I didn't know what I had!!! :)

[fgarib]

Hello all!

I'm just soooo excited that I haven't slept all night... and the first thing I wanted to do was post here and get some feedback from you folks and send my thanks for all the help I've been getting.

First the background though: I've been slooooooowly building my HT for the past couple of years, and it all came to a peak last year when I finally purchased a Lexicon MC-8 Digital Controller. Since then, my mains have been switching back and forth between a pair of KHorns, and an old pair of KG's that I had laying around, and I kept experimenting with all the available time that I had, which was just not much. But that soon ended after a few weeks, when my wife got pregnant.

Even though her pregnancy was very smooth, her demands (as husbands with wives who are / have been pregnant know very well) just shot up! So I had to spend a ton of time with her, and even when we watched movies together, NO TWEAKING WAS ALLOWED!!

Fast forward a few months, baby comes, diapers fly, sleepless nights abound, and, to make a long story short, I didn't have time to so much as scratch my head, let alone mess around with the HT setup. Also, in the middle, I was travelling continuously for almost 3 months, so that didnt' help my cause either.

Anyways, yesterday at 4:00, my wife and BEEEEAUTIFUL baby daughter boarded a plane to visit my inlaws for 2 weeks, and 4:17, I was in front of the tv, tweaking, modding, adjusting...

The only different thing I did this time, was spend a loooong time calibrating distances and levels. And for the first time, I ended up using the SPL Meter (Nady, not Radio Shack) that I bought a couple of months ago...

.... My God! I think I saw Him. The experience was just unreal! I had used my ears to do the setup when I first finalized the setup, and it was nice and all... but nothing like last night.

The illusion of surround sound was eerie almost. There were just no speakers in my room.

Now if you see my earlier post about lacking punch in my HT, you'll know that I was on the verge of being very very disappointed with my setup and the amount of money that I had spent on it.

So the moral of the story here is: Don't trust your ears to do a setup. Be sure to have the right tools for this job.

There's not much to this post... I just HAD to get this off my chest to people who would understand the feeling that i'm going through. My eyes are shutting down from lack of sleep, I can't concentrate at work... but I can't wait to get back in front of my system again.

Regards,

Fauzi

[sfogg]

Fauzi,

"The only different thing I did this time, was spend a loooong time calibrating distances and levels. And for the first time, I ended up using the SPL Meter (Nady, not Radio Shack) that I bought a couple of months ago..."

Yup, as you have found proper calibration is *key*!

Another tweak you can try which can be very effective.

Put the Lex. in Logic 7 Music. Go into Mode Adjust and be sure 'Center Steering' is set to Music.

Now play something with heavy central vocals in it.

Go into the Speaker setup for Distances. Move to the Center channel setting. Now try adjusting this closer/further away while the music is playing. Be sitting in your sweet spot. Listen to how the sound changes between the three speakers as you 'reposition' the center speaker. You should find a setting where the center channel just snaps into focus and the realism of the vocals gets that much better. Leave it there.

"The illusion of surround sound was eerie almost. There were just no speakers in my room."

Are you running 5 or 7 speakers?

Shawn

BTW, is your MC-8 v1 or v2? If you have v2 and the mics when your daughter gets to the point of laughing and making noises (other then crying of course ) setup the mics and try LIVE on the Lexicon. My daugher always got a big kick out of it and just had a huge amount of fun with that.

[SilverSport]

Hey Fauzi...that's MY story! [] interestingly, I had set eveything with the RatShack Meter and didn't like it...(says perhaps I did it wrong!) and preferred when I set it up "by ear."

VERY pleased you have it dialed in the way you like it...

Enjoy!

Bill

[sfogg]

"I had set eveything with the RatShack Meter and didn't like it...(says perhaps I did it wrong!) and preferred when I set it up "by ear."

Different equipment calibrates a little differently when you use meters because the calibration noise they use are not always the same. For example if one piece of equipment used noise that wasn't band limited a bass peak could kick up the measured SPL but in most listening that channel would sound a little too low in normal listening.

Also, there are actually a couple of ways you can use the meter which changes how they results work.

The 'standard' way is to have the meter pointing up at the listening position and balancing all channels that way.

However, if after doing that if for example one finds that the sides are too distracting rebalancing and this time pointing the meter at each side speaker when you are doing this can help. The net effect will typically be that the sides will be balanced a couple of dB lower when you point the meter directly at them and that can help. This is a useful trick if one is pretty close to their sides for example.

The other thing is in the Lexicon's 'by ear' isn't really good enough even if you do a great job balancing the relative levels. The Lexicon's base some of their processing (Loudness control and the Auto Compression on DD) on knowing what the actual SPL level is at the listening position and they only way they can do that is by a proper calibration to the known SPL level during the setup. Doing this also gives the user some additional info on how loud they are listening. Once the Lexicon is calibrated the volume control (like on most THX certified equipment) actually can tell the listener what the maximum possible peak SPL per speaker is at the listening position.

Shawn

[fgarib]

Shawn,

Heeey! I'm so glad you showed up, because I say it over and over, but it's you that I have to thank for convincing me to get the Lex... It's amazing how OBVIOUSLY better it is compared to many of the other processors I've had.

Another tweak you can try which can be very effective. Put the Lex. in Logic 7 Music...

Gonna give that a shot tonight... Been dying to plug in Norah Jones' Come Away With Me. Will get back to you about it.

Are you running 5 or 7 speakers?

7. Had the KHorns in the front temporarily till I got DeanG's x-over plugged in. That's something else I did last night (Man, oh man was I busy! Check out my post in the 2 channel section. Anyway, I replaced them with an old pair of KG2's that I have, paired it with an RC-3 Center that a friend gave to me, and two pairs of non matching (non-Klipsch) surrounds for the sides and rears. Just got a brand new REL Stampede which I posted about in the SMR forums, and am right now in the process of setting that up. Next thing I'm going to do in the next couple of days is replace my sides to a pair of SS 5's to match the fronts. The rears I'm going to leave as they are.

Just for kicks, I put the KG's on the floor, and the center on top of my 62" Rear projection Toshiba... So there's a gap of about 3' between the top of the KG and center. This I was told was a complete no no... But it just sounded so darn good. I never realized what was meant by a wall of sound. What do you think about that?

BTW, is your MC-8 v1 or v2?

V2. I have LIVE in there, but I have yet to mess around with it. Can't bring myself to spend that extra 500 bucks on the mics. Any way that you know of to get them cheap? I'm sure my daughter would love it... but I can think of at least one other person that might love it just a tad bit more!

BTW, I can't seem to get the darn triggers going. On my previous receivers, the 12 v trigger outputs were little headphone type pin connectors (I don't know the technical name of that pin! ). On the Lex, it's that removable terminal. So I took one end of that old pin cable that I had, and spliced it and put in one side into the + and one into the - of the PWR trigger. The other side of hte cable, I left as is, and plugged it into the amp. Nothing... I figured that should do it but it didn't. What am I missing?

Also, I could never get Panorama to work previously with the KHorns, but I figured the trouble was with the corner placement of the speaker... I tried for a little bit last night with the KG's... still no cigar. Any ideas off the top of your head? Will mess around with it some more anyway... but if you anything springs to mind, let me know.

-Fauzi

[fgarib]

Bill,

"Hey Fauzi...that's MY story!"

You're so right... it IS your story. You're the one that set me off after I followed your post about your all Heresy HT. If you remember, I did post along in there and told you that I was experiencing similar issues.

I don't have it "dialled in" just yet.. but I'm leaps and bounds ahead of where I started. BEST 50 bucks this forum ever convinced me to spend!

-Fauzi

[sfogg]

Hi Fauzi,

Your welcome, glad I could help.

"... It's amazing how OBVIOUSLY better it is compared to many of the other processors I've had."

Lexicon has been doing this sort of thing a long, long time and it shows in their products.....

Glad to hear you are running 7 speakers. As good as 5 sounds, 7 speakers (with Logic 7) beats it. Making your side speakers match the fronts is more important then the rears so that is worthwhile.

" So there's a gap of about 3' between the top of the KG and center. This I was told was a complete no no... But it just sounded so darn good."

You can get away with it and if that is your only option then don't worry about it.

But if it is possible the closer in height they are the better. Wether that means lowering the center or raising L/R is up to you. What can happen with the mismatched height is during a pan in a movie if someone is talking you can sometimes notice their voice jump go from say relatively low in the left to higher up in the center then back down in the right speaker. Our localization isn't as sensitive in the vertical plane though so mismatched height can work, it just isn't optimum.

If you listen to music in surround you may also notice the mismatch there more. The singer will seem taller then the rest of the band.

"Can't bring myself to spend that extra 500 bucks on the mics."

Understand that. Keep an eye on Audiogon and such. Every once in awhile a set of Mics goes through there for pretty cheap. A 2 mic kit went through a couple of weeks back for around $200 I think but they sold very very quickly.

"I'm sure my daughter would love it... but I can think of at least one other person that might love it just a tad bit more! :)"

LIVE is funny. If you don't play an instrument I think it doesn't have a whole lot of use for most people other then entertaining their kids. Don't get me wrong, it does exactly what it claims to do.. just that for most people that isn't a terribly useful function. For musicians they used to have to get a Lexicon LARES system for that functionality which as I understand it was considerably more expensive.

Still I think it would be fun to hook up LIVE in an outdoor system some year for Halloween to really freak out the kids.

" I figured that should do it but it didn't. What am I missing?"

Did you get the polarity correct? Some equipment cares about polarity, some doesn't. If your amp/power center cares and you have it backwards it wouldn't turn on.

Make sure you are using the PWR trigger not the programmable trigger.

Other then that make sure you are getting good connections on the trigger block. You did tighten down the screws in it correct? Also... in case you don't know that block comes out of the Lexicon to work on it. Just pull straight out and it pops out. Some people don't realize that and drive themselves nuts trying to work on it with it attached to the Lex.

"Any ideas off the top of your head? "

Calibration is key to Panorama too. Read the manual on how it is calibrated and try walking through it. If that doesn't help download the manuals for say a DC-1 and read their sections on Panorama. I think the calibration procedure was a little clearer in the older manuals. Also read the DC-1s 'Theory and Design' booklet as it gives further information on how Panorama works in it.

The older Lexicon's had a calibration noise in them that the new models no longer have. I always thought it was easier to calibrate with the noise. If you have a CD with mono pink noise on it try using that when calibrating Panorama. Don't even bother trying to figure the speaker angle, just set that by ear listening to the music.

Also, with Panorama be sure you are located equally between both speakers in the sweet spot. That makes the initial calibration easier. And once you calibrate Panorama the sweet spot is small so don't expect it to work sitting elsewhere.

Always a fun demonstration... when you are calibrating Panorama and have it so you just hear the noise on the left or right speaker alone stand up and walk around. It is always freaky when you then hear that both speakers are actually playing the signal even though in the sweet spot you only hear one speaker.

Have fun getting the REL setup and if you have other questions feel free to fire away!

Shawn

[fgarib]

Hey there Shawn,

"You can get away with it and if that is your only option then don't worry about it"

I did raise the L/R's so that they are now only about a foot apart. I think I still prefer the soundstage that I get with them on the floor, but I'm going to run it like this for a few source materials and then put them back on the floor and check them out.

"Make sure you are using the PWR trigger not the programmable trigger."

I am using the PWR trigger and I did pull the block out! (Though it did take me a few seconds to figure out that it comes out! ) And nothing seems to work. I tried to change the polarity, but it was late at night and I think I tried the reversed polarity in the other trigger... will give it a shot tonight.

Panorama: I'm going to try doing it and also further tuning the entire set up with the Avia DVD that I got. I bought it along with the SPL meter, and if this is the improvement I've got with the SPL, can't wait to try the DVD.

BTW, one question that'll probably end up being theoretical in nature. I messed around quite a bit with Logic 7, both Music and Film modes. What are the differences? I was watching recorded episodes of Jail Break last night (not the most testing of sources, but hey! I needed to catch up!) and I found that L7 Music is far more enveloping mode. In fact, it felt like L7 Film was very "forward" biased.. IOW, it didn't seem that the surrounds played much of a part at all. Now since these are download episodes, I don't imagine the encoding would have come with it... So I'm thinking that the Lex sees it as a 2 channel source. Why then would there be such a HUGE difference in how Music parses it and how Film does?

I'm sure I should be posting this on SMR's forums, but I'm hoping that more people would end up seeing these posts and buying into Lex products.... no matter what current Lex owners think about the upgrade policy to the MC12HD!!!

Thanks once again, man.

Fauzi

PS: Where can I get some information on the theory behind surround sound in general? It just seems to me that so many people understand the nitty gritty behind it, and all I can talk about is how much better it sounds... will check out the DC-1 document that you mentioned.

PPS: And I did get the REL set up. It's definitely not easy getting a subwoofer seamlessly matched, but I think I'm on my way there... Can you tell I'm loving life these days?

EDIT: PPPS: What Lexicon amp are you selling? Been looking for an LX series amp for a long time... Wanted to buy it used.

[sfogg]

Fauzi,

"I think I still prefer the soundstage that I get with them on the floor, but I'm going to run it like this for a few source materials and then put them back on the floor and check them out."

Go with whatever you prefer of course.

"I bought it along with the SPL meter, and if this is the improvement I've got with the SPL, can't wait to try the DVD."

The phase tests on AVIA are nice but for setting channel levels I think the internal test tones are better. AVIA isn't built really to set levels on 7 speakers as well as the Lexicon does it.

"I messed around quite a bit with Logic 7, both Music and Film modes. What are the differences? "

Mostly just how the default settings are configured and what settings are available in each mode. Same thing with Logic 7 TV. In fact using say L7 TV as a way of saving an alternate bunch of settings is a fairly common practice.

"it felt like L7 Film was very "forward" biased.. IOW, it didn't seem that the surrounds played much of a part at all."

Compare the 'SoundStage' setting in each mode. Film might be set to Front and Music to Rear for example. The Surround Rolloff and Rear Speaker Offset can have an effect on that too.

If you need it each mode also has an option to restore it to Defaults (as well as listen to your current settings compared to default). So if you play around with the settings and don't like where you ended up it is easy to restore the mode.

" I don't imagine the encoding would have come with it... So I'm thinking that the Lex sees it as a 2 channel source."

Actually surround information can be encoded into a 2 channel source using the various matrix encoding sources.

"PS: Where can I get some information on the theory behind surround sound in general? "

The 'Theory and Design' booklet I mentioned is actually a pretty good read about that sort of thing.

There is *loads* of information on this page though the organization leaves something to be desired...

http://www.std.com/~griesngr/

That is the homepage of the guy that created Logic 7.

Other then that hang around SMR for awhile, as you likely noticed there is a smart group of people there. Some of us that hang out there (and on CEAUDIO before that) have basically been doing that for 12 or so years... you tend to pick up a couple of tidbits in that amount of time.

" What Lexicon amp are you selling? Been looking for an LX series amp for a long time... Wanted to buy it used."

Can't help you there, I don't have any Lexicon amps. I just refurb. some DC-1s (and a DC-2 at the moment) from time to time. The LX series are supposed to be very nice amps though. The NT series before them were rebadged Brystons so they are solid too.

Have fun,

Shawn

[fgarib]

" What Lexicon amp are you selling? Been looking for an LX series amp for a long time... Wanted to buy it used." Can't help you there, I don't have any Lexicon amps. I just refurb. some DC-1s (and a DC-2 at the moment) from time to time. The LX series are supposed to be very nice amps though. The NT series before them were rebadged Brystons so they are solid too. Have fun, Shawn

Hey there,

Thanks for taking the time out to answer all the questions I had. Unfortunately, SMR has slowed down a bit these days. Hopefully the forum changes take place soon, and the forum gets rolling again.

I had asked about the amp, becuase I remember reading in one of the threads on the 2 channel forum that you were selling a Lex amp... I think it was DeanG's "FS: Peach" thread. Just thought I'd ask.

-Fauzi

[sfogg]

"becuase I remember reading in one of the threads on the 2 channel forum that you were selling a Lex amp... I think it was DeanG's "FS: Peach" thread."

That was a DC-1surround processor, not an amplifier.

BTW, thought of another good paper on setting up Panorama. Check out this one:

http://www.smr-group.org/pdf/Calibrating_Panorama.pdf

Shawn