JBryan Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 How about an ignorant test instead of a blind one? I was switching out wires the other night and I guess I was too tired to notice that I hadn't changed out a wire (I run separate wires to the top horn and bass bin). The next time I sat down for a listen, I noticed that the image was off - and it was quite obvious. I checked the gear and found the mistake - I had 1 wire from Cardas and 1 from AlphaCore going to each top horn. Once I switched to the matching wire, the image snapped back into focus. (and No, one wire wasn't hooked up out-of-phase) My point is that although these speaker wires were both copper and the same length, with the same connectors, the differences were discernable, if subtle, to my ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Exactly what I was trying to say! However, we have to discount your conclusion as heresy, of course. It goes against our rigidly applied dogma of audio testing and our undying pendantic belief that all things audio can be concretely and therefore reassuringly measured.[] DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triode Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I'd just like to know what he's smokin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 "I'd just like to know what he's smokin?" Promise not to tell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 My point is that although these speaker wires were both copper and the same length, with the same connectors, the differences were discernable, if subtle, to my ears. And the fact that they were both copper, same length, with same connectors doesn't show that they measure the same electrically. Also, have you been able to repeat the "test"? One of the biggest problems fueling the cable debate stems from the fact that some cables simply don't make good connections at the terminals - either due to the design of the connector or oxidation that comes with age. Since you were in the process of swapping things around, I don't think it completely ridiculous to speculate that some of these simpler issues might have been a factor (ie a loose connection). When I think of such things I think of all the string theorists out there that drew all sorts of conlcusions from a single piece of data - very cool theories I might add. And in the end it turned out to be a spec of dust on the lense of the camera! (and there went 50 years of research and theories - and all it took was a 'dumb maintainence man' to point it out). I will never contest someone's perceptions, but there is nothing wrong with trying to find explanations for those perceptions. Heck, I am susceptible to the same problems too. One of my best concerts was to my ears both the worst and best sounding concert I have ever mixed - it's all about the frame of reference your mind is in. The mere fact that we can pick out single instruments from a grand ensemble attests to the minds ability to literally change what we hear. And I believe that there must always be a way to measure something that is audible - we know this to be true because we can build measuring equipment that has better resolution than our own ears. I wouldn't go so far as to claim that we can measure everything right now, but I'm yet to see a situation where it wouldn't be plausible. But usually nobody bothers to measure some of these things because they really don't matter when you look at the big picture. In a way you could think of it as being the difference between an expensive lock for your house that will last a 100,000 years or a cheaper lock that will only last 500 years - the 'extra benefit' isn't worth all the trouble and extra expense - especially when you look at the big picture and realize the house won't be around for that long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 ". And on my system, for better or worse, it is easily determined and is unmistakable" IYO when you already know which you are listening to. Only way to prove you are hearing what you say is to pass an A/B/X test. "You would agree with me if you heard it. " What if I 'heard it' but didn't hear it? I'm either deaf or you are imagining it. Still can't say which is which without your passing the A/B/X. If you can do that then you have demonstrated you actually hear it. " the problem is that you would need to take my word for it, which I can see most are disinclned to do. Good, be sceptical -" The reason some are skeptical is they have seen these claims before. And then seen those making the claims fail any sort of controlled listening tests. You won't find a single 'cable' manufacturer that has passed a controlled test. In fact you will find the exact opposite.... they avoid them like the plague. Not to say you might not pass, that possibility certainly exists, but the trend is not in your favor. Besides, if you can *hear* the difference between silver and copper wire take Randi's $1,000,000 challenge and get yourself some nice funding for further speaker work. http://www.randi.org/research/ Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 "Since you were in the process of swapping things around, I don't think it completely ridiculous to speculate that some of these simpler issues might have been a factor (ie a loose connection)." No argument here - I paid more attention to Philosophy than Physics in school. My perception is my own and I couldn't imagine anyone having the same genes and experiences so as to see the world as I do. And just to be contrary, Physics is simply observation as well. Nothing about it is more than what humans accept and anything associated with humanity will eventually be contradicted - there are simply too many variables involved (and multiples develop every moment). Maybe one day somebody will come up with a logarithm so refined as to measure perception beyond the senses and we'll be able to measure the corresponding syntax firings and factor that into a wire-attribute matrix so we can move beyond this "electricity-is-electricity" fallacy. Just having a little fun.... :-^) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 lol [] Since we're sorta on the subject (man we're way off topic, lol)... In the ECE department at UIUC they stress above all else for the students to challenge and contradict the professors. So far in all my classes they have been trying to drive home the point that "this is the way we model it now and we are trying to equip you to improve upon these models." It is one thing to disagree with any of the models - in fact, I disagree with all of them (so do the profs). However, as an engineer I will continue to use these models (even if they break down) until I can create a new and better model on my own. Yes, it is my (our) responsibility to create the better models - there is no magic box or person that is going to spit it out for us. Have I reached that level? Goodness no, but I'm trying to learn. I have reinvented the wheel a few times on my own only to learn someone else already arrived to the same "solution" (which I find to be most encouraging, even though I'd like to take credit - and this isn't to brag because they really were things as simple as the wheel). sorry for going off topic....and btw DrBill, no need to get scared off or whatever by the direction the thread has turned. If nobody disagreed about anything this place would get real boring real fast. I must confess that I am a bit confused as to how you have achieved a 4-way design with your heresy on top. I think the disconnected sound you are noticing is due to the different efficiencies of the different components...so if you could tap down the bass bin a good 6dB you might have yourself something that sounds much much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 If the 'raspy' sound went away with the Heresy, I would expect it was the AK2 crossover, and it may clean up with an A or AA type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted January 18, 2006 Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 DJK, I'm back and sad to see the storm still raging! Sad. But, yes, you are perfectly right. I have the AAs on order and they should be here soon. This is probably overkill, but I am having the diaphragms in the tweets and mids replaced, too. Clean slate, as it were. The AK2 is a poor substitute for anything. I'm ashamed for Paul's sake. Thanks for your input. DRBILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Dissension is GOOD, Bill ... no one ever learned a thing ... by agreeing......[] take your position, and PROVE it ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Dissension is GOOD, Bill ... no one ever learned a thing ... by agreeing......[] take your position, and PROVE it ... Duke (and Dr Bill please forgive me for speaking for you), I don't think that it is so much the dissension that turns off many of us. Rather, it is the tone. If we were sitting down having a cup of coffee and talking about something that we both enjoyed, would we insult one another and use a contemptuous tone? There is a commonality between all of us. Why force a separation with ill-chosen words? Good Luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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