Getting read to scream some more

[damonrpayne]

My friends in the architectural forum, you have been my sounding board through my archiTorture.

My house frame went up on September 28th and 29th. In the time since then, my builder had to

-Take the roofing trusses, which were already sitting there, and put them up.

-Put the soffet/fascia on

-Put the board on the roof

-Do the shingles, etc.

Can anyone clue me in as to how long this should take? I'm getting ready to raise hell with the owner of the company, since it seems my expiditer doesn't care if I drop dead.

[IndyKlipschFan]

As it gets colder watch in one week eveything you have said except shingles go up in 3-5 days....

Your still ok in my book.. let this get late Nov your in trouble..

workers generally do not like to work in the cold open houses, but love ones that have heaters/./ semi sealed... They will get there..

Take a deep breath.... again.... ok relax........ think pink floyd comfortably numb.....

[damonrpayne]

My point Roger is it has been frosting and raining inside my house for 1 MONTH! Does it take 1 month to put shingles on?

[colterphoto1]

They should get the roof decking and tar paper on pronto. That can hold for a few weeks until roofers get shingles on. MAKE SURE that you get a good solid layer of tar paper under the shingles though. If half of it blows off, it needs to be reinstalled prior to shingling for the warranty to hold. That's in the shingle manufactureres recommended installation instructions. Shingles must NOT be installed on raw wood!

Tar paper for now is okay. That'll at least keep the weather off. If your floorboards are all warped up, they'll have to grind them down, then put down another layer of subflooring (might have been planning on that anyway.

Don't panic and don't get them angry now. You know you're dealing with idiots, the last thing you want is mad idiots who don't give a damn about your home.

Michael

[DrWho]

They should have put the shingles up before it got cold out! I can

guarantee that you will be redoing your entire roof within a few years,

especially with the Wisconsin weather. When shingles are laid, there

are strips of tar that the nails go through....only temporary until the

sun comes out and heats up the tar enough to adhere to the roof. In

theory the nails are only supposed to be a temporary support so that

the workers can walk around while it's being shingled and so the wind

doesn't blow them away.

I'm not sure if there are different types of shingles or nails that can

be used, but all the builders I know think it's insane to shingle a

roof anytime but the summer. Every house in my neighborhood roofed

during the fall/winter had the roof reshingled after 5 years or

so (and that was after trying to do our own patch jobs to get rid of

water leaks). I can remember one day just before a huge rain storm

about half our shingles blew off, so we rushed to the store and were

shingling like mad before the storm hit.

I would see if you can't get them to guarantee the roof for an extended

period of time because they are no doubt going to insist that it won't

be a problem.

Btw, I know this info is coming from somebody who knows very little

about building houses so I could get you in touch with these builder

friends if you need a more reliable source.

[damonrpayne]

Here is my letter to them. Should I fax it? Colter says no...

To: The owners and management of Cade Homes

CC: Metro Milwaukee Builders Association

October 27^th, 2005

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

My family and I currently live less than ¼ miles from where our home is being built. This allows me to drive by Monday through Friday in the morning and evening on my way to and from work.

Today at 9:00am I drove by my house site again. Once again there is no crew doing any work on my home. My construction officially began on August 9^th 2005. The digging and my basement was all the work that was completed between August 9^th and September 28^th through 29^th. On those two days, as near as I can tell by my observations, the entire frame for my house was put up. Since September 29^th, the only work which seems to have been done on my home is the soffit and fascia being put up, and the boards where the shingles will be attached have been attached to the roof trusses. I am not a home builder by trade, but it seems that amount of work should not take a month, nor anywhere close. Since I drive by daily at varying times and seldom if ever observe any type of crew present on my lot I must assume that my house is just being neglected. This is of concern to me since it is now getting cold. It has rained at least 9 times inside my entire house, I have observed standing water on my floors, and now that the weather is cold the freeze/thaw cycle must be damaging the wood of my house in some way. I am also concerned for other reasons:

Three months into my project I have never met my expediter.

I have had three phone conversations with my expediter, all initiated by me.

My expediter has said to me that the slow progress is due to a picky inspector in the municipality where I am building my home.

In my subdivision, Summer Winds of Hartford, there have been at least three homes start digging long after me (for example the last week of September) that have long since passed me. While it rains and frosts inside my future home these houses have a roof, siding, insulation, and are beginning interior work. Apparently the picky inspector is no problem for them. If there are any material shortages, then again it appears they are specific to Cade.

This story about other houses springing up around me in far less time may sound anecdotal and exaggerated, but I will drive by these homes and record permit #s and the dates they were issued if that will help my case. At this point my earnest conclusion is that my house is an afterthought for Cade; they will get to it when they have nothing else to do.

At this point Cade still has time to finish my house within the contracted amount of time. At the current rate of work, however, it would be impossible to do so. In the meantime interest rates are going up, materials costs are going up, and I am paying for two places to live. There is no valid reason why I could not have been in my house before Christmas of this year.

This is the second letter I have sent regarding my home. At this point I cannot put into words how much I regret my decision to build with Cade. In most lines of business an upset customer at least warrants spending minimal time explaining to the customer that either the customer has no right to be upset, or that there are valid reasons why things are not going well. I have not so far warranted any attention from Cade. My gut check observation is that Cade does not build many homes in my area, and my home is therefore a hassle that is not worth your time. If this is the case, you should not have taken my project. The amount of time it took to get started on my home, the large mistakes in the contract, and the lack of steady progress on my home all seem unbelievable to me from a company who has built as many homes as Cade has. It seems likely that your long history may be riddled with people who were told one thing and experienced something entirely different. Since April 11^th of this year, it appears to me that the only item outside your control is a two week setback caused by the City mis-handling the first attempt at building permits.

I would like to see some progress made on my home. There should be no reason I could not have occupancy before Christmas of this year if any attention was paid to my project. If any damage has been done to my house by standing or frozen water, I intend to seek recompense from Cade via the established arbitration channels. I am consulting a 3^rd party inspector on this matter. Since I am not a home builder by trade, the onus is on Cade and my expediter to notify me if any action or lack of action on my part is keeping you from moving forward.

Perhaps Cade has so much business and such a good reputation that one unhappy customer, who will tell anyone who will listen not to build with Cade, is of no consequence.

Damon R. Payne

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />

846 Wheelock Avenue #7

Hartford, WI53027

damon@damonpayne.com

414-405-1390

[michael hurd]

Fax it! While you are at it, fax a copy to your local better business bureau. I just love it, the pen is always mightier than the sword.

[damonrpayne]

Bombs away.

[colterphoto1]

all valid points, have at it!

[DrWho]

I say fax it and mail it (getting one of those reciepts documenting

that you sent a letter). If it ever goes to court you can prove that

you sent mail to them on those days (make sure you include in the note

that you are both faxing and mailing it). There is no way to prove you

sent a fax.

[formica]

Just a couple of notes:

1) Do you have a delivery date in the contract? They can be held

responsible for all direct and indirect cost associated to a late

delivery. They cannot argue any unforeseeable acts of nature

given the continuous lack of work crews or activity on the jobsite

2) Freeze thaw cycles can affect your home... and of particular concern

is the soil beneath the footings. Freezing will cause the soil to

expand, and therefore heave upwards... and compress back down as it

defrosts. Concrete and concrete blocks aren't flexible mateials,

and can sustain cracking due to this movement. That is why

footings are always placed below the frost line... and the interior is

always heated.

the pen is always mightier than the sword.

Actually having a paper trail is very important, as it can't be argued

what was said or not... and also legally registers a "concern". Given

your situation, I would advise that you make a point to confirm most

conversations with a written note.

Puts them on record, a they wouldn't be able to give you a "but we didn't know"...

Rob

[damonrpayne]

I do have a delivery date, and there is still plenty of time for them to meet it, but not when there is only work done one day every other week! I am trying to get their attention and let them know that I won't stard for whatever passes for service with their other clients.

[michael hurd]

While I am not a roofer by trade, about a week and a half ago, a buddy of mine and myself shingled one side of a summer camp, roof was 15' x 40', with a chimney flashing, two ventilators and a big mount for solar panels to work around.

The camp owner had already previously removed the shingles, but left portions around the solar panels, and the flashings. We started at 10 am, having to unbolt the solar panels, and lift them up. ( 2 person job, they had through bolts inside the camp ) Also, had to remove the ventilators, and lift the flashing around the chimney. ( again, the owner wanted to re-use the flashings, so we did not damage them )

After covering the deck with tarpaper, and stapling it down, we started to lay shingles, one person opening the bundles and placing them where they can be easily grabbed, positioned, and nailed.

It was slow going until we had the first few courses laid off the scaffolding, and also we had to work under the raised solar panels. We had a pneumatic nail gun, which speeded up things immensely.

Quick measurement from the peak down every couple of rows showed that we were within 3/16" + - over the length of the camp. After we got up high enough, then it was time to drill holes, and drop the solar panel mount back down, and ensure that it was bolted securely.

We ended up finishing up after dark, it was 10:30 pm when we finished the cap at the peak, using halogen lights. The owner who had purchased all the materials had forgotten to get the calking gun tubes from his house, so we did as much as we could, he said that he would finish calking the rest the following day.

It was a good thing that I brought several packages of utility knife blades, they dull quickly cutting shingles, not to mention they get sticky with tar. They cut and fold much much better when they are warm, towards the end when we were doing the cap, they were getting pretty stiff.

To shingle the average house, with a good work crew ( several guys with nail guns ), it should not take more than a day tops.

[DrWho]

Ya, my family shingles each other's houses...we did my grandparents and

my aunt's house in about 6 hours with 5 adults and like 7 kids running

around trying to help. They were both ranch style houses so there was a

lot of roof to get done. The pneumatic nailers were so much fun []

[formica]

... with 5 adults and like 7 kids running

around trying to help.

Why were you running around for?? *ducks and

runs* []

[DrWho]

well at first we were trying to shoot each other with the nail gun and

then we thought it'd be fun to go surfing down the roof on loose

shingles [][]

[damonrpayne]

You guys are just making my point for me. With anything other than complete negligence this stuff doesn't take long. With it being winter I would imagine there are plenty of crews looking for work. so scheduling should not be an issue either.

I never heard back from them today. Not surprised.

[Tom Adams]

Damon.....can you clarify something for me? In your "letter" you mentioned something about having to pay for two houses. What do you mean by that?

Tom

ps: I can't possibly tell you how much I empathize with your situation. I think you need to re-read my posts on this matter. Boy have I ever BTDT.

[damonrpayne]

I should have clarified that. I was referring to an apartment + construction loan.

[colterphoto1]

Yes but that's normal. What is specifically costing you more is the time delay.

In your letter, be very specific about the delays as you see them and specific about what you expect to see. Something like 'there should be some progress in some way by a contracting crew each and every week.' You do not expect to see any periods of inactivity anymore.

Michael