Ultra II Subs

[Tobby]

Sent you an email.

Tom

[DrWho]

replied

[TheEAR]

I don't think it is that I am not happy but rather I am wondering if I could take it too another level that would have me thinking "wow, this is it". This room is bass challenged due to high ceilings and being wide open on two sides to the entry, kitchen, and dinning room. I know this is not the kind of room where you install home theater but it is where the family congregates. I also have a reference system I am probably going to set up in a smaller room (14x17) because I have a teenager with a lot of teenage friends. I could move the Revel in there if I opted to go the ultras in the big room or I could keep the Revel in the big room and get a smaller sub like a siesimic 12, RSW 12, SVS or etc. for the smaller room. It is a lot of decision for someone new to all this and that's why I am looking for advise from experts like you.

Tom

Knowing this,I would try at least a pair of Klipsch THX subs,if not more.As even two very capable 12" direct radiating woofers in a larger space can hardly produce what I would ever call satisfactory sub bass.

I use several potent subs in a 10*14 room with what is a 6ft celling(room cut in half at mid height with a platfor supporting a heavy duty mezanine overhead. And even then a few 10,12 and 15" subs do it to my liking.

In large rooms,very large ones I would even go as far as to point you towards Dantley sub(active version).First I would try dual THX subs,at home.Do not let these subs impress you in a much smaller,bass forgiving room.Test at home,always.

Also an IB design would also be another consideration using two 18" very long throw woofers.this would bring you true subsonic bliss and cost less than the twin THX/amp combo.Here some work needs to be done.

Try a set of THX subs first.Who knows,it may be your answer.

[RichardP]

For what it's worth, there is a THX sub system (2 subs, amp) being sold on Audiogon right now, a little used dealer demo, for $2500, by a seller with lots of positive feedback. Located in Tampa, FL. It might be worth a road trip, or a couple hundred in shipping. What are they new, $4K?

[Tobby]

Thanks to all for the information and advise. Some very knowlegable and helpfull people on this forum. After thinking about this for a few days I am leaning toward taking Kramskoi's advise and concentrating on the smaller room. I have gone back and read older threads on subs and came across some of TheEar's comments on the Revel b 15. TheEar likes my sub and I have got to feel good about that. It is probably doing a pretty good job considering the large einvironment it is in. I could throw a ton of $s at that 10,000 cubic ft (or more?)to get great bass and that is not practical for me at this time. So, I have been looking at subs for the 14x17x9 ft room and my reference speakers. I am leaning toward these subs.

Velodyne HGSx 15

Velodyne SPL 1500

Sunfire Signature (I like the size of this one but size is not make or break)

SVS PB12 -plus/2

At a good price I (like a klipsher that is upgrading and selling a gem) I would also consider the RSW 15

Assuming they can be bought for about the same money what would you pick and why.

Tom

[TheEAR]

The Revel B15 is a great subwoofer,capable of solid deep bas soutput and is very "musical" not adding boom or other unwanted audible colorations.

Buying dual Klipch THX subs will mostly add very deep bass output.As the B15 is a monster down to 30hz and quite potent down to 20hz.

Question is,are you satisfied...fully satisfied with its deep bass output in your room? If YES no upgrade needed,if no try a pair of Klipsch THX subs.

Arthur

Let me try to answer that. I needed to set the Revel sub to +12db and the ultra mains to -7db on my receiver to make the explosion of the Keep wall in LOTR sound the way I thought it should. To really rumble. Is this because of the high efficiency of the ultras? Still, I don't know if I am getting that feel it in the chest impact so many reviewers talk about. I do feel some vibration in my chair. Another thing I need to know is how do you know when you are driving a sub to hard. Should that be a concern? I don't think I am near that yet but how do you know?

Tom

Not good.The B15 is not enough sub for your needs.My mains are at 0dB,center at -3dB,sourrounds at -4dB and subs at -12dB and not even half way on the units! And the bass is simply THERE when called upon.

You need to try two THX subs,these will best the B15 by a solid 10-12dB down deep.If this is still not to your liking,you know TC Sounds has a super sub composed of two cabinets and two Crown amps capable of filling all rooms except stadiums($7000).

I would get a much more capable subwoofer(s).Start by giving the Klipsch THX a spin in your house.

[Tobby]

The Revel B15 is a great subwoofer,capable of solid deep bas soutput and is very "musical" not adding boom or other unwanted audible colorations.

Buying dual Klipch THX subs will mostly add very deep bass output.As the B15 is a monster down to 30hz and quite potent down to 20hz.

Question is,are you satisfied...fully satisfied with its deep bass output in your room? If YES no upgrade needed,if no try a pair of Klipsch THX subs.

Arthur

Let me try to answer that. I needed to set the Revel sub to +12db and the ultra mains to -7db on my receiver to make the explosion of the Keep wall in LOTR sound the way I thought it should. To really rumble. Is this because of the high efficiency of the ultras? Still, I don't know if I am getting that feel it in the chest impact so many reviewers talk about. I do feel some vibration in my chair. Another thing I need to know is how do you know when you are driving a sub to hard. Should that be a concern? I don't think I am near that yet but how do you know?

Tom

Not good.The B15 is not enough sub for your needs.My mains are at 0dB,center at -3dB,sourrounds at -4dB and subs at -12dB and not even half way on the units! And the bass is simply THERE when called upon.

You need to try two THX subs,these will best the B15 by a solid 10-12dB down deep.If this is still not to your liking,you know TC Sounds has a super sub composed of two cabinets and two Crown amps capable of filling all rooms except stadiums($7000).

I would get a much more capable subwoofer(s).Start by giving the Klipsch THX a spin in your house.

I would love to. It is only the $$$ stopping me. THX's two subs and amp don't come cheap. I would have to win the lottery to go the TC Sounds & Crown route. In my most recent post I was just saying that for the time being I could acheive better results in the smaller room without breaking the bank. It could be the place to go for movies and serious music listening and the great room fo regular tv, sports, chick flicks and etc. On the other hand it does seem a waste to under use those thx fronts center and surrounds that way. They deserve better. A solid 10-12 db down deep huh. Will that be enough? I guess it is obvious I am undecided what to do really.

[TheEAR]

Tobby,

When you get thye chance,and have time.The only sure way is to have the subs at home and test them.No audio store listening room will tell you if they will satisfy the subsonic craving.

Someting tells me that yes.As they are capable of quite extreme output,and unless you live in a subsonic black hole your house cannot eat the bass. []

[DrWho]

In my most recent post I was just saying that for the time being I could acheive better results in the smaller room without breaking the bank. It could be the place to go for movies and serious music listening and the great room fo regular tv, sports, chick flicks and etc. On the other hand it does seem a waste to under use those thx fronts center and surrounds that way. They deserve better. A solid 10-12 db down deep huh. Will that be enough? I guess it is obvious I am undecided what to do really.

Sorry for getting back to you so slow - gotta love college. I did get your pics.

Based on the aesthetics of your big room and your option of the smaller room, I would agree with your sentiments of putting the more serious listening into the smaller room - especially if you can make it a dedicated room with acoustical treatment.

Did you mention that you're using reference in the smaller room?

What I would suggest is moving the THX speakers into the small room and then getting yourself a pair of large furniture grade speakers to do 2-channel duty in your large room - using it like you describe as a more informal setting. It might be a stretch, but something like the Cornwall 3 would work very well (and should be rather suprising in the bass department). If you absolutely must go smaller then you could drop down to the new Heresy 3. If you decide to hit the used market, all the cornwalls sound great, but I wouldn't recommend the H1 or H2 unless you were willing to do a few mods. The voicing of the original Heresy speakers isn't optimal for the huge room you have.

Going the custom route is another altenative you should consider. You've got some hidden space off to the left a bit where you could fit a decent sized enclosure to house a driver or two capable of achieving the displacement you need without breaking the bank. I won't bother recommending any ideas unless you feel this is a worthwhile alternative, but I'd anticipate achieving extension below 20Hz at levels above 120dB for under $2500. It doesn't sound like building the enclosure will be an issue for you either (didn't you mention that you built the custom entertainment center?)

[kramskoi]

The Revel B15 is a great subwoofer,capable of solid deep bas soutput and is very "musical" not adding boom or other unwanted audible colorations.

Buying dual Klipch THX subs will mostly add very deep bass output.As the B15 is a monster down to 30hz and quite potent down to 20hz.

Question is,are you satisfied...fully satisfied with its deep bass output in your room? If YES no upgrade needed,if no try a pair of Klipsch THX subs.

Arthur

Let me try to answer that. I needed to set the Revel sub to +12db and the ultra mains to -7db on my receiver to make the explosion of the Keep wall in LOTR sound the way I thought it should. To really rumble. Is this because of the high efficiency of the ultras? Still, I don't know if I am getting that feel it in the chest impact so many reviewers talk about. I do feel some vibration in my chair. Another thing I need to know is how do you know when you are driving a sub to hard. Should that be a concern? I don't think I am near that yet but how do you know?

Tom

Not good.The B15 is not enough sub for your needs.My mains are at 0dB,center at -3dB,sourrounds at -4dB and subs at -12dB and not even half way on the units! And the bass is simply THERE when called upon.

You need to try two THX subs,these will best the B15 by a solid 10-12dB down deep.If this is still not to your liking,you know TC Sounds has a super sub composed of two cabinets and two Crown amps capable of filling all rooms except stadiums($7000).

I would get a much more capable subwoofer(s).Start by giving the Klipsch THX a spin in your house.

I would love to. It is only the $$$ stopping me. THX's two subs and amp don't come cheap. I would have to win the lottery to go the TC Sounds & Crown route. In my most recent post I was just saying that for the time being I could acheive better results in the smaller room without breaking the bank. It could be the place to go for movies and serious music listening and the great room fo regular tv, sports, chick flicks and etc. On the other hand it does seem a waste to under use those thx fronts center and surrounds that way. They deserve better. A solid 10-12 db down deep huh. Will that be enough? I guess it is obvious I am undecided what to do really.

with the THX pair you're going to get a fair amount of output but you won't get the extension that really brings out DVD's like WOTW...with more selections encoding infrasonics, you need not only massive output but excellent extension also...the THX pair is probably tuned too high for this, and the 4th order roll off won't help either...

a nice high-end 2x15 (or 2 units) sealed that is allowed to rolloff at 6 dB/ octave "and" keep massive midbass output is the ticket here...you should strive to couple the sub to the room and maximize extension...if you think below 16 Hz does'nt matter i can email you spectrals of various movie clips to prove otherwise...i guarantee you that a tc-3000/lms-5400 based dual 15" like the one i built would impress in that small room...with a Qtc. of .450...the attack is violent and the decay rapid...almost an infinite baffle sound signature and in a 6 cu. ft. enclosure, which is quite a small footprint for a 2x15" subwoofer...the lightning,pods and especially the laser scene in WOTW produces absolutely visceral impact and NO FLAB...i sincerely doubt that you could get 105 dB @ 12 Hz (5% 3rdHD) at 3.5 meters from a pair of THX 12" subs...

The problem with the vented subs is the 4th order rolloff, with it's consequent group delay and unloading issues...if a high pass is used, this become much worse (5th or 6th order in some cases)...rapid rolloff, increased impulse response, ringing...i.e. transient response...you have to protect the driver (from unloading) below the tuning point, so this is mandatory for commercial vented subs...

The problem with sealed is worse...you won't find too many sealed subs without a high pass filter installed...for instance the Pardigm servo15 rolls of at 20 dB octave because of it's filtering and has nothing to offer as far as true infrasonic output...don't make the mistake of equating output with extension...two different animals entirely.

[RichardP]

...What I would suggest is moving the THX speakers into the small room and then getting yourself a pair of large furniture grade speakers to do 2-channel duty in your large room - using it like you describe as a more informal setting. It might be a stretch, but something like the Cornwall 3 would work very well (and should be rather suprising in the bass department)...

Tobby, if you go that route, keep me in mind. I have Cornwall's for sale and within easy driving distance:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/789973.aspx

[Raider]

The Revel B15 is a great subwoofer,capable of solid deep bas soutput and is very "musical" not adding boom or other unwanted audible colorations. 

Buying dual Klipch THX subs will mostly add very deep bass output.As the B15 is a monster down to 30hz and quite potent down to 20hz.

Question is,are you satisfied...fully satisfied with its deep bass output in your room? If YES no upgrade needed,if no try a pair of Klipsch THX subs.

Arthur

Let me try to answer that. I needed to set the Revel sub to +12db and the ultra mains to -7db on my receiver to make the explosion of the Keep wall in LOTR sound the way I thought it should. To really rumble. Is this because of the high efficiency of the ultras? Still, I don't know if I am getting that feel it in the chest impact so many reviewers talk about. I do feel some vibration in my chair. Another thing I need to know is how do you know when you are driving a sub to hard. Should that be a concern? I don't think I am near that yet but how do you know?

Tom

Not good.The B15 is not enough sub for your needs.My mains are at 0dB,center at -3dB,sourrounds at -4dB and subs at -12dB and not even half way on the units! And the bass is simply THERE when called upon.

You need to try two THX subs,these will best the B15 by a solid 10-12dB down deep.If this is still not to your liking,you know TC Sounds has a super sub composed of two cabinets and two Crown amps capable of filling all rooms except stadiums($7000).

I would get a much more capable subwoofer(s).Start by giving the Klipsch THX a spin in your house.

I would love to. It is only the $$$ stopping me. THX's two subs and amp don't come cheap. I would have to win the lottery to go the TC Sounds & Crown route.  In my most recent post I was just saying that for the time being I could acheive better results in the smaller room without breaking the bank. It could be the place to go for movies and serious music listening and the great room fo regular tv, sports, chick flicks and etc. On the other hand it does seem a waste to under use those thx fronts center and surrounds that way. They deserve better. A solid 10-12 db down deep huh. Will that be enough? I guess it is obvious I am undecided what to do really.

 

with the THX pair you're going to get a fair amount of output but you won't get the extension that really brings out DVD's like WOTW...with more selections encoding infrasonics, you need not only massive output but excellent extension also...the THX pair is probably tuned too high for this, and the 4th order roll off won't help either...

a nice high-end 2x15 (or 2 units) sealed that is allowed to rolloff at 6 dB/ octave "and" keep massive midbass output is the ticket here...you should strive to couple the sub to the room and maximize extension...if you think below 16 Hz does'nt matter i can email you spectrals of various movie clips to prove otherwise...i guarantee you that a tc-3000/lms-5400 based dual 15" like the one i built would impress in that small room...with a Qtc. of .450...the attack is violent and the decay rapid...almost an infinite baffle sound signature and in a 6 cu. ft. enclosure, which is quite a small footprint for a 2x15" subwoofer...the lightning,pods and especially the laser scene in WOTW produces absolutely visceral impact and NO FLAB...i sincerely doubt that you could get 105 dB @ 12 Hz (5% 3rdHD) at 3.5 meters from a pair of THX 12" subs...

The problem with the vented subs is the 4th order rolloff, with it's consequent group delay and unloading issues...if a high pass is used, this become much worse (5th or 6th order in some cases)...rapid rolloff, increased impulse response, ringing...i.e. transient response...you have to protect the driver (from unloading) below the tuning point, so this is mandatory for commercial vented subs...

The problem with sealed is worse...you won't find too many sealed subs without a high pass filter installed...for instance the Pardigm servo15 rolls of at 20 dB octave because of it's filtering and has nothing to offer as far as true infrasonic output...don't make the mistake of equating output with extension...two different animals entirely.

 

kramskoi:

What TC set up are you using? Which drivers, amp, enclosure size and porting?

Thanks

[kramskoi]

The Revel B15 is a great subwoofer,capable of solid deep bas soutput and is very "musical" not adding boom or other unwanted audible colorations.

Buying dual Klipch THX subs will mostly add very deep bass output.As the B15 is a monster down to 30hz and quite potent down to 20hz.

Question is,are you satisfied...fully satisfied with its deep bass output in your room? If YES no upgrade needed,if no try a pair of Klipsch THX subs.

Arthur

Let me try to answer that. I needed to set the Revel sub to +12db and the ultra mains to -7db on my receiver to make the explosion of the Keep wall in LOTR sound the way I thought it should. To really rumble. Is this because of the high efficiency of the ultras? Still, I don't know if I am getting that feel it in the chest impact so many reviewers talk about. I do feel some vibration in my chair. Another thing I need to know is how do you know when you are driving a sub to hard. Should that be a concern? I don't think I am near that yet but how do you know?

Tom

Not good.The B15 is not enough sub for your needs.My mains are at 0dB,center at -3dB,sourrounds at -4dB and subs at -12dB and not even half way on the units! And the bass is simply THERE when called upon.

You need to try two THX subs,these will best the B15 by a solid 10-12dB down deep.If this is still not to your liking,you know TC Sounds has a super sub composed of two cabinets and two Crown amps capable of filling all rooms except stadiums($7000).

I would get a much more capable subwoofer(s).Start by giving the Klipsch THX a spin in your house.

I would love to. It is only the $$$ stopping me. THX's two subs and amp don't come cheap. I would have to win the lottery to go the TC Sounds & Crown route. In my most recent post I was just saying that for the time being I could acheive better results in the smaller room without breaking the bank. It could be the place to go for movies and serious music listening and the great room fo regular tv, sports, chick flicks and etc. On the other hand it does seem a waste to under use those thx fronts center and surrounds that way. They deserve better. A solid 10-12 db down deep huh. Will that be enough? I guess it is obvious I am undecided what to do really.

with the THX pair you're going to get a fair amount of output but you won't get the extension that really brings out DVD's like WOTW...with more selections encoding infrasonics, you need not only massive output but excellent extension also...the THX pair is probably tuned too high for this, and the 4th order roll off won't help either...

a nice high-end 2x15 (or 2 units) sealed that is allowed to rolloff at 6 dB/ octave "and" keep massive midbass output is the ticket here...you should strive to couple the sub to the room and maximize extension...if you think below 16 Hz does'nt matter i can email you spectrals of various movie clips to prove otherwise...i guarantee you that a tc-3000/lms-5400 based dual 15" like the one i built would impress in that small room...with a Qtc. of .450...the attack is violent and the decay rapid...almost an infinite baffle sound signature and in a 6 cu. ft. enclosure, which is quite a small footprint for a 2x15" subwoofer...the lightning,pods and especially the laser scene in WOTW produces absolutely visceral impact and NO FLAB...i sincerely doubt that you could get 105 dB @ 12 Hz (5% 3rdHD) at 3.5 meters from a pair of THX 12" subs...

The problem with the vented subs is the 4th order rolloff, with it's consequent group delay and unloading issues...if a high pass is used, this become much worse (5th or 6th order in some cases)...rapid rolloff, increased impulse response, ringing...i.e. transient response...you have to protect the driver (from unloading) below the tuning point, so this is mandatory for commercial vented subs...

The problem with sealed is worse...you won't find too many sealed subs without a high pass filter installed...for instance the Pardigm servo15 rolls of at 20 dB octave because of it's filtering and has nothing to offer as far as true infrasonic output...don't make the mistake of equating output with extension...two different animals entirely.

kramskoi: What TC set up are you using? Which drivers, amp, enclosure size and porting? Thanks

i have all the sub details here:

http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=273

[Raider]

kramskoi:

I have saw post on TCSounds forum, but didn't realize it was you.

Coupla questions.

Is the enclosure CNC cut?

Would two enclosures at half the volume perform as well. Two 100 lb. enclosures might be a little more manageable.

Raider

[DrWho]

In theory world, the two would be identical.

In practice, cross-firing drivers eliminates a lot of distortions and cabinet vibration (the mechanical motions cancel each other outt. You can even remove a second set by inverting one of the drivers - making the magnet stick out of the box instead of into the box). Anyways, this means you'll have to brace the two smaller cabinets a bit more (making them heavier). You could help alleviate this by going with passive radiators (cross-firing like the RSW series), but then you've got extra costs and it'll be harder to match the room gain to the sub (max SPL for the same distortion should go up though). You'll also have less output way down low (like below 10-15Hz depending on the tuning).

The best thing to do is get yourself WinISD so you can see how the tradeoffs play out.

And for what it's worth, I think a lot of people don't give the Ultra2 subs enough credit for their performance in large spaces. I can think of a couple venues in Indy where they are being used as subwoofers for the PA / dance music type stuff. Heck, plug the drivers into the wall socket and enjoy 60Hz at 130dB. I'm not sure if it was this thread or another thread that I mentioned it, but the Ultra2 subs should be able to do 124dB at 30Hz with an F3 of 25Hz, measured outside. It's only going to get better when you move into a room - even if the room is huge. Those are some pretty impressive numbers...I'm not trying to say theren't aren't better subs, but I don't get the concerns about the output and extension.

[TheEAR]

Opposing woofers configuration is THE best way to eliminate vibration.Be it light or heavy cabinets.As the forces of each driver cancel eachother(vibration here).

DrWho,

Nobody worries about the dual Klipsch THX subs not be capable,and yes 25hz up they are monsters of output.It is at 20Hz and below they start to fall very sharply and our good resident Russian chess player here was pointing this possibility.

You can bet,I will get a set of these THX subs and pit them against the ANADA set(what a strange name,they forgot the C...ANADA [] ). With ear protection of course.I want to see output @ 16Hz this is where the real big boys are separated from the good subs.

[Tobby]

Ok. This is interesting stuff but there is another possibility I would like to explore. I knew someone who had a Definitive Trinity sub for sale but I was a little late and it is gone. I have located another. An 18" footprint 34" tall with 2000w, two 14" drivers and four !4" radiators. Literature says 128 db at 20hrtz and 116 db at 16hrtz. What do you think? Kramoski your sub looks awesome but I have niether the time nor talent to build my own sub.

Tom

[kramskoi]

kramskoi: I have saw post on TCSounds forum, but didn't realize it was you. Coupla questions. Is the enclosure CNC cut? Would two enclosures at half the volume perform as well. Two 100 lb. enclosures might be a little more manageable. Raider

no CNC, but the enclosure was built by a local high-end audio store...for about $385...i wanted this thing to be indestructible and dead silent...and that it is...they also built me a 3.3 cu. ft. cabinet with 3" baffle 1.25" walls and 4 internal braces...this weighs in at around 125-150 lbs. with the driver added...they just built them, the designs on both were mine...cabinet flex, resonance, vibration, etc. etc....nil!

[TheEAR]

Definitive Tech. always add BS "specs" and boosts performance on paper.No way in hell their Trinity or Vanity sub does 116dB @ 16Hz.Probably corner loaded and measures 1/8 space(on a peak).

I've tried their older reference unit,the one using the 18" woofer and while it claimed 12Hz extension,at 16Hz it was so weak it was not funny. They should give some linearity indications like 80-16Hz -+1dB not claim amazing extension with no linearity figures.

Their UBBER towers get great reviews in mags where they advertise so much you may at first thing it is a Definitive brochure! LOL

[kramskoi]

Ok. This is interesting stuff but there is another possibility I would like to explore. I knew someone who had a Definitive Trinity sub for sale but I was a little late and it is gone. I have located another. An 18" footprint 34" tall with 2000w, two 14" drivers and four !4" radiators. Literature says 128 db at 20hrtz and 116 db at 16hrtz. What do you think? Kramoski your sub looks awesome but I have niether the time nor talent to build my own sub.

Tom

the enclosure was designed by me, but built by someone else...

I'll say this about the Trinity Signature...it looks extremely formidable but there is no objective tested data that i could find online...some mfg. claims are a little on the optimistic sides...i'm sure it has stupendous output, given 2 drivers and 4 radiators, i have to wonder what the consequent group delay and rolloff would be and how good it would sound with music selections...just looking at the claims, falling 12 dB between 20 and 16 Hz denotes a "very" steep attenuation of VLF response...at this falloff rate, your midbass would have to be very high to realize this below 20 Hz output...i don't think that this subwoofer would couple well to a room at all, even smaller rooms...just my opinion...objective testing of FR, compression, output at varying distances, impulse response analysis, etc. would go a long way toward revealing a "true" picture of performance...

i don't wish to be a cynical skeptic, just that i like to see tested numbers on subs...subjective opinions are just that...subjective opinions...