be patient I'm a newbie

[strutter]

I've been trying to figure out how to connect a older Sherwood 2 channel receiver 150 watts per channel @ 8 ohm to a not as old Denon 5.1 avr683 80 watt per channel @ 8 ohm . my intention is to get more watts. per channel out of the Denon. can this be done? if so exactly how do you accomplish this?

[Olorin]

Does your Denon have preamp outputs on it?

[travisc]

welcome to the klipsch forums

That is a cool avatar dude

went to the denon site for ya looks like you only have a sub out, so I am afraid you cant connect external amps

[colterphoto1]

you can use any tape out as a pre out, connect to the tape in of the next receiver to chain them up.

What you CAN NOT do is hook two amps up to the same speaker at the same time. It'll smoke one of the amps. With your receivers chained together you can play multiple sets of speakers at the same time, or use a switch box to play EITHER through the same speaker, one at a time.

Remember, that to get any substantial increase in volume, you have to at least DOUBLE the wattage, in other words, going from a say 25 watt amp to a 40 watt amp isn't really much increase to worry with.

Michael

[strutter]

if its supposed to actually be labeled pre amp out ....then no.

[strutter]

thanks travisc.....glad to be here....some other forums arent very newbie friendly.[]

sad to hear that i may not be able to connect the two. i suppose i'll have to look at other ways to feed more watts to the F-3's

[strutter]

colterphoto1, interesting. could you elaborate on everything you said. I'd like to understand that better

[colterphoto1]

From your low powered Denon, receiver A, any out is an out. It doesn't really matter that much if it's labeled pre out, pre amp out, aux out or tape out. They all pretty much send whatever signal source youve selected from the preamp OUT. So just pick one.

For your other more powerful Sherwood ampB, just plug the cables from above into the main in, or any tape in, In is in, get it? It doesn't matter that much just so long as you know which one to select (don't use the phono in, that's the only one that's different)

Using this you can still use the other channels from your main receiver A to power center and surrounds, and yes mains, if you wish. The SAME SIGNAL will also be sent to the other amp, possibly to power main L/R speakers. Just know that for this added complexity, you will gain only a whopping 3 db. Your are essentially going from 80 to 150 watts, a doubling of power (in your main speakers) which yields 3 db more power. IT's possible the Sherwood is cleaner power or has more headroom, so it might appear what we call 'ballsier'. Plug it in and see, it might not be worth rebalancing the volume every time you make an adjustment. But good thinking to put the other amp to use.

YOU MAY NOT plug both amps into the SAME SPEAKER cabinet unless you want to smell burnt electronics. That is a NO NO under any circumstances.

Michael

[dragonfyr]

colterphoto1, interesting. could you elaborate on everything you said. I'd like to understand that better

Now you're in trouble!

New and already confusing Michael![][][6]

How can anyone blame me for not passing this one up!?[][]

[strutter]

thanks Michael, great elaboration, now i understand.

dragonflr.. i like your signature.. its like I don't know what I don't know

[colterphoto1]

colterphoto1, interesting. could you elaborate on everything you said. I'd like to understand that better

Now you're in trouble!

New and already confusing Michael![][][6]

How can anyone blame me for not passing this one up!?[][]

Thanks dragon, I needed a little chuckle tonight. That was an easy one.

M

[DrWho]

I've been trying to figure out how to connect a older Sherwood 2 channel receiver 150 watts per channel @ 8 ohm to a not as old Denon 5.1 avr683 80 watt per channel @ 8 ohm . my intention is to get more watts. per channel out of the Denon. can this be done? if so exactly how do you accomplish this?

Just curious, why are you trying to get "more watts"? Are you unable to crank your F3's loud enough? Or do feel "more watts" is going to equate to a better sound?

At 1 watt your F3's are pushing out 97dB (notice the sensitivity rating on the website). For every doubling of the watts you get a 3dB increase in volume (so 100dB = 2 watts, 103dB = 4 watts, 106dB = 8 watts........115dB = 64 watts). 80watts comes to about 117dB of output. 150 watts is 119dB, so you're only going to gain 2dB by going with the Denon amplifiers. Keep in mind that this only corresponds to maximum SPL (SPL = sound pressure level and is a measure of how loud something is). I'm not really sure it's worth all the trouble just to gain a small 2dB.

And I dunno about you but 117dB (120dB with both mains playing) is extremely loud. Rock concerts are in the 100dB range, very very loud concerts are 110dB and you get permanent hearing damage listening at 120dB for more than a few minutes. Your system should totally be capable of making your ears ring.

I don't think you're going to achieve much more output outta your F3's considering they can only handle 150 watts max continuous anyway (so going with a much higher powered reciever won't be worthwhile either). A few dB isn't going to matter much at these volumes - and I bet you're only listening around 95-100dB when you're "cranking it" (which means your speakers are only drawing a 1 or 2 watts at the most).

[strutter]

Thanks a lot. i didn't know what 80 watts = in decibels. it does seem that i don't have much to gain by adding the 150w Sherwood. the system plays plenty loud in my 22'x27'x11' room. i was just really worried about clipping the amp and damaging the speakers. i do love it loud! and since the neighbor don't mind mowing lawn at 10 at night i don't mind cranking it early Sunday morning.[6]

[DrWho]

woh there...watts don't have a direct correlation with decibels. It's a function of the sensitivity rating for your speakers. A speaker rated at 80dB will be 80dB loud with 1 watt. A speaker rated at 90dB will be 90dB with 1 watt, etc etc. Basically the sensitivity of the speaker dictates the starting point and then you can calculate max SPL's and all that from there. One of the great thing about klipsch speakers is that they are so efficient, which means the amps aren't running as hard which almost invariably improves the sound.

[strutter]

so in your opinion is my worry about clipping an 80wpc amp powering klipsch synergy F-3's a necessary worry?

A speaker rated at 90dB will be 90dB with 1 watt, etc etc. Basically the sensitivity of the speaker dictates the starting point and then you can calculate max SPL's and all that from there

so does sensitivity = decibels? a 97 sensitivity = 97 decibels @ 1 watt?

[strutter]

At 1 watt your F3's are pushing out 97dB (notice the sensitivity rating on the website). For every doubling of the watts you get a 3dB increase in volume (so 100dB = 2 watts, 103dB = 4 watts, 106dB = 8 watts........115dB = 64 watts). 80watts comes to about 117dB of output. 150 watts is 119dB, so you're only going to gain 2dB by going with the Denon amplifiers. Keep in mind that this only corresponds to maximum SPL (SPL = sound pressure level and is a measure of how loud something is). I'm not really sure it's worth all the trouble just to gain a small 2dB.

just reread all this again.......veeeerrrrrryyyyyy sloooooooowly this time. i think i understand

so how does one determine SPL?

[travisc]

a radio shack spl meter for about $35, there are two available get the analog one. and yes you are correct in you interpretation. I would worry more about quality than quantity. Unless your listening at very loud levels you should be ok. how far do you turn the volume up? past three quarters of the way? Probly safe if you stayed below that as a general rule

[strutter]

the Denon volume is adjustable from -70 to 18db (don't know how accurate the db level is). lounging around listening to music i usually have it at about -10 and need to turn it down to hear people trying to talk to me. if I'm on the deck with windows open it may reach 0. kind of scared to go any higher but would like to be able to without damaging the speakers.

i fried 3 Denon surrounds 80wrms, 2 tweeters in technics floorstand 120wrms, (separate occasions, same receiver) with the volume never any higher than 5. (they weren't near as efficient as klipsch). that is the cause for my concern. i paid a whole lot more cash for klipsch than i have ever paid for a speaker before (probably more than all totaled). i don't want to screw them up.

by the way i have perfect hearing (tested yearly as work requirement) and have been loving it loud for a long time.

SWMBO on the other hand has nerve deafness (from birth) and tends to listen at higher volumes than i.

wish i could put a Governor on the volume knob to prevent her from inadvertently screwing up my speakers.

if i were to purchase a new receiver what is a good rule of thumb for wattage? 1.5x speaker RMS per channel?

(i know theres more involved than watts. THD,frequency response, etc, ) just questioning recommended watts right now.

[travisc]

ya dude thats pretty loud. I would look into some higher end powerful amps that are seperate from the pre/pro. B&K 200.7 s2 comes to mind but thats gonna cost ya around$2800. Hopefully you can get some good recommendations, I just dont listen any where near that kind of volume.

[DrWho]

so does sensitivity = decibels? a 97 sensitivity = 97 decibels @ 1 watt?

Yes. 1 watt is fed to the speaker and then an SPL meter is placed one

meter away - so the rating is measured to be 97dB at 1 meter with 1

watt of power.

-10 on your reciever is pretty loud, but probably not levels that will

cause hearing damage; you're probably pushing 95dB, and at 0 you are

pushing about 105dB. The reason your reciever can go above 0 is if you

have your channel settings set to 0. Let's say you boost the center

channel by 18dB (i know it's not possible, but just an analogy). when

you turn the volume up to 0, your center channel is actually at 18

which is now running the amplifier wide open. I'm not sure about your

model, but I've seen them where the absolute max gets reduced when you

boost the gain on a single channel. I wouldn't recommend going any

higher than 0 on the dial either. The reason you can go above 0 is

because denon wants to leave some headroom available for the amplifier

(basically it's the point above which the reciever stops being linear).

A good rule of thumb with max power handling capabilities is always to

leave yourself with at the very least 10dB of headroom. So if you want

to push volumes of 120dB, then get yourself a speaker capable of 130dB.

Then just make sure you have enough amp power to drive that 130dB, even

though you'll only listen at 120.

With your F3's I would look into getting an amp capable of twice the

RMS - you don't want to have so much amp reserve that you could just

blow the speakers instantly, but you want to leave yourself with some

headroom so that you don't blow the amp. Twice the RMS gives you 3dB of

headroom (remember our sensitivity game? doubling of watts corresponds

to 3dB increase.) Chances are the warning lights on your reciever will

come on before the amp overdrives the speakers - though don't trust

this feature for long periods of time.

Ok, so how do we interpret all this info for your situation? To put it

simply, your F3's just aren't capable of producing the SPL's you

desire. Even with unlimited amp power, you are only going to get at

most another 6dB more from your speakers than "0" on your Denon without

running into danger zone and it sounds like your wife will still need

more. To be honest, I don't know of any "home loudspeaker" capable of

such extreme volumes - though there are plenty of PA speakers available

with a smooth enough response to warrant home use without breaking the

bank. The problem here is finding a tweeter/midrange driver capable

of such SPL's - the woofers will have no problem keeping up.

If however your wife is satisfied listening at 0, then by all means

keep your current setup and save your money for other more important

upgrades...one of the main reasons we naturally enjoy loud music is

because we enjoy having a physical response to the music. And one thing

that greatly improves the experience is a really potent subwoofer - so

I would suggest saving up for a Sub-12 to go with your mains - not only

will you get more impact from the music, but you can set your mains to

small which will greatly improve the midrange response

(low frequencies require more cone excursion for the same SPL than

higher frequencies...so when the same driver is playing both low and

high frequencies, the high frequencies end up riding along the

excursion of the lower frequencies which results in the doppler

effect...the proper name for this is FMD, or Frequency Modulation

Distortion - setting your mains to small reduces this greatly which

will be percieved as a much smoother midrange).

And lastly, does your Denon have a Zone 2 feature on it? I know a lot

of them do but I'm not familar with your exact model. Anyways, the

reason I ask is because you would probably greatly benefit from getting

some "outdoor speakers" for when you're listening outside - and it

would be really easy to do if your reciever has the zone 2, because

then all you would need to do is run some wires and then get some

speakers for outside.

Since we're already having so much fun with dB ratings, here's another cool piece of info. For every doubling of distance

the volume decreases by 6dB. We mentioned earlier that the sensitivity

is measured at 1 meter from the speaker. If we were to put that meter 2

meters away from the speaker, it would read 6dB less, or 91dB. At 4

meters it would read 85dB, and 8 meters 79dB. When you're outside

listening to music, you are now much further away from your speakers

which means you gotta turn them up louder. But if you were to put

speakers outside which would be much closer to you, not only would you

get more volume, but it would sound better too (because the speakers

will be pointing at you instead of the sound bouncing around the house

and making its way out the windows).

So is your head hurting yet? it's a lot of info to swallow all at once

[]

Btw, here's a good site with some nice pictures:

http://www.kemt.fei.tuke.sk/Predmety/KEMT320_EA/_web/Online_Course_on_Acoustics/index_acoustics.html