Marchand Tube active crossover?

[steamer]

Hello,

Currently I run a Rane 2 way active in my rig.Bought it real cheap on ebay just to get the system up and running.It works great and gives me the flexibility to make this system work...but as many on this forum I have an itch to scratch.

I am exploring the idea of upgrading to a better unit and was wondering if anyone had experience with the Marchand tube unit or any other tube crossover?

Are there impedance issues involved,does it act like a tube buffer stage along with its normal functions?

The system level is controlled by my Levinson CDP and its built in analog preamp,

Thanks for your input,

Greg

[Duke Spinner]

i can't see what advantage a tube could add to an x-over ....

except, more noise

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Hello,

Currently I run a Rane 2 way active in my rig.Bought it real cheap on ebay just to get the system up and running.It works great and gives me the flexibility to make this system work...but as many on this forum I have an itch to scratch.

I am exploring the idea of upgrading to a better unit and was wondering if anyone had experience with the Marchand tube unit or any other tube crossover?

Are there impedance issues involved,does it act like a tube buffer stage along with its normal functions?

The system level is controlled by my Levinson CDP and its built in analog preamp,

Thanks for your input,

Greg

I looked into the tube crossovers before purchasing mine. They look like a lot of money just to be able to say that you have a tube crossover. I went with Griffinator's recommendation and bought a Yamaha D2040 on ebay. These list for $4,000 retail for $3,000 and can be had on ebay for $500 or less. Digital crossover, pro stuff, tons of features (24 db slopes, time delay, parametric eq, lots of presets). This is a 4 way divider and evey channel can be set individualy. Big feature is that I run the 4th channels ful range and will "Y" into my subwoofer and a third center channel per the PWK black box.

Sfogg really likes the Behringer. The Ashley 4000 looks like a nice unit if you prefer analog. There are just so many choices available for so much less than the tube stuff. I like knowing that I have a $3,000 hard core pro unit rather than paying full retail for a hand built and probably overpriced designer crossover. (I'm talking about the Tube active, not our resident pros passive stuff. Al, Bob and Deans stuff is top notch if you are going passive).

Have you checked out Rod Elliott's papers on active crossovers? Its a must read.

Chris

PS - Meagin - if you have not already bought an overpriced receiver, the two way active that Greg will have for sale some time in the future is what I have been recommending to you. One of the Crown 150's is also now available.

[steamer]

Thanks for the responses,

I was hoping to hear from someone who had experience with one.

I like the sound of tubes and was wanting to add another tubed component in the signal chain.Cant really go with a tubed pre because of the Levinson's preamp section and volume control and the way my system is configured.

I have checked out the Behringer and Yamaha.Love the versatility of these but the functions are all in the digital domain and just wouldn't work using my CDP volume for system level,a bit to limiting for me,as I would lose resolution unless I had it maxed out.

As for the Marchand being a designer crossover and overpriced,LOL I had the impression it was well respected in the industry and can get a used one for a reasonable price,maybe that would be more than the Yamaha or Behringer,don't know,probably.

Shawn,I read your posts again about triamping and was a bit overwhelmed,really wanted to keep it more simple.Maybe I make it more complex than need be.Someday I will go there but for now simple is better.

Duke,not sure what you meant by noise unless you were referring to tubes and micrphonics,as I said I'm kinda exploring tubes at this point in my system and would hope they could add some more magic to the sound.

Chris,I appreciate your thoughts and enthusiasm for your setup,bet it sounds good.I know all about Rod Elliott as his article on biamping and Shawns 2 way LaScala thread were the inspiration for my current setup.Great site with lots of good info.

Greg

[mafuta]

Why not try the Marchand XM 46 passive line level crossover?

1.It does the same job as any active

2.It adds no noise ,unlike any active.Great for hi eff speakers.Fantastic for biamping Khorns

3.It sounds great.I use one in an ambitious 4 way quad amped all horn system with great results.

4. Gain loss is minimal

5. It is cheap and if you are willing to solder , easy to assemble,even as a starter project.

6.Neatly sidesteps the tube/ss debate

5It is really simple and cannot break.

6 It 's cheap whilst still using high quality parts

[steamer]

Why not try the Marchand XM 46 passive line level crossover?

1.It does the same job as any active

2.It adds no noise ,unlike any active.Great for hi eff speakers.Fantastic for biamping Khorns

3.It sounds great.I use one in an ambitious 4 way quad amped all horn system with great results.

4. Gain loss is minimal

5. It is cheap and if you are willing to solder , easy to assemble,even as a starter project.

6.Neatly sidesteps the tube/ss debate

5It is really simple and cannot break.

6 It 's cheap whilst still using high quality parts

I can say its on my list.

Checked your prophile and see lots of TUBES!! cool

I see you also have an AR CD1,I had the CD2 for a few years but went with the Levinson for its volume control and pre section.Just trying to simplify the system.

Greg

[steamer]

Only problem would be the lack of level controls but they make some very good actives including the tube version

Greg

[mafuta]

Don't know if we're talking about the same thing ,but the Marchand XM46 do have volume control on all channels.You can also choose no not install them.

[steamer]

Don't know if we're talking about the same thing ,but the Marchand XM46 do have volume control on all channels.You can also choose no not install them.

I thought you wrote it was passive and a line level component,I then assumed it had no volume controls.If it does then I need to look closer.I really like the xm44 with the opt. 48db slopes.

Greg

[steamer]

Don't know if we're talking about the same thing ,but the Marchand XM46 do have volume control on all channels.You can also choose no not install them.

Just looked on the Marchand site and see they offer level attenuators,didnt see that before.

Greg

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I have checked out the Behringer and Yamaha.Love the versatility of these but the functions are all in the digital domain and just wouldn't work using my CDP volume for system level,a bit to limiting for me,as I would lose resolution unless I had it maxed out.

Go with whatever you feel that is right for your system. I followed Shawn's advice and created 4 different presets. High, medium, low and vlow. High is at full output, med is -9 db, low is -18 db and vlow is -24 db. I find that I always run in it "low" and the meters light up telling me that I am not losing resolution. The attenuation is analog. These things are very versital.

Chris

PS - I don't know anything about the tube crossover other than reading the manufacturer's site. My point was that you get a lot more when buying a pro production unit because of economies of scale and low advertising. The Yamaha is a $3,000 unit that can be had cheap.

[Duke Spinner]

I also have lot's of Yamaha signal processing stuff ...

it's highly regarded

[sfogg]

Greg,

"Love the versatility of these but the functions are all in the digital domain and just wouldn't work using my CDP volume for system level,a bit to limiting for me,as I would lose resolution unless I had it maxed out."

True that you loose resolution if you do volume ahead of the crossover (I do)... but you also need to keep that in perspective.

Resolution is simply another way of saying Signal to Noise ratio.

In the Behringers case it is rated at 113dB SNR. That is for full scale input into the processor and full scale output. If you don't have full scale in/out the SNR/Resolution is lower.

Two questions to ask yourself....

1) How loud do you listen at maximum?

2) What is the noise floor in your room?

Subtract 2 from 1 and that is the max. possible SNR/resolution in your system anyway. Likely that number will be well below the 113dB figure of the Behringer. If you come up with say 60dB (which would be pretty large) consider what happens to the system if you attenuated the Behringer input (and therefor its) output by 50dB.

Now the Behringer has 113-50dB of SNR/resolution... IOW it has about 63dB of SNR/resolution at this point. However the signal in your room is only 10dB above your rooms noise floor. IOW you system now has a max SNR/resolution of about 10dB.... the Behringer still has dramatically more resolution then what your system is capable of in this case.

All the above is assuming the levels in/out of the Behringer are maximized at the loudest you listen to of course.

The same sort of thing happens with an analog crossover too. Its just a little harder to figure it all as you don't have easy indicators for signal level/overload on most analog crossovers. The analog crossover will have a relatively fixed noise floor too. The lower the signal level into the crossover the closer to the crossovers noise floor it is.... the less resolution there is through the crossover.

And in reality the exact same thing happens even without a line level crossover in the system. Your systems resolution is definied by the SNR of the entire system. If one is listening at 90dB in a room with 50dB of background noise they have 40dB of SNR. If they then turn down the volume to 80dB the resolution of the system has dropped.... now they only have 30dB SNR.

Shawn

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Greg, "Love the versatility of these but the functions are all in the digital domain and just wouldn't work using my CDP volume for system level,a bit to limiting for me,as I would lose resolution unless I had it maxed out." True that you loose resolution if you do volume ahead of the crossover (I do)... but you also need to keep that in perspective. Resolution is simply another way of saying Signal to Noise ratio. In the Behringers case it is rated at 113dB SNR. That is for full scale input into the processor and full scale output. If you don't have full scale in/out the SNR/Resolution is lower. Two questions to ask yourself.... 1) How loud do you listen at maximum? 2) What is the noise floor in your room? Subtract 2 from 1 and that is the max. possible SNR/resolution in your system anyway. Likely that number will be well below the 113dB figure of the Behringer. If you come up with say 60dB (which would be pretty large) consider what happens to the system if you attenuated the Behringer input (and therefor its) output by 50dB. Now the Behringer has 113-50dB of SNR/resolution... IOW it has about 63dB of SNR/resolution at this point. However the signal in your room is only 10dB above your rooms noise floor. IOW you system now has a max SNR/resolution of about 10dB.... the Behringer still has dramatically more resolution then what your system is capable of in this case. All the above is assuming the levels in/out of the Behringer are maximized at the loudest you listen to of course. The same sort of thing happens with an analog crossover too. Its just a little harder to figure it all as you don't have easy indicators for signal level/overload on most analog crossovers. The analog crossover will have a relatively fixed noise floor too. The lower the signal level into the crossover the closer to the crossovers noise floor it is.... the less resolution there is through the crossover. And in reality the exact same thing happens even without a line level crossover in the system. Your systems resolution is definied by the SNR of the entire system. If one is listening at 90dB in a room with 50dB of background noise they have 40dB of SNR. If they then turn down the volume to 80dB the resolution of the system has dropped.... now they only have 30dB SNR. Shawn

Shawn,

Thanks for explaining that because I did not notice any difference at all when creating the different presets. I usually can hear the difference when I make a change and it makes sense now.

Chris

[steamer]

Great explanation,thanks.

I think I have to give this idea another chance.I had some preconcieved ideas relating to a review on a Wadia CDP that controls volume in the digital domain.A system level is limited with that unit and supposedly it is prefered to run the volume as close to the upper limit so as not to lose resolution of the signal.

The preset capability for different levels changes things alot in my mind.

As for the price its a steal with all the capabilities of these units.I had a hard time choosing between Als ESN's and the active route,and I could achieve the same results of both with this.

Notice how I am talking myself into it!

Hell if it doesnt work for me someone here would probably relieve me of it.

I read the online manual the other day and wow,overwhelming the first time.I guess I have to read it about 5 more times for it all to sink in,then I will probably own one.Get ready for some emails Shawn LOL

Greg

[sfogg]

"and supposedly it is prefered to run the volume as close to the upper limit so as not to lose resolution of the signal."

That is true it is. But thinking about that in isolation without

considering the rest of the system is sort of misleading. Also the

Wadia may be an older unit with less resolution to begin with.

That is why I setup my systems levels in/out of the Behringer such that

the loudest I listen at is within a couple of dB of max signal level

both in and out of the Behringer. That lets me start off with just

about the max amount of resolution (SNR) through the crossover as

possible. Not doing that could end up with very different results then

what I have.

How much voltage ouput can your CD player put out? And/or does it have

balanced outputs? You need pretty close to pro levels on the input of

the Behringer to drive it to full scale. Not all pre-amps can do that.

And on the same token you will end up basically pro levels out of the

Behringer so you will likely need some attenuation on the inputs of

your amps to make the system gain reasonable. If you amps have input

volume controls on them that will work fine. Otherwise simple voltage

dividers (2 resistors per input) will work fine too.

"The preset capability for different levels changes things alot in my mind."

That is on the Yamaha, not the Behringers.

"I had a hard time choosing between Als ESN's and the active route,and I could achieve the same results of both with this."

You need a fair amount of DSP power if you want to setup very high

slope crossovers in the DSP units. I don't know if the Yamaha's can do

it. The Behringers can and they also have steeper slopes as built in

options.

"I read the online manual the other day and wow,overwhelming the first

time.I guess I have to read it about 5 more times for it all to sink

in,then I will probably own one."

Download the Behringer control software for your PC and play around

with it. You will find it makes a lot more sense when you look at it

that way. It really isn't hard to use at all with the software. Far

better then doing it by the front panel IMO.

Shawn

[steamer]

Shawn,

I am starting to see a bigger picture here and want to give it a try.

How much voltage ouput can your CD player put out? And/or does it have balanced outputs? You need pretty close to pro levels on the input of the Behringer to drive it to full scale. Not all pre-amps can do that. And on the same token you will end up basically pro levels out of the Behringer so you will likely need some attenuation on the inputs of your amps to make the system gain reasonable. If you amps have input volume controls on them that will work fine. Otherwise simple voltage dividers (2 resistors per input) will work fine too.

The levinson has xlr outs with a max level of 4.45 volts.My whole system is pro gear with attenuation on the inputs,I use xlr connectors everywhere except for the inputs to the SET's which I use adapters for.

Download the Behringer control software for your PC and play around with it. You will find it makes a lot more sense when you look at it that way. It really isn't hard to use at all with the software. Far better then doing it by the front panel IMO.

I will do that

Thanks Shawn and Tiger,

Greg