New Sub?

[Kyler Cavers]

Hey guys, again havn't been on for a good while. I've been stuck

on my new wheels (1993 Camaro Z28) and had to actually brush the dust

off my setup.. Anywho, I'm not sure If I'm entirely satisfied

with my RSW-12. I don't know it just doesn't seem to be enough

for me, sure it plays fairly well but when it comes down to it, it's

too easy to push past it's limit. (eg, watching Band of Brothers

in dts, the scene where they jump over Normandy). I have my

receiver set to -18, the sub is a little over half and it just

sounds as if it's thumping too hard. And for fast paced bass like

techno is doesn't seem to keep up or play as well, simply put "it's not

loud enough". As a matter of fact I'm changing my setup tonight

so my RF-3 ll's and my RSW-12 are all agasint 1 wall facing out.

I did read that putting your sub at the back of the room is not a good

idea and mine is current in the back corner behind the couch.

But enough with that, the sub is in super mint condition, I've only had

it for a few months probably isn't even broken in entirely. Paid

about 1900 cdn and shouldn't have a problem getting rid of it if thats

what I decide to do. I'm thinkin about some SVS, I don't know

what model yet but something for a similar price range that I can crank

the snot out of and sound great. Alot of people on here go with

different subs then Klipsch' ones so I might just venture down that

same path.

Anyones two cents on this would be appreciated.

[Speedball]

Placement is 99% of the game with subs so I have found. I certainly would not give up on the RSW without trying it in as many places as possible. My svs cylinder is in it's 4th location and I'm trying very hard to find a 5th place.

Something else is going on too, when my ear is right over the sub it sounds like it follows the music about a step behind all the time, not sure what's up with that.[:^)]

[Paul]

Hey guys, again havn't been on for a good while. I've been stuck on my new wheels (1993 Camaro Z28) and had to actually brush the dust off my setup.. Anywho, I'm not sure If I'm entirely satisfied with my RSW-12. I don't know it just doesn't seem to be enough for me, sure it plays fairly well but when it comes down to it, it's too easy to push past it's limit. (eg, watching Band of Brothers in dts, the scene where they jump over Normandy). I have my receiver set to -18, the sub is a little over half and it just sounds as if it's thumping too hard. And for fast paced bass like techno is doesn't seem to keep up or play as well, simply put "it's not loud enough". As a matter of fact I'm changing my setup tonight so my RF-3 ll's and my RSW-12 are all agasint 1 wall facing out. I did read that putting your sub at the back of the room is not a good idea and mine is current in the back corner behind the couch.

But enough with that, the sub is in super mint condition, I've only had it for a few months probably isn't even broken in entirely. Paid about 1900 cdn and shouldn't have a problem getting rid of it if thats what I decide to do. I'm thinkin about some SVS, I don't know what model yet but something for a similar price range that I can crank the snot out of and sound great. Alot of people on here go with different subs then Klipsch' ones so I might just venture down that same path.

Anyones two cents on this would be appreciated.

While testing the rsw 12 and 15 I found the same as you,Sounds like it likes to give up,I wouldnt even like to think of pushing these subs to the limit.I have heard plenty of problems with them as well,mainly the amps going poof,to much heat build up in the amps make them give up,really i dont think they are built to take a buse,and not worth the money either compared to other subs out there.If you can think of any subs that take a buse let me know,I only no 3 companys and its not velo either,velodyne high end subs amps have heat problems as well.

[MrMcGoo]

The weak link is not the RSW-12, but the RF-3s on the H/K 125. Bass between 40-80 Hz is a joint effort. The Rf-3s are not able to hold up their end for several possible reasons. Placement may also be a major problem as may phase. The RF-3s and RSW-12 may be cancelling each other. Try flipping the phase switch, then

First, set the RF-3s as small so they do not muddy the RSW-12. Second, find the best location for the sub. Put the sub in the listening position and find where it plays loudest in the room when the RF-3s are not playing. That is probably the best location.

The problem is a setup problem. It's very expensive to blame the sub for operator error. You get a new sub, but the problem is stll there.

I play Band of Brothers on my RSW-15. The receiver is at +6 db on the subwoofer level with the volume at 9:00 AM on the sub and my processor at -30. It sounds like you are there. At -20 I hit peaks over 105 db. The wife asks if something crashed down and broke. The RSW-15 does not ever break a sweat. It' all in the setup.

Bill

[MrMcGoo]

Ask theEAR if his RSWs give up or can't keep up with his dozen ubber subs. They are keepers for theEAR and have to compete with subs like the HGS-18, Paradigm Servo 15 and Revel B15.

Reported problems are rare with the RSWs, but they do happen. It's just like cars. A small percentage have problems. I suspect operator error may be the biggest problem.

Most new users have never heard of a room mode or nulls much less have the ability to calculate where they are and avoid them. They sit in a null and turn up the volume. When nothing happens, they blame the sub.

It is ludicrous to say that a 625 watt sub cannot put out bass. It is like the fellow at the drags that has very poor times on his 625 hp dragster. A decent set of tires and the skill to get off the line without spinning your tires excessively is critical. Don't blame the sub or the engine if you do not use it correctly.

Bill

[TheEAR]

Ask theEAR if his RSWs give up or can't keep up with his dozen ubber subs. They are keepers for theEAR and have to compete with subs like the HGS-18, Paradigm Servo 15 and Revel B15.

Reported problems are rare with the RSWs, but they do happen. It's just like cars. A small percentage have problems. I suspect operator error may be the biggest problem.

Most new users have never heard of a room mode or nulls much less have the ability to calculate where they are and avoid them. They sit in a null and turn up the volume. When nothing happens, they blame the sub.

It is ludicrous to say that a 625 watt sub cannot put out bass. It is like the fellow at the drags that has very poor times on his 625 hp dragster. A decent set of tires and the skill to get off the line without spinning your tires excessively is critical. Don't blame the sub or the engine if you do not use it correctly.

Bill

Exactly,

Little Paul tries to play the big cheese here. RSW subs amps going "poof" ,yeah right.

All of my three RSW's work great.Spreading rumors of RSW amps failing is not good and Trey should lock nonsense away.RSW amps are as solid as the best I've owned and I own more subs than anybody here by FAR.Very far. Comprende?

[Paul]

Ask theEAR if his RSWs give up or can't keep up with his dozen ubber subs. They are keepers for theEAR and have to compete with subs like the HGS-18, Paradigm Servo 15 and Revel B15.

Reported problems are rare with the RSWs, but they do happen. It's just like cars. A small percentage have problems. I suspect operator error may be the biggest problem.

Most new users have never heard of a room mode or nulls much less have the ability to calculate where they are and avoid them. They sit in a null and turn up the volume. When nothing happens, they blame the sub.

It is ludicrous to say that a 625 watt sub cannot put out bass. It is like the fellow at the drags that has very poor times on his 625 hp dragster. A decent set of tires and the skill to get off the line without spinning your tires excessively is critical. Don't blame the sub or the engine if you do not use it correctly.

Bill

Exactly,

Little Paul tries to play the big cheese here. RSW subs amps going "poof" ,yeah right.

All of my three RSW's work great.Spreading rumors of RSW amps failing is not good and Trey should lock nonsense away.RSW amps are as solid as the best I've owned and I own more subs than anybody here by FAR.Very far. Comprende?

here he gos again bragging how many subs hes had as loaners.and owns 166 of them in a 12x12 room.

[Paul]

Ask theEAR if his RSWs give up or can't keep up with his dozen ubber subs. They are keepers for theEAR and have to compete with subs like the HGS-18, Paradigm Servo 15 and Revel B15.

Reported problems are rare with the RSWs, but they do happen. It's just like cars. A small percentage have problems. I suspect operator error may be the biggest problem.

Most new users have never heard of a room mode or nulls much less have the ability to calculate where they are and avoid them. They sit in a null and turn up the volume. When nothing happens, they blame the sub.

It is ludicrous to say that a 625 watt sub cannot put out bass. It is like the fellow at the drags that has very poor times on his 625 hp dragster. A decent set of tires and the skill to get off the line without spinning your tires excessively is critical. Don't blame the sub or the engine if you do not use it correctly.

Bill

ther has been issues with the rsw 12 and the rsw10 amps that quit,i know of 4 from owners,and two from drivers failing,now they could have been just manufactures defects i dont know,klipsch handles replacement quite well and better than other comapnys i know of,As far as other rsw's subs i have not heard any more compaints so problems have been cleared up.

[TheEAR]

Paulie AKA CCP,

Having a ball this Christmas,posting nonsense and Deaf Finitive hoopla as facts!

[MrMcGoo]

Four Klipsch amps quit out of how many???? By the way, SVS also uses BASH brand amps just like Klipsch. But SVS amps are ok and Klipsch amps suck. Uh-Huh, sure.

Bill

[Zealot125]

Grrrr.....

Dont mean to be picky, but BASH is not a brand! BASH = Bridged amplifier switching hybrid, which is an amplification tehnology blending the advantages of class D and Class AB amplification. The result is a marriage of both high efficiency and high fidelity amplification which is often ideal for subwoofers. Just because an amplifier uses BASH technolgy does not make it flawed. BASH amps can be fantastic performers, it all comes down to how well built they are. Arguing that a cheap amp uses BASH breaks down often provides no grounds for asuming that all BASH amps (particularly on subs that made Nousaine's sub list) have the same problems by nature.

[MrMcGoo]

Zealot,

Grrrrr back at you and your ignorance. BASH is a registered trade mark and trade name. Klipsch does not own it. You pay to use it and their patents and must meet their standards. Companies that own such valuable trade marks do not allow crap put out with their name attached. It kills the value of the brand and the sales and royalties. Basic business 101.]

BASH amps are manufactured by Indigo Manufacturing Inc. in Canada. They own the trade marks, trade name and patents. Do you think that companies like SVS manufacture amps? Their job is to determine the general specs like wattage, peak power etc. Indigo does the rest.

Bill

[Kyler Cavers]

Hmmm, well I am trying to understand this from your point of view, I

did manage to change my setup and, from what tests I did run it sounded

alot better; I did flick the the phase which made a noticeable

difference. The one problem I do have here guys is that my

setup is in my mom's living room, she hates my stereo and can't stand

when I rearrange things to try and incoporate a good soundstage.

Further more when I am able to crank my stereo it's usually only once

or twice a week so being able to move the sub around the room and

experiment is a bit difficult.

Mr.Mcgoo you said something about combined effort at 40-80hz and the

125 with the RF-3's being the problem? Could you elaborate.

I did find that leaving the speakers on "Large" covered a bit of the

higher freq bass notes that the RSW-12 didn't like to play which is why

I left them. Until I can move out into my own place with my

buddies and we can actually set this expensive stuff up I'll be in a

bit of jam. I am going to continue some other tests, mainly dts

because thats what seems to push my RSW-12 farther then it wants to go.

[Paul]

Grrrr.....

Dont mean to be picky, but BASH is not a brand! BASH = Bridged amplifier switching hybrid, which is an amplification tehnology blending the advantages of class D and Class AB amplification. The result is a marriage of both high efficiency and high fidelity amplification which is often ideal for subwoofers. Just because an amplifier uses BASH technolgy does not make it flawed. BASH amps can be fantastic performers, it all comes down to how well built they are. Arguing that a cheap amp uses BASH breaks down often provides no grounds for asuming that all BASH amps (particularly on subs that made Nousaine's sub list) have the same problems by nature.

Thank you Zealot125 for explaining to the unknowledgable that bash amps are not all built the same,Some here that posted think a bash amp are all the same.,they all use different internals.

[MrMcGoo]

Kyle,

I understand that you have to do the best that you can with what you have for now.

The RF-3s set as large play down to about 40 Hz with any signal on that channel. The sub plays the same frequencies. You have already solved PART of the problem with the phase switch which helps prevent phase cancellations. When the RF-3's woofer moves in the opposite direction as the RSW-12's woofer you are 180 degrees out of phase, i.e., the two cancel each other and there is no sound produced.

When you set the RF-3s as small, frequencies below the crossover point are rolled off (reduced) at the rate of 12 decibels per octave. So, if the crossover is set at 100 Hz, then by 50 Hz the signal sent to the "small" speaker is reduced 12 decibels. This reduces the possibility of phase cancelations. it also leaves an underpowered receiver with more power for the higher frequencies.

The RSW-12 has a 625 watt amp that has plenty of bass for most listeners. In order to get the most out of it, not only do you want the RF-3s set as small, you have to set the distance correctly on your processor due to the overlap in frequencies. Phase should be fully adjustable from 0 to 180 degree, but it is not on most subs. You compensate for this problem with the distance adjustment for the sub on the receiver.

Flip the phase switch back where it was, then adjust distance for the LEAST bass on a test disk like Avia or Sound and Vision. When it is minimized, you are perfectly out of phase. Then flip the phase switch and ALL the bass reappears.

The problem with DTS movies is that they are usually mixed VERY hot for people with the most capable systems. I can bring the house down with the gain set at 9:00 on my RSW-15 on DTS movies like Master and Commander. By running at +6 db on my processor, I get less distortion and am a bit less likely to clip the sub's amp. When you clip the amp you not only risk damage, but there may be less bass.

Sometimes less is more. It's like the dummy that gives his car more gas on ice and spins the tires. Less gas gives better traction and you move forward. The moral is any amp can be clipped, so back it off a bit to get more out of it on the bass heavy movies.

Bill

[sivadselim]

While testing the rsw 12 and 15 I found the same as you,Sounds like it likes to give up,I wouldnt even like to think of pushing these subs to the limit.I have heard plenty of problems with them as well,mainly the amps going poof,to much heat build up in the amps make them give up,really i dont think they are built to take a buse,and not worth the money either compared to other subs out there.If you can think of any subs that take a buse let me know,I only no 3 companys and its not velo either,velodyne high end subs amps have heat problems as well.

omg what bullsh!t!

(no, i've not read the rest of the thread yet. just had to respond to that.)

[Speedball]

................[]...............lol.

[MrMcGoo]

There is a lot of BS in this thread. Things like BASH amps (manufactured by Indigo) in SVS are better than BASH amps in Klipsch (aslo manufactured by Indigo) are BS. Then there is the 10 inch driver powered by 300 watts that thrashes a well designed 12 inch sub powered by 300 watts. My favorite BS is that subsonic "sound" you cannot hear is important, even though you have to give up output in the audible range to get the subsonics.

Bill

[Paul]

While testing the rsw 12 and 15 I found the same as you,Sounds like it likes to give up,I wouldnt even like to think of pushing these subs to the limit.I have heard plenty of problems with them as well,mainly the amps going poof,to much heat build up in the amps make them give up,really i dont think they are built to take a buse,and not worth the money either compared to other subs out there.If you can think of any subs that take a buse let me know,I only no 3 companys and its not velo either,velodyne high end subs amps have heat problems as well.

omg what bullsh!t!

(no, i've not read the rest of the thread yet. just had to respond to that.)

What B......T There may have been problems you have not heard about and i have,i am not saying theyare all the same but my friend had a problem with the rsw12 driver just quiting while watching a movie,The dealer got him a new diver and has no problem since,an other problem with rsw15 from nephew amp quit,he had found other people with problems as well,Ihave a rsw 10 that i have had for a little while now and it seems ok,i am not putting down klipsch it could have been a defect as other manufactures,Hay i have heard of svs drivers going as well,is this B.....s..t as well.I am sorry to mention a few flaws ,I my self have owned klipsch products for the last 25 years and love them,I have lascalas little heresy's,fortes,rs25's ,chorus 11,sold all my kg series speakers from early years.I wont give up with klipsch they do make an excellent product and always will.[]

[MrMcGoo]

I think that the primay area of BS in this thread is the implication that RSW-12s and 15s do not put out very substantial amounts of bass.

Bill