Edison Phonograph

[Marvel]

My best friend from guitar playing highschool days was working at the Edison site for a few years. He sent me this email in Feb. of 2003:

"Had

an interesting experience this past week at work. In the main building

of the Edison lab, up on the 3rd floor, is a room known as the Music

Room. It is called that because it is supposed to be the first

recording studio, and Edison did a lot of recording there for a variety

of purposes. This past Monday it was set up to record again. Although

there were cameras and modern recording equipment, the primary

recording equipment was an original Edison phonograph, recording on a

wax cylinder, just as the original recording set-up was. On Tuesday we

did the recording. We had Daniel Rodriguez come and record his

rendition of "God Bless America" on a wax cylinder. Then, Peter, Paul

and Mary came and recorded "If I Had a Hammer" and "Blowing in the

Wind" on wax cylinders, and then we had a fellow named Bucky

Pizzarelli, who is a jazz guitarist, do his thing. It was quite a

day. This is apparently the first of several sessions to come. The

thing is that a selection of artists are recording on the historical

equipment, in the room that gave birth to the modern recording

industry. A documentary is being filmed about this project. Word is

that next up is James Taylor and Billy Joel. They are to be followed

by Bruce Springstein and Bon Jovi, and hopefully, in the end, Paul

McCartney.

For me, their were many interesting moments. On that Monday previous,

when they were setting things up, and testing the equipment, one fellow

was doing some practice recordings using a Dobro belonging to the

fellow who was doing the wax recording. The problem was that this guy

was playing too softly to be picked up clearly. He wanted a tune with

some "punch" to it. My Curator of Recorded Sound suggested that I be

put up there as he knew I could "punch" out a tune or two. So up I

went and did my rendition of Spider John's "Don't Wanna be Terrified."

It was great. When it was played back, you could hear it clearly and

it sounded like it had been recorded 75 years ago. So, I got to do a

wax cylinder recording in Edison's original recording studio. I even

got to keep the wax cylinder as a souvenir. Not too bad. I thought

you could appreciate it."

He emailed later and told me they were putting his recording on CD for the archives too. What a cool thing.

Bruce

[colterphoto1]

Very cool Bruce, thanks for sharing that here.

Can you describe the sound in more detail? I mean , you had played it and heard it in that room, then you heard a modern recording made on a wax cylinder. When you say, it sounded like it was recorded 75 years ago, was it scratchiness, lack of dynamics, limited bandwidth, what gave it that 'old' feeling?

Thanks.

Michael

[lwhaples]

Michael, Nice pic's! Thanks for sharing your family history.Makes me want to hear one someday.

Larry

[Marvel]

Michael,

I haven't heard it myself yet. He has gotten the CD though, so I can probably get him to pass a copy on to me. I would assume all the things you mention. Scratchiness, no bottom end. Has to be a pretty limited bandwidth.

He has moved to Ft. Carlisle in Pennsylvania, working at the military museum there. Due ot our schedules, we haven't been able to get together for quite a few years. [] That is a real bummer, as I would like for the two of us to record some tunes while we are still both able to play.

Bruce

[Def Leper]

I don't own an edison disc player at this time but I've owned a number in the past. My main player is a very ornate Brunswick floor model with the Ultona reproducer that will play both styles of discs. I also have a number of Victor table-top models and few portables, too. I'll try to post a picture of the Brunswick.

Almost all the players you see in antique mall are overpriced, but there are some good deals, usually after the dealer has paid the mall for a year or so to display it for them.

Generally, anything with an outside horn will command a much higher price than inside models. It's rare to see anything with an outside horn sell for less than $500 and not unusual to see them go for $1000 and up. The exception are the "Crap-O-Phones" which are cheap outside horn counterfeits made in Pakistan and India, and now in China. Ebay is flooded with these and they are simply bottom-end portable mechanisms in cheap cabinets with outside horns. They almost always have the "His Master's Voice" trade name and decal on them, which is the Victor European trade name. That's a bummer because it's a legitimite trade name and there are authentic HMV items out there. I'm seeing a flood of Chinese counterfeits on ebay now, almost all with silk screened counterfeit Victor name plates. Victor nameplates are NEVER silkscreened, they are always etched. If you see a flat one that is screen printed, you are looking at a fake.

BTW, a Victrola always has a horn inside the cabinet, and the older Victor Talking Machine will have an outside horn. The Victrola name was created for the inside horn models, which was quite revolutionary at the time.

[Def Leper]

Michael, thanks for posting all those pictures, that's a great phonograph. That cabinet style is one Edisons I don't see very often, probably because it was one of Edison's least expensive models and the public seemed to prefer the models with larger cabinets. One spotting feature when trying to determine a model's original place in the lineup is the number of spring motors, and the A-100 had a single motor, indicating a basic model. The result is a phonograph that has a shorter playing time than two or three motor models.

There is an accessory record rack that was available to sit on the lower shelf to hold about 20 records upright, and it would also fit inside the larger cabinets.

The Edison players had good mechanisms and I especially like the tonearm lifters which were standard fare on the edisons. The edisons also had one of the best muting/volume control systems on the market.

Your player does have the interchangible reproducers and some models have a tray and strap on one side of the horn to hold the reproducer not in use. Shame that your Victor-style arm is broken but they come up on ebay fairly often. If you do an internet search on Edison diamond disc you might even find a supplier with a reproduction part.

It's great that your grille is intact because they are fairly delicate and tend to break. There are several vintage radio rebuilding sites that have the sheer silk-like grille cloth that you can use restore your grille if you like. Edison used a red fabric on most grilles.

I would estimate your player is worth between $150 and $200 as is, and a bit more with the reproducer replaced and a little finish reconditioning and a new grille cloth. Sentimental value, of course, is priceless.

As a coincidence, I visited the Edison museum in Port Huron, Michigan yesterday. That's where Tom Edison lived as a boy and was taugh telegraphy by the train station master as a reward for pulling the station master's child out of the path of a train. Sorry for the lack of snap in the picture but it was dead dull overcast. The train station is in the background to the left and the international bridge to Canada is in the background. That's the St. Clair river to the right and Lake Huron behind.

[colterphoto1]

We must have been typing at the same time. I found an oak unit similar to mine for sale at $1150. Also saw the A250's with solid cabinet and record storage racks. I had always assumed that Grandpa had built the little shelf on there (he tended to 'customize' stuff- you can do that when you're 86) but find that it was original. Luckily the wood in mine is in fine shape, just a little chipping on bottom edges of cabinet from delamination of the veneer. Mechanically it is very clean and works beautifully.

I found a place in Ohio with reproducers and that rebuilds these still. I think I will have my Edison reproducer rebuilt and the diamond checked/replaced.

Now I'll be in search of a photo of the A100 grill material and then trying to locate a source for a replacement.

You did say it best though. Referring back to my original post on this thread, This is Priceless to me for the memories it represents and that it denotes my introduction to recorded music, a favorite hobby today obviously.

Thanks Def,

Michael

[Def Leper]

Hi Michael,

Glad you found the rebuilder. There are quite a few people doing reconditioning work and it's pretty easy to get a player rebuilt. On reproducers, the important thing is making sure the rubber gasket that seals the diaphragm is soft and working. They tend to harden up with time and it hurts the sound reproduction.

Most users can do a lot to help the motors without going to a rebuilder. Most common problem is the grease in the spring motors hardening up, which makes the springs catch and then slip, making a thumping sound. The other problem is dirty, hardened grease covering the gears bearings. This stuff traps dirt and makes very effective sandpaper, which prematurely wears out gears. Pulling off the motor assembly and cleaning off old grease with naptha really helps. I lubricate with a very light coating of moly grease on the gears and a light machine oil on the bearings. I don't recommend opening and cleaning the spring motors unless you know what to expect-- a spring uncoiling can injure you and even take out an eye.

There's an excellent book on phonograph rebuilding called "The Compleat Talking Machine" by Eric L. Reiss, ISBN 0-911572-55-4. It has information on rebuilding just about any kind of hand-cranked phonograph and cylinder machine and is a great education in how these devices work.

Here's a shot of my main phonograph, which is a higher-end Brunswick. It's noticably large compared to the typical cabinet phonograph, and has really nice hand-picked tiger oak and quite a bit of carving. It plays extremely well and has a very large, double spring motor that will pay six or more sides without rewinding. I paid $450 for this one at an antique mall which is a fair price. It might bring more from a knowledgable collector, but generally the cabinet styles are harder to sell at a good price because they are not very practical to ship and thus not good auction site items.

[colterphoto1]

WOW that's beautiful man! I'll take a look see at the gears etc and see how grimy they are. Fixing or replacing the Victrola Reproducer isn't a top priority, looks like it would cost as much as the entire Edison!

I don't know where to find this rubber gasket on my Edison Reproducer, it appears to be strictly mechanical. Maybe that's only on the one with the metal pin stylus and the large vertical 'disc' which appears to be the beginning of the sound 'chamber'.

Will look into further web sites and the book you mentioned. Thanks for the help.

I don't think mine would improve from any cabinet refinishing. I might take Murphey's oil soap and some Old English to brighten it up a bit, the old patina kind of looks neat with the lightly checked varnish. I'd probably much it up trying to much with it. Besides the sideboard veneer is very brittle.

Michael

[customsteve01]

Well while I am sitting in the airport waiting for my plane (its late)[] I thought I would check to see if there were any post to my thread.

Wow, Def it sounds like you know a thing or two about these reproducers. Your Brunswick is really pretty the Edison I saw wasn't anything as nice as that.

Fini,

I had to laugh at your wanting a picture of my scooter with the Edison strapped to it. That would have been a sight. I didn't buy it I just found it in the store and was wondering if it was a good deal. If it is a good deal I am thinking about going back in the truck and getting it.

They are asking $140.00 for it but the lady said they could come down on the price. I did not see a crank but there was something wrapped in paper in the bottom storage box. It is the closed in design and the grill cloth is missing but the grill was there from what I recall. It looked alot like the one that is in the museum at Hope. That one doesn't have any grill cloth either. One thing that did consern me was it was pretty dirty around the turn table but it did just wipe away. The tone arm piece where it attached to the horn was stuck and did not rotate to connect to the horn. the horn did move freely tho. The volume control worked also as wall as the lever that raised and lowered the tone arm. They also had about a dozen or so of the records in a different part of the store but they were not all the same brand, from what I remember there were three different brands, Edison, Victor and I can't remember the other one. From what Def is saying they all might not be compatable with this player?

Def,

Does this sound like a desent deal? I know my description isn't the greatest. I wish we would have had the camerra with us. Is there anything else I could ask the seller (I do have their number and her name) or what else should I look for if I run out their next week? Also I wrote that the model number was G-150 do you think that I just mistakenly saw a G insteadof a C. Did they make a G-150?

It just seems like this would be a neet piece of history to own.

Steve

[Def Leper]

Steve, the phonograph sounds like it might be good one for parts, but not in playing condition. The tonearms were often made from pot metal or aluminum castings and it's very important that the tonearm pivots freely both side to side and up and down. When one is jammed at a joint, that's a good indication that it is made of pot metal which has swollen. This is hard to correct without breaking the arm or joint. If the tone arm doesn't move freely at the joints, it can't track a record successfully and may actually damage the records. Michael's Edison has a broken tonearm tube on the Victor-style reproducer that illustrates how delicate the old metal castings become.

I think you probably misread the model number and it is a C-150, which is a fairly common edison model. They can pull up to $400-$500 in extremely good playing condition, but this one doesn't sound like it is usable for anything but parts or a full restoration job. Below is a picture of a C-150 "Sheraton" cabinet in prime playing condition. This one has what looks like an original grille cloth and you can see they don't hold up well.

[customsteve01]

Def,

The red circle in the picture is what I was talking about that wouldn't move. It looks like the collar that should rotate to secure the tone arm to the horn. The arm moved up and down and side to side with ease.

[colterphoto1]

That's how you change the reproducers. So unless you have a second one (in storage in the horn cavity) or inted to get the other one for Victrola /Edison records, it's probably no big deal. I bet it'd loosen with a little work, wiggling, perhaps wd40, gentle use of channellocks.

Check the reproducer type and put a record of the appropriate type from the store on. I'll bet it works fine. For not much money you'll have a neat little conversation piece.

I actually use mine very rarely. Now I'm going to make an effort to clean/lube it up and have the diamond checked out before I play anything else.

Do buy whatever records you can. They're not terribly rare, but for the price, its fun to have a few.

Michael