2 full range mains, or 2 bookshelfs & a sub?

[swampwiz]

I am thinking that 2 bookshelfs and a sub is better than 2 full range floorstanders. I used to have a full range speaker system (Gershman Acoustics X-1 & SW-1, destroyed by hurricane last season), and will only get the X-1 bookshelfs along with a sub. I figure that by having a separate sub, that I have more control in the bass (as opposed to a full range in which there is only the control that the manufacturer sets it at.) It would seem that a good bookshelf speaker that goes down to around 40-50 Hz or so would contain all the directional part of the sound, with the sub only supplying the really low bass.

What do you all think?

[Guest " "]

if you can match the bookshelf and sub correctly, i find that using that combination provides cleaner bass and mid-bass.

issues..

amplified subs need an RCA output on yor amp or reciever or have to be connected in line with existing speakerwire runs...(may require longer lenths of wire than normal).

[oldbuckster]

Would you consider 2 Heresy's and a sub, or do you have those other speakers now?

[DrWho]

I very much prefer a good pair of full range mains versus two sats and

a sub. Bass is omnidirectional yes, but it is certainly not

unlocalizeable. It totally ruins the stereo image to move to a single

subwoofer. You will notice quite a few nuts on the forum going through

great lengths to maintain a stereo image.

Depending on the floorstander and the bookshelf equivalent you can

expect less distortion from the floorstander as well as better

directionality - which will decrease the magnitude of acoustical issues

in the room and result again in a better stereo image.

Basically, the only reason to go with bookshelf speakers is when the smaller size is required.

As far as "control over the bass" is concerned - the correct tool for

the job would be tone controls or an equalizer - not the individual

volume of drivers in your system. You absolutely want the frequency

response of your speakers to be flat - which is what the manufacturers

are already doing for you.

[Guest " "]

folks are using subs with K-horns, LaScala's, and certainly

Hersey's. But as I said...you have to consider the highest cut

off frequency the sub can support as well as the lowest frequency the

main speakers can reproduce.

if you are talking mains that have 12 inch drivers...this will not be an issue.

but if you are talking about bookshelf speakers with 4 or 6 inch

drivers....you need to take a look at the lowest frequency the mains

can handle. example...you do not want a 12 inch sub that can

reach up to 120hz, and have bookshelf speakers with 3 inch drivers that

can't reach below 200HZ.

[steamer]

I very much prefer a good pair of full range mains versus two sats and a sub. Bass is omnidirectional yes, but it is certainly not unlocalizeable. It totally ruins the stereo image to move to a single subwoofer. You will notice quite a few nuts on the forum going through great lengths to maintain a stereo image.

Depending on the floorstander and the bookshelf equivalent you can expect less distortion from the floorstander as well as better directionality - which will decrease the magnitude of acoustical issues in the room and result again in a better stereo image.

Basically, the only reason to go with bookshelf speakers is when the smaller size is required.

As far as "control over the bass" is concerned - the correct tool for the job would be tone controls or an equalizer - not the individual volume of drivers in your system. You absolutely want the frequency response of your speakers to be flat - which is what the manufacturers are already doing for you.

Mike,

I am confused here LOL.For starters I dont think I am a nut [] and my stereo image is just fine in fact better recently [].If a sub is crossed over properly with the mains and the correct level is set then how is it worse like you have stated?Many people use subs on this forum and I have never heard a complaint about imaging.Yes it takes time to find the correct position for the sub but not that hard to get good sound.If you free up some of the bass duties of the sat.then it should be less disorted due to less power required for the amp driving it as well as less cone excursion ie no low freq seen by the low driver.

As far as tone controls and EQ's that is just another step the signal has to go thru and imho is a step backwards to getting closer to the sound.

Greg

[DrWho]

If you free up some of the bass duties of the sat.then it should be

less disorted due to less power required for the amp driving it as well

as less cone excursion ie no low freq seen by the low driver.

The distortion curves for amplifiers don't work the same way as

speakers...sometimes increasing the power output will even lower

distortion. Nevertheless, a good general rule of thumb is that

amplifier distortion doesn't start to matter until you run into

non-linear behavior (ie, clipping and thermal compression) - get the

right amplifier for the job and this will not be an issue.

In the case of floorstander versus bookshelf...in almost every case the

floorstanders have more driver surface area than the bookshelves. And

most full-range floorstanders will even have more surface area than

that of subwoofers. All other things being equal, the system with the

most surface area should have the least amount of distortion over the

shared passband. So in the frequencies that the floorstanders and

bookshelf speakers share - the floorstanders are going to have less

distortion. And if you keep it apples to apples, a subwoofer system

with the same F3 is going to have more cone-movement than the

floorstanders as well. (Take for instance F3 versus B3 + Sub-10). The

downside is an increase in IMD (which is a function of the width of the

passband).

As far as tone controls and EQ's that is just another step

the signal has to go thru and imho is a step backwards to getting

closer to the sound.

If you are that concerned about signal purity, then I would have to

ask why one is listening to source material that was recorded poorly

and is then concerned about maintaining that crap in the signal []

There are EQ's and tone controls that can very easily be bypassed

with a remote, but it's rather difficult to tweak the volume of your

sub all the time. So if signal purity is an issue for you, then by all

means seak out a bypassable option.

Anyways, to make this discussion profitable we're going to have to get

down to specific examples. All I'm saying is that an equally performing

stereo system is going to outperform an equally performing

stereo/partial mono system. I'm all for using subwoofers and find that

they work better when implemented in stereo pairs - ala Klipsch THX

Ultra2 []

[risingjay]

I would go with full range like the chorus, fortes or cornwalls and use a DIY cylinder Sub. Use an external Bass Management System to set your X-over points. So you would set the bass management to send music 40Hz and lower to the sub or you can send the music 60Hz and under to the sub.

This is what I am in the process of.

There are many sites into how to build your own Cylinder Sub. There has also been a lot of threads here about DIY subs.

Good luck in whatever route you take.

[DrWho]

Are you going to detail the process of your DIY job? I'm sure there's a bunch of guys that would like to learn from your experiences. (They usually do it in the powered subwoofer section).

[steamer]

Mike said:

Anyways, to make this discussion profitable we're going to have to get down to specific examples. All I'm saying is that an equally performing stereo system is going to outperform an equally performing stereo/partial mono system. I'm all for using subwoofers and find that they work better when implemented in stereo pairs - ala Klipsch THX Ultra2

Mike,

I am saying that it can be done correctly with good results with a quality bookshelf.The benifit of a smaller 2way is its imageing ability.and bass augmentation really allows them to sing.It doesnt always have to be about surface area.In the right room it could be a great sounding system that has good stereo image capability.As you said specific situations.I must have misread another post but I thought you didnt care for stereo subs.

also you said:

If you are that concerned about signal purity, then I would have to ask why one is listening to source material that was recorded poorly and is then concerned about maintaining that crap in the signal

I try not to listen to poor source material,in fact most of it is pretty darn good,even alot of older material.My point is why degrade a good signal with an EQ and another set of interconnects?

Greg

[DrWho]

I am saying that it can be done correctly with good results with a quality bookshelf.The benifit of a smaller 2way is its imageing ability.

I would argue that you can always achieve at least identical imaging with a floorstander - heck, just use the same parts as a bookshelf with another driver right below it and put the 'bookshelf part' where you would normally put an actual bookshelf speaker.

As you said specific situations.I must have misread another post but I thought you didnt care for stereo subs.

I often mention that one will usually obtain better performance for the same price with a single better sub than two lesser subs...but this is in context to people looking to spend a small amount on their subwoofer setup. There eventually comes a point of diminishing returns where the move to a solid stereo image becomes more significant than another few dB or Hz. I'd say it starts to occur somewhere around the $1,000 - $3,000 range.

I try not to listen to poor source material,in fact most of it is pretty darn good,even alot of older material.My point is why degrade a good signal with an EQ and another set of interconnects?

If your source material is good then you shouldn't need to deviate from a flat frequency response. My recommendation to use EQ / tone controls was directed towards the idea of "needing" to control individual driver volume. I was merely pointing out that EQ / tone control is a better tool to use than the subwoofer volume knob.

[maxg]

Complicated issue:

Depends upon:

The room, the music, the speakers, the crossover point, the supporting amp, the means of connecting the sub and who knows what else.

The bookshelf / sub option got a bad name with sub/sat implementations where the crossover point was set too high. In essence the lower the cross-over point the less directional the sub's input is.

As a rule of thumb you do not want a sub to be going over 80 Hz for music playback - and lower than that is ideal.

This means that your bookshelf speakers should really be able to descend lower that that in terms of the output at -3dB.

When I ran Heresy 2 speakers I measured usable output down to 50 Hz in my room. I set the sub (a Rel Strata 3) to come in at that level give of take a couple of dB and the result was excellent soundstaging with a relatively flat response all the way down to 20 Hz (something not many floor-standers can do).

An indication of how seamless the integration was between sub and speakers was that most people (including audiophile golden ears) had no idea the sub was playing until I switched it off.

Is it a better option than floorstanders?

Can't really answer that one. In theory it could be but these things are more about personal preference than anything else. It is different is about all you can say with any degree of certainty.

Having said all of that watch for how the sub connects to your system. IME any system that connects to the sub via the LFE output is not going to produce a very musical result.

On the other hand - if you are connecting your sub to either the pre-outs or the speaker outs of your 2 channel pre-amp / amp then you do have a very good shot at getting a musical result.

As regards cabling - one of the nice things about the Rel was that it came with its own speaker out connector that was very long indeed (never measured it - 10 meters?). Made placement easy.

[swampwiz]

These are not dinky sats. These are speakers that don't need subs to sound good, but I am looking for the complete full range sound in which I can control the bass very accurately. I don't wish to have the regular tone controls because it seems that the best amps don't have them as they degrade the sound.

I could get the matching passive subs for these speakers, but then to get the proper control I would need a separate amp (or do I?) And in any case, if I get a sub like the Velodyne DD series, I get an incredible aount of control. That's why it seems better to me.