toussi1 Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 I was looking in the Port today and noticed there is no visible stuffing? I always thought that high quality subwoofers had stuffing inside and is very recommended. Am i not see the stuffing or did klipsch not put any in??? ------------------ http://www.autodirectsave.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 "I always thought that high quality subwoofers had stuffing inside..." Yes ported subs should have damping materials inside to minimise the unwanted port boominess(coloration). I have the KSW12 and 15 and I did not investigate on the inside.The sound after a good break in and when cut no higher then 80Hz should not be too boomy. You can remove the driver and put some stuffing if you want.Just dont put fiber glass stuffing,this is on the not to do list.Fiberglass fibers break and you can breathe some when the sub works at very high volumes(ported design). As all good quality subs use stuffing,NO its not a rule.Velodyne HGS and Sunfire subs use NO stuffing at all and perform damn well,no boominess from my Sunfires.The thing is they are all sealed and the cabinets are so rigid the can be no audible boominess. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toussi1 Posted September 19, 2001 Author Share Posted September 19, 2001 Do what do you think? Should I install stuffing inside? by my ears, there seems to be alot of boomyness in the 60HZ range; maybe its the room. I have the crossoever at 40 HZ but still not much help... I hear that stuffing can reduce the FS? Deeper bass? ------------------ http://www.autodirectsave.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 I noticed this boomyness too,this is why the sub is alongside the main wall and far from corners.With some changes(crossover and placement)I managed to reduce the boomy side to a minimum. Sure try to stuff the sub,this should help. I may try this on my KSW12 and 15 later,for now its A ok.I dont use the subs for any serious listening.Just with my computer for games and MP3's.Mostly techno,so finesse is not on thetop of my priority liste here. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 Stuffing the inside of the subwoofer cabinet will alter the sound of the sub. Exactly how the sound will change may not be easy to predict. In most cases, placing some sort of batting inside the cabinet will result in an "over damped" alignment. Any peaks in the, uh, upper lower bass ( ) say around 40 to 60 Hz should be reduced, the lower limit might be a few hertz lower, the sensitivity will be reduced, the bass might sound a bit "tighter" but may lose a bit of "slam". If you do this, make sure you don't pack a lot of insulation around the amp, which might cause it to overheat. Also, don't let the batting rest against the back of the woofer's cone. Note that MANY of the HIGHEST QUALITY speakers don't use batting inside the cabinet. Theil, for example, doesn't use it, Klipsch doesn't use it in most of their main speakers (my CF4 have open cell foam inserts placed against the interior cabinet walls, but no "stuffing"), many others. Many do use it, of course, but don't assume that lack of stuffing indicates lack of quality. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toussi1 Posted September 26, 2001 Author Share Posted September 26, 2001 Thanks for the info... Yea, slam is not an issue anymore, since i can't turn it up too much anyways because of my ears and the threat of something breaking in my room (9x10x8). And 50-60 HZ bass simply gets annoying when in excess, ears start hurting. I geuss if am expecting too much from this sub. But, it won't be my first sub. I will surely eventually build me one of those SonoTubes with a good 15". And the reason why i think this sub doesn't go down flat to 20 is because the Box is TOO small. Klipsch designed this sub for higher SPLs, and attractiveness. I am sure if they gave it another cubic foot it would go deeper. I run sound generators at 20 HZ and the Sub is viberating, and lots of air comes from the port, its just the box that isn't designed for 20HZ bass. ------------------ http://www.autodirectsave.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 uh, 9 X 10 with an 8 foot ceiling? I think any sub might sound a bit "boomy" in there... you may want to try some acoustic treatments to flaten the bass response... either the ASC Tube Trap products, or a reasonable facimile thereof... if you don't have spousal acceptance factors to consider, try taking a couple of empty packing boxes, (about the size of the one the sub came in, if you still have it), fill it loosely with crumpled up newspaper, and put it in one of the corners. This makes a fairly effective bass trap, and might reduce the boominess without your having to mess around with the sub. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toussi1 Posted September 26, 2001 Author Share Posted September 26, 2001 Oh, room size is actually more like 9X10 X 5-8feet ceillings. I don't think i have the room to put boxes in the corner, nor buy expensive foam for the walls. I don't want to make my room look Hideous! Its already crammed with a computer, SF-2's and a bed, Another unused 8" subwoofer with alot of other Shiit . ------------------ http://www.autodirectsave.com This message has been edited by toussi1 on 09-26-2001 at 11:21 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 I agrre with you Ray,it does in no way mean that when a sub has no stuffing does it sound bad. A few examples are Sunfire subs and the HGS Velodynes,the cabinet is rigid and these are also sealed.The damping would not help much(if at all). The KSW12 does have a bump around 60Hz,the stuffing should have a positive efect.Sure less output,but better accuracy.And in most cases the added output is not worth the extra boomyness. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toussi1 Posted September 26, 2001 Author Share Posted September 26, 2001 So today i got the acousta stuf. If you ask me it looks like pillow stuffing. (just cost me like twice as much). The directions say to Line the walls of a Ported box with the material. It says use some 3M spray Glue. Well, I don't have any, nor do i want to spend another $5 for this little project. I will probably use a little of rubber cement type glue, and that should do the trick to hold it in place. I am just afraid that if the amp fails on this KSW-12 in the near future, i would have altered the interior and they could say its a VOID of warranty. I have noticed that this amp runs pretty hot when you have the sub running LOUD. What do you think. ------------------ http://www.autodirectsave.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted September 27, 2001 Share Posted September 27, 2001 If the "acousta stuf" is decent quality batting designed specifically for application inside loudspeakers, the reason it cost more is (hopefully ) it manufactured to be more linear with frequency that typical fiberglass, cotton or wool batting would be. Stuff like 3M pink fiberglass insulation, for example, is not made to dampen speakers, it's made to insulate houses. When you cramm (?spell?) a bunch of it in a speaker, it dampens some frequencies much more agressively than other frequencies, and can result in making the speaker sound worser than it did without the batting. This is not so much of an issue with a subwoofer, as you're talking about an octave or one and a half octaves at most, so there's not so much of a chance that the damping material is going to have some sort of weird tendency to kill some frequencies and not touch others. As to glueing this stuff to the inside of the cabinet, I'd stick it in there without glueing it first, and see if it made any positive change. If so, then go back in and stick it down. As the cabinet of the KSW-12 is not all that large, you may not need to glue the batting in place, provided the batting is rigid enough to hold its shape. Hummm, having just typed that, it occurs to me that NOT glueing it in place might be a bad idea, as the air movement inside the sub is pretty fierce and I doubt the batting will stay in place by itself. Whatever you use to stick it down, I'd make pretty damn sure that the glue was dry and the interior of the cabinet was vented out before I closed it back up and turned it back on, otherwise you might ignite the vapors inside the box when the amp heated up. Which, while looking quite spectacular, would probably void your warranty. Assuming you could find any pieces of the sub against which to make a warranty claim... Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toussi1 Posted September 27, 2001 Author Share Posted September 27, 2001 oKAY, SO DID IT. I opened the Box up, and found a rather weak looking subwoofer. First, its a steel basket with a maybe 30 ounce magnet and vent. Then i realized how shitty the wiring to the subwoofer was. It was 20 GUAGE WIRE!!! I couldn't belive it! How would klipsch go so cheap. How much more does good 16 guage cost? So i removed the wiring and got some left over 16 guage radio shack wire. Crimed the connectors on and installed it. Rhe box already had foam. However, the foam was layed in their bad. The foam was just sitting in the middle of the box. So i removed it, cut it into 3 pcs and attached them to 3 walls. Then i loaded the box with some acoustic stuffing, just a little (1/2 pound). So, does it sound any better? Well, honestly its not a whole lot different than before. It could be a Tad deeper, and a Tad better sounding. Would i recommend everybody do this? Well, i don't see it doing any harm if you have 1 hour free time do it! ------------------ http://www.autodirectsave.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toussi1 Posted September 27, 2001 Author Share Posted September 27, 2001 I notice that the sub produces excess port noise at or below 32 HZ... Put it seems if i cover the PORT with something, there is more deep bass when i am running the sound generator. So do you think if i stuff the Port this will turn into a sealed box and may sound deeper? ------------------ http://www.autodirectsave.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I wouldn't say Klipsch was being cheap (at not in a negative sense) by using the wire, magnet and driver basket you're talking about. A powered subwoofer's designer can choose to use the best quality parts, hang the expense, on the theory that whether it really helps or not, at least it's going to be the best it can be, with no constraints. Call this choice A. Or, he can go with the absolute minimally expensive pieces that his engineering training, background, electrical theory and design software indicate is needed, and if he can save 0.2 cents on 18 inches of wire by using 20 gauge instead of 18 gauge, well, that's 0.2 cents that goes directly to the bottom line, and unless theory says that 9 inches of 20 gauge is inadequate, why not? Call this choice B. Or he can take a middle ground, be a little conservative, select parts that are either a bit overspeced or have a reputation as being "better sounding" than some other electrically equivalent parts (say, using some "high end" capacitors in the crossover instead of the Radio Shack version). Call this choice C. The choice A guy either works for Krell, Ariel Acoustics, JMLab, Wilson Audio or some other company with a reputation for over the top engineering that will justify the (apparently) hideously overpriced subwoofer he's just built, or he's out of a job. The choice B guy produces a speaker that costs a WHOLE lot less than the A guy's speaker, probably significantly less than the C guy's speaker, looks cheap as all heck when you open it up, won't win over any high end reviewers who might be swayed by the apparent cost-cutting approach and skimpy parts selection, but probably sounds almost as good, if not indistinguishable from, the speaker the A guy built, assuming they both had the same design targets. For example, as you found, swapping in heavier wire didn't really seem to have much of an impact. However, if this guy is working for a new or unproven company without a good track record for reliability and warranty service, and without a well known name, he's gonna have a tough time selling this design to a skeptical public. The choice C guy probably won't come up with a speaker that sounds much, if any, better than the B guy, and it's gonna cost more, but he's going to have much less of a hard time justifying whatever he charges for it to anyone who uses any criteria other than "How does it SOUND?" when they look at it. I think the original Heritage series fell into the B group, believe it or not, except when it came to cabinet construction, which was done to furniture grade standards. However, if you look at the hookup wire, crossover components and drivers used in the older Klipschorns, Belles, et al, I bet a lot of folks would be surprised. Paul didn't believe in spending money unless he got some clear benefit. Most speakers I've seen built by most companies tend to fall into the choice C group. I think the new Klipsch Reference series falls here, for example - did they really need to spend the bucks on Monster Cable? Would they sound just as good with some other wire in the box? In most systems, with most of the other equipment they're going to be used with, to most people, under most conditions, most of the time, I'd bet they would. But using Monster Cable sure won't make them sound WORSE, and it MIGHT help them sound better, and it SURE looks and sounds better to say they used Monster Cable than some generic Home Depot 12 gauge copper wire. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toussi1 Posted September 28, 2001 Author Share Posted September 28, 2001 After i added 1/2 pound acousta stuf i wasn't too happy about the results. I added Another 1/2 pound and i am happy to say this sub sound more deep and cleaner than before. So i would recommend anyone to do this. ------------------ http://www.autodirectsave.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Quite a lecture Ray,helps most cope with 30oz magnets and Home Depot wires!LOL Yes most dont need Krell amps and Aerial or Dynaudio speakers.This is why few(% wise)buy them,but for some,like me its worth the extra expense. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 quote: Originally posted by toussi1: After i added 1/2 pound acousta stuf i wasn't too happy about the results. I added Another 1/2 pound and i am happy to say this sub sound more deep and cleaner than before. So i would recommend anyone to do this. Good to read this, can you post what are you measuring and how? you say you have a sound generator, do you have also an SPL meter or an RTA software? I also have a KSW12 and would like to make it sound better, less boomy if possible and of course a deeper sound doesn't hurts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toussi1 Posted October 1, 2001 Author Share Posted October 1, 2001 I have a computer software sound generator. I don't have an SPL meter. I just have ears. After everything i did to it, it sound cleaner, less boomy and more musical. I put 1 pound of acousta stuff + the stuff that was in it already + replacement wire. ------------------ http://www.autodirectsave.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 I see. Then I will ask you to post where did the sound wasnt there anymore before and after your work. You mentioned that at 20Hz there were only air and vibrations but no appreciable sound, I assume that at the rated 26Hz there must be a sound and then it is lost going down. With your modifications that changed? What are your impressions before and after? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toussi1 Posted October 1, 2001 Author Share Posted October 1, 2001 20 HZ bass is now more there than before... but not huge differnce. Still i get lots of port noise. The only thing i can think would be to cover the port. I think the sub sounds better with the port closed, no more port noise. ------------------ http://www.autodirectsave.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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