Ultra II Subs

[Tobby]

I have a Ultra II 5.1 system with three KL 650s and etc. I do not have the ultra subs. I am currently using a Revel B 15 a. Would it be worth the $$ to add the amp and two ultra subs? Would it make a big difference in how the system sounds with music and movies? Is there something about these pieces that work particularly well with each other? I think the Revel is a very good sub I just don't know if it is the right sub. I need some expert advise here.

Tom

[TheEAR]

The Revel B15 is a great subwoofer,capable of solid deep bas soutput and is very "musical" not adding boom or other unwanted audible colorations.

Buying dual Klipch THX subs will mostly add very deep bass output.As the B15 is a monster down to 30hz and quite potent down to 20hz.

Question is,are you satisfied...fully satisfied with its deep bass output in your room? If YES no upgrade needed,if no try a pair of Klipsch THX subs.

[DrWho]

I have a feeling the Ultra2's would walk all over the Revel B15 in terms of sheer output. The KW-120's are also a perfect timbre match to the rest of the Ultra2 lineup.

I also find that having two subs in a stereo configuration sounds infinetly better than a single mono subwoofer. I don't get the point of talking nuance when it's coming from one half of the room.

Though they don't go as loud, a pair of RT-12d subs might be an interesting alternative as well. The ARC is supposed to be all the rave, but I like them because of the passive radiators (no port compression).

[Tobby]

I don't think it is that I am not happy but rather I am wondering if I could take it too another level that would have me thinking "wow, this is it". This room is bass challenged due to high ceilings and being wide open on two sides to the entry, kitchen, and dinning room. I know this is not the kind of room where you install home theater but it is where the family congregates. I also have a reference system I am probably going to set up in a smaller room (14x17) because I have a teenager with a lot of teenage friends. I could move the Revel in there if I opted to go the ultras in the big room or I could keep the Revel in the big room and get a smaller sub like a siesimic 12, RSW 12, SVS or etc. for the smaller room. It is a lot of decision for someone new to all this and that's why I am looking for advise from experts like you.

Tom

[Tobby]

I have a feeling the Ultra2's would walk all over the Revel B15 in terms of sheer output. The KW-120's are also a perfect timbre match to the rest of the Ultra2 lineup.

I also find that having two subs in a stereo configuration sounds infinetly better than a single mono subwoofer. I don't get the point of talking nuance when it's coming from one half of the room.

Though they don't go as loud, a pair of RT-12d subs might be an interesting alternative as well. The ARC is supposed to be all the rave, but I like them because of the passive radiators (no port compression).

These subs will be semi built in so I need to stick with non ported or front ported subs. Aren't the ultras supposed to be installed side by side? That would work best with my scheme or layout.

[tidmack]

Tom,

I'm not sure where you're from, but you're welcome to hear my dual 120's any time. I have them matched with LaScalas, so not quite the same sound as the THX line, but you'll get an idea of the insane output from these subs. I'm just south of Milwaukee, WI.

Jeff

[Tobby]

Tom,

I'm not sure where you're from, but you're welcome to hear my dual 120's any time. I have them matched with LaScalas, so not quite the same sound as the THX line, but you'll get an idea of the insane output from these subs. I'm just south of Milwaukee, WI.

Jeff

Jeff

I'm southeast of Dallas Texas and that is a tad more than a Sunday afternnoon drive but I do really appreciate the offer. This quest started out with me just wanting to buy my first hdtv. I made the mistake of going to listen to rmlowz's reference speakers. I now have two sets of Klipsch 5.1 speaker systems (without subs) and still no tv. It might be a mistake for me to hear your LaScalas. I have never heard those speakers and will probably be much better of, financially, if I never do. LOL. Thanks for your input on the subs.

Tom

[colterphoto1]

Tom,

I'm not sure where you're from, but you're welcome to hear my dual 120's any time. I have them matched with LaScalas, so not quite the same sound as the THX line, but you'll get an idea of the insane output from these subs. I'm just south of Milwaukee, WI.

Jeff

INSANE!

yup, that's the word I and Doc use for my THX subs. I am also using LS for mains currently and it's a match made in heaven!

I have them stacked with a stone wall behind them, just to the side of my TV and center channel. They are about 10' from me and you can FEEL THE BREEZE! I'm serious, during some DVD concerts the bass BLOWS MY HAIR BACK!

There is considerable gain accomplished by stacking or placing the subs side by side, in the neighborhood of 4-5 db. Just incredible

I don't know anything about your current sub, but give the THX an audition if you get the chance.

Michael

[Tobby]

INSANE!

yup, that's the word I and Doc use for my THX subs. I am also using LS for mains currently and it's a match made in heaven!

I have them stacked with a stone wall behind them, just to the side of my TV and center channel. They are about 10' from me and you can FEEL THE BREEZE! I'm serious, during some DVD concerts the bass BLOWS MY HAIR BACK!

There is considerable gain accomplished by stacking or placing the subs side by side, in the neighborhood of 4-5 db. Just incredible

I don't know anything about your current sub, but give the THX an audition if you get the chance.

Michael

Good to hear you have them close to your tv because that is one of my concerns. I pan to put them side by side on the floor under the tv. The tv will be in cabinet that sort of straddles but does not touch the subs. I was concerned that all that thump and etc. might intefere with the pictue.

I wish I could audition them but there is not a Klipsch retail dealer in the DFW area to my knowledge and if there was it would not be the same as listening to them in the cavenous space I intend to place them. I am actually considering a new pair an individual has for sale so it will be a blind plunge if I do it. You guys are kind of pumping me up to spend some more. Thanks for the help.

Tom

[Tobby]

The Revel B15 is a great subwoofer,capable of solid deep bas soutput and is very "musical" not adding boom or other unwanted audible colorations.

Buying dual Klipch THX subs will mostly add very deep bass output.As the B15 is a monster down to 30hz and quite potent down to 20hz.

Question is,are you satisfied...fully satisfied with its deep bass output in your room? If YES no upgrade needed,if no try a pair of Klipsch THX subs.

Arthur

Let me try to answer that. I needed to set the Revel sub to +12db and the ultra mains to -7db on my receiver to make the explosion of the Keep wall in LOTR sound the way I thought it should. To really rumble. Is this because of the high efficiency of the ultras? Still, I don't know if I am getting that feel it in the chest impact so many reviewers talk about. I do feel some vibration in my chair. Another thing I need to know is how do you know when you are driving a sub to hard. Should that be a concern? I don't think I am near that yet but how do you know?

Tom

[colterphoto1]

My 36" TV is on a cabinet in a little alcove next to the stone hearth. The THX subs sit right in front of the hearth. So not only are they on the ends of separate joists, but have a ton of stone next to them.

At loud volumes, my picture has vibrated. You might have problems with your setup. What is the floor system at that location?

M

[colterphoto1]

http://www.klipsch.com/find-a-dealer/Default.aspx

here's what I do to find dealers:

Google name of city _ zip, it will return a directory of all zip codes for that area.

Go to the Klipsch dealer locater page (from the main menu), highlight the product line you are seeking, key in your zip code or one of the ones from your city, BINGO- Klipsch dealers galore.

Note- for some reason Amazon is considered a 'dealer' although you cannot audition products at their PO box.

Michael

[DrWho]

You know you're over-driving the sub when it starts to fart - man there's no good way to say that.

[colterphoto1]

how do you mean Doc?

[Tobby]

My 36" TV is on a cabinet in a little alcove next to the stone hearth. The THX subs sit right in front of the hearth. So not only are they on the ends of separate joists, but have a ton of stone next to them.

At loud volumes, my picture has vibrated. You might have problems with your setup. What is the floor system at that location?

M

Most houses in Texas have concrete slab foundations. Very few have basements. Such is the case with my house. The concrete floor where the subs will go is covered with a pergo type laminate with a very thin cushion. The tv I will be replacing is an old style 50" Mitts that stands directly on the floor and the Revel that is temp placed about three feet away can make the picture flicker when cranked up. I plan to replace the tv with a rp like the Somy lcos. In the proposed set up there would only be a couple of inches seperation between the top of the sub and the stand of the tv. I could probably insulate around the subs if that would help or put some sort of foam cushion under them to reduce vibration. I am open to suggestion.

Tom

[colterphoto1]

I like floor shock, so I'd leave the subs on the concrete floor. You might try some type of rubber 'hockey puck' feet for the TV stand or the TV itself to help isolate it. I wouldn't try stuffing the cavity between them with anything, air would be a better isolator than any insulation you could put in there.

M

[kramskoi]

personally, i'd stake my claim to the 14x17, which sounds like it would be a "pressure mode" room, as opposed to the "reverb" room you are in...going to be very hard to pressurize that space...with all the openings, you're looking at a 2x15 "at least" for sealed...were it me, it would be 2- 2x15 sealed units (opposite-firing) with a first order rolloff (No highpass filtering)...this puts Qtc. between .45 and .5 Q...tight and loud...the THX Klipsch would'nt get anywhere near it below or above 20 Hz...of course this would be a DIY project so i concur with putting the Revel in the 14x17 and adding the dual THX to the great room...you still may not get the impact you are looking for...an earlier poster was talking about the wind from the subs blowing his hair back...wait until you hear a high-Vd 2x15 sealed or better shifting the air in a pressure mode room...in a word...VISCERAL.

[Tobby]

personally, i'd stake my claim to the 14x17, which sounds like it would be a "pressure mode" room, as opposed to the "reverb" room you are in...going to be very hard to pressurize that space...with all the openings, you're looking at a 2x15 "at least" for sealed...were it me, it would be 2- 2x15 sealed units (opposite-firing) with a first order rolloff (No highpass filtering)...this puts Qtc. between .45 and .5 Q...tight and loud...the THX Klipsch would'nt get anywhere near it below or above 20 Hz...of course this would be a DIY project so i concur with putting the Revel in the 14x17 and adding the dual THX to the great room...you still may not get the impact you are looking for...an earlier poster was talking about the wind from the subs blowing his hair back...wait until you hear a high-Vd 2x15 sealed or better shifting the air in a pressure mode room...in a word...VISCERAL.

uuuh huh. You started out scaring me a bit. 2- 2x15 at least. You are way over my head. I guess I have to strike a balance between perfect and practical. Great and affordable. I hear what you are saying about staking my claim to the 14 x 17 room. That has occured to me. Problem is it is a multi use room. Office, computer room, den and now maybe second ht. Next house I build will have a dedicated ht and I will do it up right. Maybe by then I will understand everything you just said. LOL. Until then "it's all about compromise" (sorry for stealing you line Doc). Thanks for your interesing obsevation.

Tom

[kramskoi]

personally, i'd stake my claim to the 14x17, which sounds like it would be a "pressure mode" room, as opposed to the "reverb" room you are in...going to be very hard to pressurize that space...with all the openings, you're looking at a 2x15 "at least" for sealed...were it me, it would be 2- 2x15 sealed units (opposite-firing) with a first order rolloff (No highpass filtering)...this puts Qtc. between .45 and .5 Q...tight and loud...the THX Klipsch would'nt get anywhere near it below or above 20 Hz...of course this would be a DIY project so i concur with putting the Revel in the 14x17 and adding the dual THX to the great room...you still may not get the impact you are looking for...an earlier poster was talking about the wind from the subs blowing his hair back...wait until you hear a high-Vd 2x15 sealed or better shifting the air in a pressure mode room...in a word...VISCERAL.

uuuh huh. You started out scaring me a bit. 2- 2x15 at least. You are way over my head. I guess I have to strike a balance between perfect and practical. Great and affordable. I hear what you are saying about staking my claim to the 14 x 17 room. That has occured to me. Problem is it is a multi use room. Office, computer room, den and now maybe second ht. Next house I build will have a dedicated ht and I will do it up right. Maybe by then I will understand everything you just said. LOL. Until then "it's all about compromise" (sorry for stealing you line Doc). Thanks for your interesing obsevation.

Tom

sorry Tom...i'm on the DIY track these days and i've just finished a 2x15 for my small room...did'nt mean to overwhelm you...i'm always thinking headroom, extension and transient response...having to go +12 dB on the Revel is not a good sign though...your room must be really large...the Revel is touted favorably in many circles...but commercial designs must also strike a compromise...i can understand this.

You'll enjoy the journey if indeed you do endeavor to build a dedicated HT...good luck to you.

[DrWho]

Tobby, would you happen to have any schenematics of your room? and surrounding rooms? Even a rough sketch in MS Paint would be very helpful. I'm more worried about the magnetic shielding issues - not so much the floor shock.

For what it's worth, having an open layout isn't necessarily a bad thing because it dramatically alters the modal response of the room (hopefully removing it completely). The side-effect is you don't get the pressure loading that dramatically increases the bass response.

However, the Ultra2 subs were designed to go into a 3000 cubic foot room (THX Ultra2 specs) and the amp has a "boundary gain compensation" knob for reducing low frequency extension when used in smaller rooms (yes, a "high-pass" for a subwoofer cuz it's too loud). Room gain in a 3000 cubic foot room begins at about 21 Hz, which means the Ultra2 subs will be able to maintain their frequency response to at least 21Hz, regardless of how open the room is. In situations where you don't have true 1/8th space loading you will lose at most 3dB from the max output. (like if you move them away from the corners or have openings near the corners). So you're left with 127dB with an F3 of 20Hz which I feel is still impressive. If I'm not mistaken, Klipsch performs all their low frequency testing outside in a true 1/8th space environment...so by moving into a room you are only going to realize more output (which is better than 1/8th space).

All that said, I would agree that you can usually achieve far more bang for the buck by going DIY. If you wanted to go all out you could measure the actual room gain of your environment and design the sub to roll off at the same rate. You can pick how big and what shape is most optimal (sonically and visually) for your budget and room. Heck, for $3k you could probably pull off 130dB with an F3 of 10Hz and not take up an inch of floorspace [H]

It really is all about choosing the system of compromises. I think moving to Ultra2's in your main room would be a considerate upgrade and then you're left with a still very good sub for your other room.