Four Way Klipschorn!

[DRBILL]

My drivers are away for a retrofit by <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Bob Crites and Im awaiting new AAs to replace the strange AK-2s. So what do I do for my daily music fix? It suddenly came to me. Pop the Heresys on top of the K-Horns and hook them up to the wires that come from the bass bin to the AK-2s. This results in a four way system with the woofer and its crossover intact and the Heresys getting the information that previously went to the mids and tweets. And it isnt half bad! It has a punchy sound that you feel in your sternum. It would really please those who prefer a cone mid. Of course, it isnt the seamless sound of an intact K-Horn, but it will sure do until I get my gear back.

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The most important thing is that it cured the anomaly that prompted me to get new diaphragms and crossovers. I know that Im on the right track. It might be overkill, but there is nothing quite like a clean slate. My beef was a brittle, raspy sound, almost unnoticeable unless you were listening for it while massed violins or womens voices in chorus were present.

DRBILL

[ZAKO]

Funny you mention that brittle raspy sound on chorus,s. I get that alot on Beethoven,s 9th symphony. ( I have several) The chorus seems to go into gross intermodulation on recordings that i do not hear live. I also made a live recording of this symphony with the St Louis Philharmonic. using a simpler mic tecnicke to no availe. Its most annoying. Sounds like a bunch of barking dogs.

[DRBILL]

Well. I think it was Mark Twain who said "Beethoven's music is a lot better than it sounds."!

[] DRBILL

[D-MAN]

Gentlemen, I really should not bring this up, but what you are refering to as "raspiness" is actually called "graininess" in some circles.

I firmly believe that this so-called "grainy" quality is an artifact of COPPER wiring. I'm serious. Hear me out.

Switching to silver makes it magically dissappear. I am going to be switching to silver-coated copper wiring for use between the crossover and the drivers it to gain slightly more controlability over the midrange in particular (between the attenuator settings). The bass is less effected so I personally think that it might be overkill for the low end, I find it mostly effects the higher frequencies.

I've been playing with different brands of copper (all I've got right now) and the soundstage, clarity, etc. is greatly effected by the BRAND of wire (all 12 AWG). The fat-stuff from SoundKing really attenuates the highs, for example.

Interestingly, I find that the soundstage becomes more disunified if you only change the midrange, and leave the tweeter using some other brand.

I will be doing the whole mess with the same type and size of wiring.

The effect is really like using a "cheaper" capacitor or a "boutique" cap in the crossover - it is like that.

DM

[DRBILL]

That is interesting. But, of course, the voice coils and the secondary winding of the output transformer are copper and I can't think of any way around that.

And the "grainy" or "raspy" sound disappeared with the Heresy substitution.

Please keep us up to speed with your research.

DRBILL

[D-MAN]

Some manufacturers actually make pure silver VC's in their drivers as an option (Lowther, for instance) but that won't help us with big horns!

However, IMO, motor windings are not a specific issue as they do not have a concern with frequency TRANSMISSION. The are a motor inductor coil, which is a different animal as far as transmitting a frequency-specific electrical signal from here to there.

But what I'm saying is true about internal wiring. The Heresy on top eliminated how much of that from your system?

Also I don't know what crossover is in your Khorns, but an investigation of capacitor quality followed by connecting wires would be something that I would think about.

DM

[DrWho]

Silver has already been researched (on my campus actually). You're wasting your time.

It might be interesting though to see a hornloaded cone midrange with the khorn (that can dig down to say 100Hz) and then just find a fancy HF driver that can dig down to around 2kHz (there's plenty of them).

[D-MAN]

Come over and I'll demonstrate the differences in wires for you. Would you also carry this opinion into crossovers?

Try it for yourself before you sign up with somebody else's opinion.

Frankly, I know by your opinion that you haven't because the differences are quite striking. Simple as that.

DM

[DrWho]

So you've done a blind ABX test and have passed successfully on many occasions? If there is an audible difference, then it can be measured. I firmly believe the realm of psychoacoustics has much more to say about this subject than any measurements can ever try to show. If nothing else, there are far far far greater flaws in the system that need to be dealt with first. Also, if the wire makes a difference, then there is no reason a manufacturer can't compensate for that difference in the design of the speaker. In other words, you have no way of knowing which is better - even if there were an audible difference (and to date, I know of nobody capable of passing a blind test, which means there really is no audible difference).

[D-MAN]

I'm not going to argue. That fact remains I have been experimenting with this for over 2 years - I happen to know.

I am absolutely confident that I can prove it to anyones satisfaction if they care to visit and are interested in gaining any first hand experience to help form their opinions.

DM

[sfogg]

DM,

So that was a no to having ever tried it double blind...correct?

"I am absolutely confident that I can prove it to anyones satisfaction if they care to visit and are interested in gaining any first hand experience to help form their opinions."

Others have said that....then failed to tell them apart when they only used their ears to listen to them. Unfortunatly you are on the wrong cost or we could hook up to try this.

Shawn

[D-MAN]

I will say it again - for those of you with Khorns and the equivalents - TRY IT FOR YOURSELVES.

I have. Unless you want to call me a liar, there really isn't much more to say, is there?

Shawn, you would be welcome - then we could argue in person - over beer - no - make that: with beer. P.S. bring your RTA.

DM

[Spkrdctr]

Can I ask how you test the different wires? How do you show people the differences in the wires? Thanks for the info.[]

[DrWho]

I have. Unless you want to call me a liar, there really isn't much more to say, is there?

It has absolutely nothing to do with lying, but instead everything to do with perception. I have known many "picky" musicians that ask for specific things in their monitors - and there are times where a 6-10dB reduction is percieved as louder! Since you think you are going to hear a difference, you are going to change the focus of your listening and you will hear a difference. But the difference you hear has everything to do with the manner in which you're listening...not the equipment in question.

To put it another way, you can get a strand of copper wire to have the exact same electrical properties as a strand of silver wire. It is but a trivial process to measure the capacitance, inductance, resistance, and impedance of the wire.

I have no doubt that there are miniscule (in terms of audibility) differences between wires, but to claim either better than the other also requires you to claim that your source material was recorded more accurately than the difference the wire might make. I highly doubt those 30dB EQ curves implemented on LPs were really accurate down to 0.01dB...Let alone the performance of the musicians, the acoustics of the room's, or even the quality of the mixer's hearing on that day.

Or look at it another way...if silver was "better" then why haven't all the studios picked up on it? Every studio I've been in so far has been using the cheapest cables they could fine (investing only in quality connectors for durability reasons). But I guess all those gold records on the wall don't mean anything either...

[sfogg]

DM,

" TRY IT FOR YOURSELVES."

I have in the past. Blindfolded I couldn't tell the $1000 interconnect apart from a plain copper one.

Some will claim that must mean I'm deaf, some will counter claim it means I don't hear what is only in my imagination.

"Unless you want to call me a liar, there really isn't much more to say, is there?"

Whoever claimed you were a liar? Some were just pointing out the

incredible power the power of suggestion can have on our senses. That

is well documented in many many fields. The way to avoid the power of

suggestion is to eliminate the possibility of it influencing a test.

That is what double blind tests are all about and why they are used in

many many fields.

"you would be welcome - then we could argue in person - over beer - no - make that: with beer. P.S. bring your RTA."

I'd love to and to see/hear what you have built. There is a couple of thousand miles between us though....

Shawn

[D-MAN]

Since wire changes effect the apparent depth, and apparent spacial locations of the various instruments in the "soundstage", it cannot accurately be measured with electrical signal testing equipment, nor can it be determined on systems incapable of presenting the attibutes of depth and spacial locations. Most of the electical signals involved in spacial recognition would be in my estimation considered to be "transients", nuance/reflection/inflection/timbral signals, and how does one go about selecting those from the bandpass for specific measurement? Even if you could isolate one, how would you determine which one was "right", that is, you cannot recreate the original acoustic environment being reproduced from a recording with its own specific limitations into an entirely new space with its own issues.

You can measure the electrical signal all you want, and you will not be able to determine any reasonable measurement of the stereo "effect". It is unmeasurable because it is an ear-brain phenomena, and any reference to equipment tests in order to support the argument that wires are insignificant to the perception of spacial information derived from stereo speakers is entirely bogus.

It takes 2 humans ears with a brain in between to derive a "soundstage" from 2 or more channels anyway and that is the only viable "test" of the so-called "soundstage" that can be made. If anyone knows of a definitive scientific test of the available spacial queues of stereo soundstaging and their effects, please post it and prove me wrong.

I am not concerned with which "version" of the soundstage that anyone prefers. Only that ANYONE with two ears and a brain can determine that a change to the overall "soundstage" can be easily be made by simply changing very short wires in a critical signal path.

My concern is in making the point that changing wires of very short length clearly effects the quality and nature of what is presented by the same electrical-acoustical system and same pair of ears at the same listening location listening to the same musical source without altering anything else in the signal chain.

My thoughts on A/B/X testing: shall I spray paint the speakers orange to see if they sound better or not? And then ask others which color they prefer? Basically, that type of test is inappropriate except if one is taking a poll. Coke vs. Pepsi. I prefer Coke, thank you. I have no doubt whatsoever that I prefer Coke. The point is, did it prove that one actually tasted better than the other? No. What exactly did the test do other than simply take a poll of which color they prefered?

DM

[sfogg]

Who claimed anything about using anything other then your ears to do the tests? Note... I said ears... not ears AND eyes.

"My thoughts on A/B/X testing: shall I spray paint the speakers orange

to see if they sound better or not? And then ask others which color

they prefer?"

The whole point of an A/B/X test is not preference. Anyone that doesn't

understand that should not be complaining about something they don't

understand.

The point of an A/B/X test is simply to determine if the listener can

tell the difference between A and B using their ears alone. Nothing

more then that.

If the listener can determine the difference between A and B,by

correctly determining the identity of X, then they are hearing

something different between A and B that allows them to determine X.

If they can't....

In other words if A was copper and B was silver X is randomly selected

to be either A or B. Then the listener can switch between A/B/X as much

as they want to compare/contrast them. If the differences they claimed

to hear between silver and copper were real audible differences

(regardless of if instruments can detect them or not) then they should

be able to identify X easily.

The problem is when those that claim to hear these differences in wires

are A/B/X tested those same large differences they earlier claimed to

hear disappear and they fail the tests. So much for those 'huge'

differences they claimed to hear in cables.

The only exceptions to that are when cables are tested with very wacky

RLC values or 'cables' that have filters in them (MITs for example) are

tested.

"Basically, that type of test is inappropriate except if one is taking

a poll. Coke vs. Pepsi. I prefer Coke, thank you. I have no doubt

whatsoever that I prefer Coke."

Those were in no way shape or form ABX tests. They were single blind

A/B tests. And the reason they were single blind is whoever decided to

try that test paid attention in psychology class... single blind tests

can be heavily influenced by the person performing the test.

Shawn

[D-MAN]

What else about everything I said above didn't you understand? Ok, you can't see the wires. Better?

Shawn, I think you would argue about snow with an Eskimo just to stay warm.

P.S - bring your RTA!

{edit} Knowing which wire is which really isn't a concern - only that a clear difference between brands can be determined. And on my system, for better or worse, it is easily determined and is unmistakable, so in my opinion, it doesn't require a critical hearing ability nor a big elaborate test procedure to come to that conclusion. You would agree with me if you heard it. Since you are not here, then, the problem is that you would need to take my word for it, which I can see most are disinclned to do. Good, be sceptical - keeps everyone honest, but don't tell me I'm wasting my time.

I alone will be the judge of that, thank you.

DM

[DRBILL]

I am so terribly sorry that I was the cause of this enmity. It is almost enough to make me want to "sign off" on the forum.

As a matter of fact, I'm going to take a week off without reading or posting anything. Brother Colter opted out. A week might reveal other areas that need my time.

Who knows.

DRBILL

[D-MAN]

And I appologize for highjacking your thread with a controversial subject that was bound to raise some hackles.

DM