...to theEAR & others...aci Titan 2LE/onix UFW-12/adire Tumult sealed...

[kramskoi]

Happy holidays and many thanks to all who posted on the "lowdown" sub-12 thread.I'm desperate for any information on the Titan 2LE (sv-12 driver) and how it stacks up against the onix ufw-12 and the adire tumult in a sealed enclosure. I think after much deliberation i'm going to get the most musical sub i can find for <$1200 and just live with it's HT performance. I've slowly come to realize that i've got to up the ante a bit for the output and quality i'm searching for.

I'm hoping for a system Q of <.6 per the ACI titan if i decide to DIY a tumult or purchase the ufw-12. The ufw-12 (driver) is VERY impressive at 32lbs (200 oz. of magnet) and i think on par with the tumult driver in quality. I note that the sensitivity of the tumults are a shade less than 84dB vs. 87.7 and 90dB for the titan sv-12. I'm wondering how this all comes out in the wash of SPL. The titan gives away 750 watts and and almost 20mm of xmax to both the tumult and the ufw-12, with ufw-12 measuring 34mm! Nousaine's numbers for the original 12E titan driver fly in the face of some of the subjective evaluations of the sub. The new sv-12 driver is stated by ACI +5dB better @ 20 Hz. I can find no qualitative output data on the sv-12, only that it supposedly plays almost twice as loud as the orignal titan 12E.

That being said, this sub is believed by many, to be one of the most balanced and musical subs ever designed. I'm just wondering how much it gives up in output to the tumult and the ufw-12. I believe it's built to a 1.9 cu. ft enclosure and eq'd down to 20 Hz with a sensing circuit and high pass filter to protect the driver below that point.

I'm looking, at least, to go flat to 20 Hz (in-room). My room (bedroom) is 1,700 sq ft...the ceilings are 8 feet and there is room (gain) nodes around 27-45 and 70 Hz (22 feet for the longest wall). As a point of reference for SPL, in the movie The Polar Express, when the train first arrives and slowly comes to a stop, my receiver is at -20dB (uncalibrated) and the impact is SUBstantial. Most of my viewing takes place around that dB level, which is over 15 feet from the sub.

As noted before, i run the m&k dual 8 and the klipsch IFI sub together and i'm wondering what i would give up (HT) running the IFI with one of the sealed 12's mentioned above. That IFI sub is "very well designed" and one mean little SOB...like the little engine that could.!

In a room my size...-10 to -5dB is thunderous (the yamaha rx-v657 goes all the way to +16) and i could'nt stand 2hrs at anything above that range. The opening credits for I Robot had me worried about my little eights...as did War of the Worlds. I think, even though it's actually (3) 8 inch drivers, they are operating at their limits (especially the 125 watt m&k).

The current sub package is stellar with music but limited below 30 Hz...which is why i'm looking to move to a 12 inch driver (or two). That and the fact that the DTS trailer won't come through clean unless the sub level is set to -9dB on the receiver. That really chaps my a**. I'm keeping the IFI but the m&k has got to go. Time for some "man" output down low. But I want to keep the bass air-tight, accurate and dynamic.

My room has good gain so i think for $1200 i should be able to meet my goal.

I've tried trueRTA tone generator and a track from Deep Dish Moscow which has a 2 minute 27 Hz tone pulsation. I can't turn the receiver past -26 dB before audible doubling occurs...you were right EAR!...props to ya!...26 Hz and below is unusable. And m&k claims output below 20 Hz...what a joke! even in-room...It's amazing to hear the output decline so rapidly using trueRTA. It is by far the most fantastic and depressing audio tool available (unless you happen to own the Genelec HTS6).

I've narrowed it down to these 3 choices and even (2) ufw-10's might be an option at the budget price of $1K. Regardless, i would like to be satisfied at least for the coming year with this next purchase.

If anyone has heard these subs play or have important information relative to them, including DIY experience, please don't hesitate to chime in. I'm not just looking for recommendations but also for more expert subwoofer knowledge. Any and all tidbits are appreciated. Thank you so much...MB

[Jay481985]

one problem the tumult hasn't been released and probably not until

february.... I been waiting for 2 15d2 since march...... Damn you

adire... And Klye Richardson please take my money in exchange please!

[DrWho]

You can get very similar performance to the Tumult using the AES AV15 (though these have been put on backorder too) or the dayton titanic. You just have to get "creative" in your sub/filter design (properly controlling cone excursion below the tuning point is the key to boosting overall SPL).

It'd be nice if ascendant audio got their act back together too....the sub world is in an awful state for the DIYer right now.

Btw, I highly recommend looking into passive radiator designs....they save on cabinet volume and can handle louder SPL's better than ports.

[Jay481985]

It'd be nice if ascendant audio got their act back together too....the sub world is in an awful state for the DIYer right now.

Btw,

I highly recommend looking into passive radiator designs....they save

on cabinet volume and can handle louder SPL's better than ports.

no kidding its a sad sad world right now for DIYers....

also pr are nice but they inherit alot of cost, usually another 100 dollars which is half the price of a av15

[CECAA850]

You can get very similar performance to the Tumult using the AES AV15 (though these have been put on backorder too) or the dayton titanic. You just have to get "creative" in your sub/filter design (properly controlling cone excursion below the tuning point is the key to boosting overall SPL).

It'd be nice if ascendant audio got their act back together too....the sub world is in an awful state for the DIYer right now.

Btw, I highly recommend looking into passive radiator designs....they save on cabinet volume and can handle louder SPL's better than ports.

They're close.........

http://www.ascendantaudio.com/

[DrWho]

Oh my, the Alliance 18 looks quite promising...just imagine that in a huge oversized 'ported' enclosure [H]

[sfogg]

The Titan with the SV-12 has about 5dB more output then the original

Titan with the AC-12 driver in it. Even with the AC-12 those were very

good subwoofers, very musical though limited on absolute output. The

limiters help hide that though as it keeps them from overloading and

sounding nasty. I had a pair of original Titan's and I later upgraded

the woofers in them to SV-12s. They are good subs but aren't the last

word in output or extension.

"I'm looking, at least, to go flat to 20 Hz (in-room). My room

(bedroom) is 1,700 sq ft...the ceilings are 8 feet and there is

room (gain) nodes around 27-45 and 70 Hz (22 feet for the longest wall)."

Your actual room gain (not room induced modes) should start around

25hz. If you are trying to take advantage of that to extend your

response lower you need a sealed subwoofer design with a natural F3 (no

EQ) in the ballpark of 25hz or a little lower. If you have a solid room

that is well sealed room gain can work very well, it extends my bass

response very deep for example. If it is a very open room then room

gain won't help as much.

I ended up DIYing my subs for my new room. Sealed design using JBL

Sub1500 drivers (two per cabinet) in 6'^3 cabinets with a Q of around

0.5. With room gain I'm within a couple of dB +/- down to at least

10hz. By themselves the F3 of the design is around 33-35hz.

Shawn

[Jay481985]

You can get very similar performance to the Tumult using the AES

AV15 (though these have been put on backorder too) or the dayton

titanic. You just have to get "creative" in your sub/filter design

(properly controlling cone excursion below the tuning point is the key

to boosting overall SPL).

It'd be nice if ascendant audio got their act back together too....the sub world is in an awful state for the DIYer right now.

Btw,

I highly recommend looking into passive radiator designs....they save

on cabinet volume and can handle louder SPL's better than ports.

They're close.........

http://www.ascendantaudio.com/

/me drools yeah they updated the website finally

[kramskoi]

thanks Shawn...WoW!...how many drivers total for this setup? i assume that the bass is VERY tight at .5 Q. You are correct about f3...all the drivers i've tried with winisd at a .57 Q has a low to mid 30's rolloff and down 7-11 dB at 20 Hz. That is the beef i have with the ufw-10 (ground plane rolloff starts at 35Hz) and i'm wondering if the ufw-12 is eq'd flat to 20Hz or rolls off naturally also. Do you know of any drivers in subwooferdom that have a natural f3 below 30Hz in a sealed design...and won't require a skyscraper sized box to get low?

My main concern is the amount of headroom available in the 20-30Hz region...i would need good linearity here and an average spl of "at least" 100dB (<3% THD)...105dB would be ideal. At my listening level, this is more for low distortion than for maximum spl. I'm trying to avoid buying two subs to reach this level of performance. I'm really holding out hope with the ufw-12. My only issue with it is the system Q, which is not stated in the specifications. I need more data and less subjective opinion.

I'm beginning to think that the only way to get to f3/20Hz in a sealed design is equalization...otherwise it becomes a space issue. Using the aci sv-12 driver in winisd, calls for a 15 cu ft cabinet for .5 Q and 34Hz/f3 rolling off to -7 dB at 20Hz. I imagine i would have to move to a 15 inch driver. Well if i could swing the ACI maestro at 2,100.00, we would'nt even be having this discussion.

On a final note, have you ever checked out the adire rava mk2? I was checking the specs and it seems like a good buy at 800.00. I'm not sure about it's high-density particle board vs. MDF. Good numbers though. Well thanks for the input and Happy holidays to you. MB

[DrWho]

In a 10 cubic foot cabinet the AES IB15 is -6dB at 20Hz....so with room gain you're looking at a relatively flat response. You can run 100W into it without every bottoming out (at any frequency) and I think you're looking at right around 110dB for just one driver.

If you wanted, you could always do an isobarik design in a 5 cubic foot cabinet.

[sfogg]

".how many drivers total for this setup?"

Four, two in each cabinet. One is the left sub the other is the right sub. The LFE sub is a ContraBass.

"Do you know of any drivers in subwooferdom that have a natural f3

below 30Hz in a sealed design...and won't require a skyscraper sized

box to get low?"

I haven't looked in awhile. One trick (if it will fit the budget) for

reducing size is compound loading the woofers. The enclosure size of

the back woofer is half the size of a single woofer alone. OTOH when

you increase the cabinet size to fit the second woofer in with the

first you increase the cabinet size again somewhat so you loose some of

the size reduction there.

You might check out the Bully subwoofers. I think their VAS is around 4

cubic feet with an FS of 27hz. Basically if you build the box larger

then the VAS the subwoofer is effectively an infinite baffle... just

one that happens to also be a sealed box woofer. They are more

expensive then some other options though but you gain the benefit of a

smaller enclosure then some of the other options.

"...i would need good linearity here and an average spl of "at least" 100dB (<3% THD)...105dB would be ideal."

The Bully in free space would be good for about 101dB at 25hz based on Linwitzs spreadsheet. In room you would have more SPL.

"'m beginning to think that the only way to get to f3/20Hz in a sealed design is equalization."

With EQ room gain won't work the same way as the systems roll off will

be sharper. Still something like a Linwitz transform can get you a much

smaller box with the downside of lower efficiency and less SPL.

"Well if i could swing the ACI maestro at 2,100.00, we would'nt even be having this discussion. "

That does look like a good unit. Keep your eyes open for a used unit, I have seen them a couple of times.

Shawn

[DrWho]

Oops, just one correction:

The IB15 will do 108dB with an F3 of 27Hz in a 10 cubic foot cabinet with 100 watts. It is -6dB at 20Hz.

Ported to 13Hz with a peaking 2nd order high pass of +3dB at 17Hz, the IB15 will have an F3 of16Hz and still do 108dB with 100 watts. It has a -6dB point of 13Hz.

Both the sealed and ported configurations could be reduced to 5 cubic feet with the addition of another driver in an isobarik configuration (aka compound loaded). The F3's are the same, but 400 watts are needed to achieve a max of108dB.

If you went with a "ported" approach, then I would highly recommend going with a PR type system to keep the cabinet volume and port lengths within reasonable dimensions. (The 10 cubic foot cabinet can get away with a single 4" port that is 17.5" long, or two of the PR15-1050's from AES with an additonal 150 grams per PR achieve the same tuning point. The 5 cubic foot cabinet can get by with a single PR18-2500 from AES).