Artto, how did your room measure

[Colin]

before and lately? what made the biggest difference?[8-)]

[DrWho]

If I may chime in...

he's got a flat response down to 19Hz with just his khorns playing and

the belle center for 3-channel stereo. If I remember correctly, he's

got a beneficial room mode that helps boost that low resonance. I can't

say I ever heard anything that low, but then again I can't say I was

ever needing to hear anything that low either.

Have you had a chance to listen to his system? It's by far the most

decieving system in the world...i say decieving in that it totally

tricks you into thinking you're somewhere else. There was this

recording in a church and another yoyo ma recording that were just

intense and caused a physical reaction when I opened my eyes because I

was expecting to be somewhere else (not to mention I forgot where I was

too). That one short visit has really changed the way I hear things in

all other aspects of audio (be it PA, studio, or at home).

I think the biggest benefit to his room is actually the noise floor. I

forget the measurement, but it's way fricken quiet in there...without

sounding unnatural (thanks to the barrage of diffusion). Both the room

and his electronics are quiet so when the song ends you're just left

floating in a see of nothingness where you hear nothing but your slow

heart beat and breathing. He's a really good host in that he sets the

volume and walks away, gives you the sweet spot and doesn't make a

sound while the song plays.

[Champagne taste beer budget]

I would love to hear that system, that synergy, that envelopness.

I envy you and your location, since I am in Middle Minnesota and have

no business plans that will take me close to Allans' in any near

future. Of course, I have no business plans that will take me out of a

20-30 mile radius of my present location at this time, nor any time in

the forseable future, but that's a different story.

I do intend on following his (Allans) lead with regards to curved

surfaces, reflections, reverberations, sound transmission classes, etc,

but as I am just now getting a computer link into my house for the

first time ever, I have other obstacles to overcome. My proposed

listening room is currently filled with storage boxes waiting to find a

place above the garage. Once that is insulated and ready to go for the

winter, which may or may not happen this fall, you go to Home Depot and

price out wood and insulation, they're not giving it away. I'd love to

hear what is out there, even if I can't have it for myself right now,

just so I know there's a better thing to come. One Day, Some Day.

Sheesh, I've been here a few years and I still have yet to hear a basic

tube system, to say nothing of a top notch set up with good power and

Khorns!!

BTW, Allan, if you'd see it in your heart, my wife and I would LOVE a

vacation, we havent had one in over three years, hearing your system

just might push her over the edge from "Music Is To Hear." into the

range of "Music Is To Listen To." I'm sure that makes sense to you,

though it may not to her. (I should qualify that, we have no money to

support a vacation, but if you'd be so kind, we would certainly pay for

the wine. Good wine, but not exceptional wine.)

So there you go.

[DrWho]

You mean artto right? (Art Kulak)

[Champagne taste beer budget]

Ummm... well... yeah, that would be correct, it was 2 in the AM, the

first time posting from home, and let's just say the cocktails hadn't

been put on hold. [<)]

Thank you for correcting me.

[Colin]

Bumpity comment, shamelessly designed to float this topic to the surface again!

[artto]

There are before and after frequency response graphs with explanations posted in arttos klipschorn room. In most real-world situations, it has been found that in classical music there is a gradual high-frequency roll-off in the halls, in jazz it rolls off more, and in rock it rolls off even faster. Since I listen to many kinds of music Ive opted for a room response somewhere in between.

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Ive only taken measurements on my room twice. Once long ago (second acoustical revision) before CD was out so I had to use phono LP as a source for some tests. And I took some about 2 years ago after I installed more substantial bass trapping in the form of Auralex LENRD and MegaLENRD. I had also eliminated several medium size diffuser surfaces from the rear wall. Unfortunately, the basic measurements can only tell you so much. In the old days they hadnt developed real-time computer-aided acoustical analysis yet. And regardless of what you measure or try to predict, it still boils to down to what you hear. Youre basically trying to create an "illusion" of the real thing.

My room has had four incarnations. The first setup was planned/arranged quite differently from what its like now. At first I had the Khorns and Belle on the short (18.5) wall with the deep part of the room behind me, more like a real theater/auditorium.

Without changing much of the acoustical treatment, I decided to try them along the long (28 wall). This made a big difference but keep in mind that the room was already built with substantial sound transmission reduction and acoustical treatment. On the long wall the sound opened up, increased depth and sense of space. It seemed as though it didnt even have to be played as loud on most music. After some experimentation with a substantial number of rug remnants I decided that heavy wall to wall carpeting would be best in this room and thats the way it stayed until the early nineties.

I think its fair to say that every decent concert hall/auditorium, certainly the ones Ive been in, that sounded good, also, visually looked very dramatic, regardless of their architectural style. I decided that I could make some acoustical improvements while at the same time make the room more dramatic visually, and hopefully even introduce some amount of optical illusion, primarily to make the room ceiling look higher than what it actually is, and give the room a sense of expanding.

The final revision is in process, no hurry to complete. The improvements will primarily be a further reduction in sound transmission (primarily low frequency) and hopefully, if my theory proves correct, the room should retain its reverberation properties at higher sound pressure levels without going into what I call acoustical overload.

Mike (DrWho) is correct about the room resonance reinforcing the low-end. And hes also correct about the noise floor. The noise floor is far more important to good sound than most people give credit for. In most residences there are many substantial noise sources (HVAC, running water, refrigerator, other appliances, electronics hum, wind etc). And if you live in or near an urban area a lot of outside noise can infiltrate too. We tend to become immune to it in our everyday life, but when its not there, you really notice it. Again, Id like to point to the comparison with fine concert halls. When was the last time you were in one that was full of unwanted controllable noise? Theres a reason you can hear a pin drop 100 feet away in those places and its not just because of the "acoustics".

So what made the biggest difference? I dont know. I think its all interrelated. Its about balance, taming the things that are causing the most problems, taking advantage of others. Just getting the system into a dedicated room that was built for this purpose probably made the biggest overall difference. Obviously these things will be different for different people and their particular situations. But I will say one thing, and that is IMHO you cannot have superior sound (re)production without it.

[sfogg]

Artto,

"The noise floor is far more important to good sound than most people give credit for."

Absolutely, the noise floor in the room is what ultimately determines the overall resolution (SNR) of the system.

Shawn

[IndyKlipschFan]

Artto..

What are your room dimensions anyhoww??? l w h too???

seating area from the front.. I always wondered...???

[artto]

The room is not as large as it appears in the pictures due to the wide angle lens required to capture the width of the space, its approximately 28x18.5. The house is a raised ranch but retained a standard 8 ceiling throughout the (partially below grade) lower level. Due to the additional rigid insulation and thicker sheetrock the ceiling is actually a little lower than 8 which is why I eventually used the large vertical diffusors in the front of the room, to create an optical illusion, to make the room seem taller than what it actually is (visuals are a very powerful thing). Most people tend to think the room is 9 to 10 high and the taller ones are often startled when they reach up and find they can actually touch it. The back wall is offset, the narrower part being about 17 wide, then an angled wall portion (door/entry), and then 18.5. When I built the room I intended to put the speakers on the 18.5 wall. This wall was moved out from the 17 dimension it was originally intended to be so I could get as much width as possible. The furnace, gas & water service, etc had to be moved 18 to make this possible (pain-in-the-***). It wasnt long until I discovered everything sound better with the speakers on the 28 wall but Im sure the offset depth and angle to the rear wall helps the acoustic properties.

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Distance from the front of the Belle Klipsch to your head at the listening position is generally about 11-12, and 16 from the front of the Khorns. I sometimes move the chair forward or back to adjust for the recording or type of music. Closer to the back wall, the more bass there is, forward, you get pulled into the space of the recording more. A typical scenario might be back for rock, more forward for a string quartet. But quite frankly, Im not that anal anymore and rarely stay glued to the ideal listening location, often standing in back or walking around. Its a huge sound field so it doesnt really matter all that much. And sometimes standing in back produces a more realistic image.

I posted a pic on my thread along with this post for reference.