC7's a good choice (as per BobG) given their dynamic range and the advantage of minimal changes of tone and timbre on sound pans. What ever you chose, remember that the Front Center will be providing the bulk of the detail... and the mains, side/surrounds and rear centers fill in the breadth and depth of your system.

The second key speaker is a quality subwoofer (or two) that will bring your sweetspot up to the 121.5 dB potential of the Dolby Reference Level. I hope no one is going to abuse their ears by cranking it up that high... but that what it takes for the mini-second of realism that frames the bass of your system.

In the case of multiple, high quality, subwoofers, splitting them will tend to have them cancel each other out. The best plan is to put all your subs into one good corner and enjoy the best your equipment has to offer. Whether ideal bass needs to come from one or more subwoofers has to do with how many cubic feet you are intending to fill... and whether their are hallways or open areas that will siphon off your lows.

Of course, the acoustic characteristics of your room (particularly sound reflecting and absorbing surfaces) are most important in this critical lowest range... which describes the depth of your system.

When you are into truly great subs, you should expect an ability to replicate intricate musical passages and the most fearsome explosions with equal ease! I haven't heard the RSW family from Klipsch yet... but early reports make me eager to do so.

In the interim, your SVS pick looks good to me. IMHO, putting all your speakers on SMALL and letting a good sub do the arduous work of cranking out everything in the non-directional bass range is, by far, the best approach. 121.5 dB (Dolby HT Reference Level) is so hard to come by that adding an SVS Ultra (or two) is by no means "overkill." And, as for smoothness, setting your speakers to "SMALL" and putting your subs in the same "bass" corner (front or rear should make no difference in non-directional sound frequencies)provides the best chance of smooth interfacing between subs and the rest of your speaker array.

The "THX" thing is an interesting but not mandatory sound system watchword. While it speaks toward "good sound"... great sound comes from systems that exceed THX parameters. Klipsch was an early licensee of the THX standard... but seems now to be more concerned with redefining the "Klipsch Sound" as "forcefully accurate" and easy listening to the ear. The better the speakers and equipment you chose, the less important the "THX" authorization is.

As far as the RF7 "embarrassment of riches" is concerned... forget it... particularly if you have a larger than average room. In my large room experience, the closer the mains, side/surrounds, rear centers and front centers are to being the same... the better your HT and multi-channel music will sound. Cinema sound engineers generally presume all speakers to be the same in your set up... so (with the exception of the specialized construction required in subwoofers) why alter the sound with different kinds of speakers?

If you want to use some RF3's... buy a pair and mount them so the horn is about 6' high and to the left and right of your mains... they should make great front effects speakers... set them about 5 dB's under your mains and you will crank up your system enjoyment yet another notch.

But, alas, a good ear is a fickle master... and the desire for change always seems to tickle the cochlea! Indeed, keeping one's Klipsch equilibrium is a "hairy experience!"... as well the Soundog should agree. HornEd

------------------

"Where Legends Live! Klipsch Powered HT"

FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 Center, KLF 30 Mains, KLF 10 Front Effects

BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 L&R Side/Surrounds, KLF 30 Rear Effects

LARGE MOUTH BASS:

Twin SVS CS-Ultra sub with Samson Megawatt Amp

SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808

and such... Tweakin' On!

Music Respite Room: Cornwalls & SVS 16-46/Ultra

Klipsched Motor Home SB2's, KLF C-7, ???, Yamaha 5-disc DVD/CD 996,

Under Construction

[JuHorvath]

Ed,

I'm sorry that you have any relatives who actually live in Potlatch. I graduated college from the University of Idaho and a couple of guys in my fraternity were from Potlatch. Lets just say, they never lived it down......

Are you recommending that I don't use the RF7's as fronts? When I was talking about "an embarrasment of riches" I was implying having RF7's for fronts, sides, rears, etc. That would be something to behold.......

If the Marantz 8200 doesn't have the 7th powered channel I will likely wind up picking up a couple Marantz 500 series monoblocks to power the mains and buying the 7200. Early report on the 8200 is that Marantz still has a lot of the 8000 out there and needs some of this extra inventory sold off before they are willing to ship the 8200's. No specs yet but I have someone checking into it for me and hopefully will have something by the end of the week. I will post the info when it becomes available. If only the SR19-EX had Pro Logic 2 this whole process would be so much easier!

Thanks again to everybody for the advice. One quick question, for this set-up what do you think the minimum room size should be?

Juan

[HornEd]

Juan, my sister moved with her husband from California to Potlatch about thirty years ago. She has been the kindergarten teacher there all that time raising generations of Potlatchers for the sport of fraternities at the University of Idaho.

I believe six RF7's would make a dazzling array and so would six RC7's. If a room is at least 14' x 23' I have found that full range speakers are much preferable to the ones (like WDST) that are predicated on obsolete ProLogic "ambient" sound cues for their effect. I expect the new standard will be six discrete channels with the rear channel hosting two speakers to provide broader coverage in a wide room. Some receivers, like the one I use, convert 5.1 automatically to 6.1 and that is good. Just as the dedicated center channel was slow to gain favor... I expect the rear channel to gain favor and become a standard.

I have heard RF7's but not in conjunction with an RC7. My understanding is that they match extremely well. The front center speaker is the keystone of HT... and the subwoofer(s) provide the depth of realism that should be targeted at Dolby's Reference Level of 121.5 dB. I use a matched pair of SVS Ultras to exceed that level... and it truly makes HT and music come alive!

It sounds, Juan, that you are determined to have a fine Klipsch system... more power to you. ... and keep on tweaking! HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 09-05-2001 at 04:18 PM

[JuHorvath]

Ed,

If they have lived there that long I'm sure they know my friends. Here's a few names to run by them Cole Bryngleson, Terry Haddock, Cary and Gabe Baker. All of these guys are vets from the 'Latch. I don't think RF7's around would be possible (not saying I wouldn't like to try!). I'm just wondering if the RF3's along the sides and rears would match well with the RF7 mains and RC7 centers. I am interested in hearing the new RF3 MkII's to see if the reworking with monster cable really effects the sound or not.

Juan