K-horn vs. Belle

[allimsayin]

so I have lurked in this forum for quite some time, and knew that this would be the place to ask a question like this and get the opinions that

I need. I have a great pair of 80 K-horns that im pushing with a integrated 300b set amp. the problem that I have is that they are prisoners in a listening

room that is only 13 by 10. the sound is golden but I think that im not getting what I can out of the speakers. they really just dont image that

well in the room. I have the corners for them, but with the small room im almost in a nearfield listening set up. I have an opportunity to trade them for a pair of Belles. the question is will I get more out of the room with the Belle than the K-horns? what are the good years for the Belle?

thanks

[Colin]

which wall are they on? how far away do you sit? how bright is the room? what treatments do you have in the room? can you angle the Khorns at all?

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horns, tubes, subs, leather couch & female vocalists

[WMcD]

I think that you've got a handle on the problem.

The limited size of the room is causing difficulties, or as you say, you're always in the near field.

The Belle's will be a small step down in the bass response, but I think you'll have the same problem. The distance issue isn't going to change. I'd not advise this trade.

My suggested solution would be a Heresy as a center channel. I'm a big fan of center channel.

I've created a center channel mixer using three Radio Shack line transformers. This allows my two channel amp to drive a center and get true L + R. No, no harm to the amp. Frequency response is good.

If you want to go this way, I'll send you a schematic.

The alternative is another tube amp with a passive mixer to drive a center channel.

This all makes sense because HT people routinely run a center channel in small rooms, with small speakers, and report good results.

Gil

[TBrennan]

With the KHorns you are locked into one "firing pattern", you can aim the Belles as you please which might be of benefit. Try pulling the KHorns out from the corners and experiment with the aiming, if you get better sound thusly then the Belles would be a good way to go providing you don't mind the lack of low bass compared to the KHorns. Experiment before you commit.

[Q-Man]

I would stick with the K-horns. They will take up less room then the belles, since they are tight in the corners. You won't be happy with the belles lack of low end bass after being used to the K-horns. It's hard to take a step downward from the K-horns.

Q.

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Q-Man

[Chris Robinson]

Maybe this is the place to ask this question ... AM I NUTS?

I just bought a pair of 1979 Khorns off of Ebay for $1099 ... They're raw birch refinished to a walnut color; he says they're not cosmetically perfect but otherwise they play fine. I caught the auction right after it started at $750 or so, with a Buy It Now feature for $1,099. I've hardly ever seen a late-'70's pair go for that price. I'll have to drive to Philly to get them and I don't really have a room for them, but it seemed to me like a bargain if they are "as represented".

What do you guys think? Anybody know anything about that particular year ("T" in the s/n, assume it's '79) as being bad or good?

I'm thinking I'll put them in storage for the "next house" (think music room), with the Khorns up front, my Belle in the middle, and my old '68 Cornwall II's in the rear.

Someone tell me I didn't screw up!

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Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF)

ALK Belle Klipsch (Center)

Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR)

Klipsch KSW-12 sub

Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls)

Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's)

Denon AVR-4800

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

[Chris Robinson]

Correction: They're "P" in the s/n, so they're 1976. Any thoughts on THAT year???

Thanks!

[John Warren]

Chris-the S/N or year of manufacture is the least of your worries!!

Make sure that they are not water damaged. In the 30 yrs I've been involved in audio, I've seen ALOT of large systems that have had thier "feet wet" at one time or another. Klipschorns and most other large, floorstanders almost ALWAYS do a stint in a garage or basement.

[JonM]

My K-horns are "P vintage" (1976). I love 'em. They have the later K55V squawkers (which I have read don't have the 9 kHz resonance problem) with the metal horn, and the K77M tweeters. I damped the mid and tweeter horns w/ mortite, and despite purists' admonitions to the contrary, I stuffed the woofers' back chambers w/ polyfill. In my room, that helped a woody resonance in the lows. Mine are walnut w/ the cane grills - kind of retro. I think the '76 versions have a nice complement of drivers. I paid well over $1100 for mine, with no regrets. Enjoy!

[allimsayin]

William,

im interested in how you run the center channel.

so many Khorn owners do this? what kind of results

in sound do you get? thanks

Collin,

i dont think i understand the question of

if i can angle the Khorns? do you bring them

out of the corners? i dont have the corners on

the long wall and the room is dead.

[Ray Garrison]

The point about angling the KHorns is that bringing them out of the corners and trying different "toe in" angles and placements will let you evaluate whether the midrange and top end will sound better than what you have now if you go with a Belle or La Scala. The Belle, La Scala and KHorn sound very similar to each other from the upper bass on up. Pulling your KHorns out of the corners and moving them around the room will result in a loss of the bass response the KHorns are so good at producing, but it will help you evaluate whether you'd gain anything by going with the other speakers.

Note that the Belle is going to lose almost an entire octave of bass response compared to properly sited KHorns. You might need to reinforce the bass of a Belle with a subwoofer.

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

[edster00]

allimsayin,

As has been previously stated, the biggest difference (besides size) in the K-horn and Belle is in bass response.

I have both K-horns and Belles, I had my Belles first and I had them angled into the room so I was looking pretty much "down the throat" of the horns at my listening position.

When I got my K-horns I placed them in non-perfect corners on a short wall (I cannot use the long wall). My room is ~14' x 18', with the K-horns on the short wall they were angled several feet in front of my listening position. I turned the K-horns so that I was once again "looking down the throat" of them and I like the sound much better. I have enclosed the bass bin (sort of) with 3/4" mdf sheets and the sound is great. I am sure it isn't as good as if they were in proper corners, but I am quite pleased!

If you are looking for a bit smaller speaker I would try for a pair of Cornwalls!

Good luck!

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Ed W

[soundog]

Chris- $1099 is a good price for a pair of Klipschorns IF they are in good working order ... a pair in good shape go for $1500-2000. If the cosmetic flaws are acceptable to you, you got a good buy.

[allimsayin]

so I took the advice about moving the horns out of the corners and started playing around with their firing position. the bass just dropped right out of them, so I guess that ends my ideas about the belles unless they have more bass than the Khorns do out of the corner. the question that came for me was-

can you and has anyone takes the top of the Khorns off to aim them in a different direction than the basses? the mid and high horns dont need the corners do they?

[Steve Phillips]

The tought about taking the top off of mine has crossed my mind too,but I think my wife would kill me.

Take the side grills off,wingnuts hold them on.The same for the tops.There are just one on each side of the tops,at the bottom of the top part of the bass section.

I thought about doing just what you are thinking.I have the same problem with wanting to change the toe in.

I have listened to edster00 K-Horns and was supprised with the bass.You should have a least 4'out from the very back corner,but even the short pieces work very well.Make some attached corners,just cover the baas section,they don't have to go all the way to the top of the speaker.

Have thought about it,but it would not look good in my living room

[Kevin Merritt]

Belles like big rooms. I would stick with the k-horns if they sound OK. I wouldn't recommend a Belle in a room less than 13 x 16. 20 x 30 is better...