procrustes Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I'm a newbie to the forums but would like to ask a few questions and maybe get some guidance. I have a pair of Klipsch SF3 speakers and I now am getting one of them repaired under warrantee - I somehow blew a tweeter which may have been due to using an underpowered amplifier/receiver (65 watts per channel). Anyway, since I've been told by more learned audiophiles than I (actually a sales guy in the a/v department) that underpowering is not good if you want to get clear crisp sound, I am determined to get a new receiver/amp. Here are my questions: 1. In getting a new receiver is there any advice on what type of receiver and what power I should get? My speakers are rated at 100 watts /channel. I use this system downstairs ONLY as an audio system (to listen to music only). Is there any advantage to getting an AV receiver (or is that the only type they sell nowadays?). My old receiver was strictly for a stereo (2 speaker) application. Nowadays most receivers seem to be designed for 5.1 or 7.1 systems and beyond or it seems that way. 2. I AM interested in getting the best sound I can but I'm sure cost will be an issue but not a big one. The audio guy at the local a/v mart said I had a good set of speakers and I should consider getting a 7.1 av receiver. I'm thinking he may have just wanted to make a sale since I am not interested in video applicatioins downstairs. However he mentioned that even in strict audio applications I could ?bi amp? my klipsch speakers (he tried to explain it but I'd need a wiring diagram) and get really outstanding audio. Anybody know about this or can anyone point me to a FAQ somewhere where I could learn? I gather the idea is to utilize the extra surround speaker connections from the receiver and wire to the extra set of terminals in the SF3s, but not sure about this. 3. I guess my main question is what can I get that will make a difference to my listening pleasure. I play mostly jazz/rock/other music and I would like to enjoy what I get. If I did get an AV receiver, can I make use of the 5.1 or 7.1 receiver by biamping? Further, can I simply hook up a subwoofer to my new receiver with my existing sf3's and get a noticeable improvement to my listening pleasure? Or is that strictly for video applications? I'm really just trying to learn from your responses. Hope you can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Are you talking about the older Synergy SF-3? http://www.klipsch.com/products/discontinued/details/sf-3.aspx power handling150 watts maximum continuous (600 watts peak) or the newer Synergy F-3? http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/f-3.aspx power handling150 w (600 w peak) Either way, they can handle 150W [] The general rule of thumb is to have twice as much power than you think you're ever going to need - if you plan on driving your speakers to their absolute max, then 300W per channel would be a good place to start. Chances are you don't listen that loud, so something like 100W per channel would be more than sufficient. As far as biamping - I'll give you the short answer, which is don't bother. If nothing else, do it for the sake of the "KISS" principal. There are a lot of emotional debates on this topic that I'd rather not get into, but in your situation I highly doubt you'll realize any improvement - and you'll end up spending twice as much in the process. So what are your longterm goals for your audio system? Is this strictly going to be two-channel for the rest of your life, or do you ever envision going to surround sound someday? How loud do you like to listen to music? Clipping 65W into a 97/98 dB speaker is freaken loud, which makes me wonder if your old amp isn't malfunctioning? Speaking of which, what is the old amplifier you're looking to upgrade from? And what kind of budget do you have for your new amplification? I know that's a lot of questions, but it'll help everyone decide what kinds of products to consider for your situation. Based on my understanding of your situation so far, I have three recommendations: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html http://www.harmankardon.com/product_detail.aspx?Region=USA&Country=US&Language=ENG&cat=REC∏=HK%203480&sType=C http://www.harmankardon.com/product_detail.aspx?Region=USA&Country=US&Language=ENG&cat=REC∏=HK%203380&sType=C All of these amplifiers have some form of subwoofer preout as well as preamp outputs, all of which you could possibly use with a future subwoofer. The Klipsch Synergy Sub-12 (at Best Buy) is an amazing subwoofer so I would highly recommend pursuing that route in the future - especially if funds permit. Welcome to the Forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procrustes Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Thanks for the quick response and the recommendations. To answer, I'm replacing a SONY 65 w per channel receiver (strd615, I think). I don't want to risk blowing another speaker because of distortion, assuming that's what caused this previous episode. Perhaps I'm just a bit more hard of hearing than I know, but I didn't get all that much volume from the SONY so I'm hoping it's the receiver and not me. As for price, it's really not an issue up to 1000 or so. Could go a little higher if the benefits were there. I was looking at the Denon AV receivers but you seem to be suggesting straight 2 speaker audio amplifiers (Is that what 2 channel means? 2 speakers?). What you suggest is probably what I want. I'm not against putting in more speakers, but I only want to do it if there is some real enhancement to what I'll hear. I'm assuming a sub - which you say I can connect even to a 2 channel amp/receiver - will add something to the listening experience. Do these answers make a difference to your initial response. Thanks Dr. ! Almost forgot. I have the SF3's which are rated at 100 watts per channel. I believe these were initially rated at 150 but Klipsch rerated and newer labels were put on the speakers showing 100 watts per channel. Hope that's right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I happen to like SONY equipment, many here don't.......I presently own a Sony 895 rated at 100 per X 6..............it is a great unit in 5.1 and DTS modes, but I find it lacking in 2 channel........SONY really handles the Home Theatre end quite well........A sub sounds great, better for movies..............I also am looking to move up in the power end....I seem to have narrowed my choices,(not set in stone) to Sony ES, OUTLAW Audio, and am seriously looking into PANASONIC Digital Receivers.....there are alot of choices out there, but I need a unit that will fill all my needs, HT, and 2 channel.......so, we're kinda doin' the same thing............your price range will more than cover what your trying to do, many will jump in before your done..............questions will fly, get ready.........TUBES or SS, Receiver or seperates, will you use a turntable, many questions you might not have even thought about....................Ready to catch the Fever?.................Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procrustes Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Thanks for the input. Well I liked Dr.Who's advice for starters but if more info is needed I can provide. I do have a small vinyl collection so my main sources are CD, turntable and receiver (although if there are any receivers/amps out there that can handle flash memory I wouldn't mind something that could handle that instead of mp3s burned to cd. Is there any such thing?). As for separates or an integrated receiver/amp, I'm open to either but want to stay under 1500 as a maximum (that includes the sub). Always figured tubes would be very expensive and out of my price range. Is that incorrect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Nobody will be able to tell you if you're going to enjoy surround sound or not...and to fully appreciate it you're going to need a dvd player or sacd player of some sort. But I think that's opening a whole nother can of worms you don't want to get into. I know I am just happy listening in 2-channel....and I even have a full fledged surround setup available. I just end up listening to more 2-channel music (CD's) than anything else. I suppose the only other question is how happy are you with your SF-3's? Would speaker upgrades be an option? If so, is the used market something you'd consider? I think an old clean Harman Kardon X30 (430, 630, 730, etc etc) reciever would be right up your ally. It's one of the nicer amplifiers out there with plenty of balls and will cost you around $100. [] Couple that with a pair of Cornwalls, Fortes, or Chorus speakers for under $700 and you'd have yourself one rockin setup. It's well within your budget and it would sound infinetly better. The old HK's have some really nice phone pre's as well. If you need to go smaller, then you might consider a pair of Heresy speakers for around $500 and then you'd have plenty of funds available for a killer subwoofer (maybe even two). So many options...it's up to you to decide what kind of route you wanna take. I wouldn't recommend tubes, especially with your SF-3's and I wouldn't recommend Sony either. Every STR reciever I've listened to is just grainy and hard on the highs....but maybe that's just my young ears being annoying [6] The important issue here is system synergy (no, not the lineup). The older HK recievers and tubes are "nice" with the older heritage stuff because the speakers tend to be a bit on the bright side - so the extra warmness evens out in the end. The newer electronics are going to be voiced better for the more modern speakers that enjoy a more linear amplification. The SF-3's are also going to need a little extra oompf in the amp to handle the low impedance dips and damp them woofers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel's wife Posted November 10, 2006 Moderators Share Posted November 10, 2006 Nobody will be able to tell you if you're going to enjoy surround sound or not...and to fully appreciate it you're going to need a dvd player or sacd player of some sort. But I think that's opening a whole nother can of worms you don't want to get into. I know I am just happy listening in 2-channel....and I even have a full fledged surround setup available. I just end up listening to more 2-channel music (CD's) than anything else. I suppose the only other question is how happy are you with your SF-3's? Would speaker upgrades be an option? If so, is the used market something you'd consider? I think an old clean Harman Kardon X30 (430, 630, 730, etc etc) reciever would be right up your ally. It's one of the nicer amplifiers out there with plenty of balls and will cost you around $100. [] Couple that with a pair of Cornwalls, Fortes, or Chorus speakers for under $700 and you'd have yourself one rockin setup. It's well within your budget and it would sound infinetly better. The old HK's have some really nice phone pre's as well. If you need to go smaller, then you might consider a pair of Heresy speakers for around $500 and then you'd have plenty of funds available for a killer subwoofer (maybe even two). So many options...it's up to you to decide what kind of route you wanna take. I wouldn't recommend tubes, especially with your SF-3's and I wouldn't recommend Sony either. Every STR reciever I've listened to is just grainy and hard on the highs....but maybe that's just my young ears being annoying [6] The important issue here is system synergy (no, not the lineup). The older HK recievers and tubes are "nice" with the older heritage stuff because the speakers tend to be a bit on the bright side - so the extra warmness evens out in the end. The newer electronics are going to be voiced better for the more modern speakers that enjoy a more linear amplification. The SF-3's are also going to need a little extra oompf in the amp to handle the low impedance dips and damp them woofers. This is probably the first time I have ever responded to a thread in "Technical", but here goes. Having owned a Synergy 5.1 set up previously. I feel I may be qualified to respond to this thread. I would have to agree with Dr. Who's recommendation. We have a 6.1 surround sound system using Fortes and Forte IIs. We also have Cornwall III's. (In case you haven't already done so, take a look under Pilgramage, "dtels Cornwalls" and you can see Cornwall IIIs being constructed at the factory in Hope. We won the Cornwall III's at the 2006 Pilgramage in Hope.) We use the Cornwall III's primarily for two channel listening. cds etc. We use the Forte set up for concert dvds and movies. I believe you stated this system is primarily for cds, lps etc. If that is the case I would seriously consider Dr. Who's recommendation to upgrade the speakers. I think you would really be impressed with the Heritage line of speakers. Before you spend your available funds try to audition a pair of Heritage speakers if you have never had the priviledge of doing so. The Hereseys offer a lot of bang for the buck. If you like your Synergy speakers you will love the Heritage speakers. BTW, welcome to the Forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procrustes Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Wouldn't you know...I came for advice on the amplifier and end up with more advice on the speakers!! [] That's ok. To be expected I think. My first priority is getting a good amp/receiver. At least you all didn't seriously recommend getting a McIntosh amp for 4 or 5 grand!! That's way out of my league. Seriously though, I'm probably not going to go after new speakers since the Klipsch are only 2 years old and were keeping me happy for a short time. I think you have my desires down about right. I'll seriously look at an HK but would appreciate other recommendations at about that same price range. Don't know what the sub will cost but I'm less concerned about that at this point. I've got a surround system upstairs 5.1 with the home video with 100 w/channel yamaha/klipsch system so I know what that's like and I really haven't noticed that's it's all that important for listening to music. Downstairs on the main floor however I didn't want a TV/video center so I just have music/radio/etc and two main speakers (with perhaps a sub) seem just about right: I can crank it up when I want, and it's still possible to hold conversations without letting the music take control of the whole environment. Hope that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I didn't recommend speakers did I? If you haven't got the power system you want, the speakers don't matter.....there are so many choices out there...only you really know what it is you need.........Sure I could tell you MAC, I'd love to own MAC....but...my overall needs must come before a BRAND NAME purchase like that......many sources of information on the web...I have begun a search myself..........Sony ES, OUTLAW AUDIO, and the Panasonic Digital receivers...many things to think about............Hang around here long enough, you'll get answers, what you do with them is on YOU.....So it begins...Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel's wife Posted November 10, 2006 Moderators Share Posted November 10, 2006 If you don't mind my asking, what speakers do you have in your upstairs system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 DTL's Wife: "The Hereseys offer a lot of bang for the buck. " I totally agree. We have been listening to Heresies more than the Klipschorns for music-only listening. I'm going to try either some acoustic foam or poly-fill on the inside back and side panels, which should have the effect of increasing the overall internal volume...... Whatever, that's another issue. Great speaker for the money, for sure. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale A B Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 The original premise for the question was asking if the Sony receiver was under-powered for the speakers. It should not be - Klipsch speakers are very efficient and do not require lots of watts. You do need to keep the bass and treble flat, or adjust only for less than loud applications. I have the old RF-3 speakers, similar to your SF's. They are a fine speaker, and you do not need to upgrade. You also do not need "Heritage" speakers to cure your minor problem. I've blown one tweeter in 30 years of listening - it was caused by too much equalizer. Basically a useless piece of equipment except for tapes or lp's. I've run Klipsch and other speakers thru a vast amount of cheap and middle of the road electronics, and yes, some may need bass or treble boost, but if you want it loud, keep your hands off the treble, bass & loudness buttons! I listen to 2 channel 90 % of the time and if I was to upgrade anything, I'd add a subwoofer. If I were to upgrade the receiver, I'd get a Panny Digital or an Outlaw. If you want surround sound, get a good pair of headphones when you need a fix. You don't need to throw a lot of money at this as some seem to think. NP - Seether - Disclaimer (via Polk Monitor 7's and Nikko 35 wpc receiver)................................................................................................annoying double-tracking again in the right hand corner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Well there you have it............................good answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Erik, could I suggest a methodology for your fill tweak? Just do one of them first so you can perform immediate comparisons of with and without - I don't have the links at hand, but many have tried putting fill in the Heresys only to take it back out after hearing that the bass no longer has the 'tightness' that the Heresys do so well for their range... may be amplifier dependent, though... Before I got my beautiful 2004 LS with the AL-4 networks, I listened to my mid 70's Hereseys for almost 20 years, with pedestrian SS, big power SS, and lastly SET. I found them to be extremely listenable - great speakers. If I had thought adding fill to them would make an improvement I would have done so, but I read so many cases where this had been attempted with dismal results - but that said, I look forward to reading your results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Erik, one more thing... While you have the backs of the Heresys off, try something al la Bose: This is probably only appropriate for moderate volume SET listening, but with the backs off of the speakers, put them in the corners and listen (carefully at moderate volume). I did this once when I had mine open to do the p-trap mod, and the effect is strong and interesting. I think it is somewhat well known that the Heresy woofer is not the exact spec for it's sealed cab, and by letting it loosen up with no back on the speaker, corner placement lets it reflect out fairly well... worth trying while you have the backs off anyway. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procrustes Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 I couldn't tell you the model numbers at this point since it would require going into the wall..at my age I couldn't get up that high without falling for sure. [] They're klipsch 100 watt per channel is all I can tell you for the front and rear...with a synergy C-1 center channel and a Klipsch KSW-10 subwoofer. I'm pleased with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procrustes Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Thanks for your input. That's probably what I'll do (upgrade the receiver) and probably go for the sub. It was good to get the early negative feedback on bi amping or whatever the sales person I talked to was talking about. I'll stick with 2 channel (now that I know what that is) and just add the sub. I'm also looking up the "Panny" digital you recommended - it's a new name for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel's wife Posted November 10, 2006 Moderators Share Posted November 10, 2006 DTL's Wife: "The Hereseys offer a lot of bang for the buck. " I totally agree. We have been listening to Heresies more than the Klipschorns for music-only listening. I'm going to try either some acoustic foam or poly-fill on the inside back and side panels, which should have the effect of increasing the overall internal volume...... Whatever, that's another issue. Great speaker for the money, for sure. Erik Of all the speakers we auditioned while in Hope, the Hereseys surprised me the most. I did not expect the quality of sound that came from those speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 DTL's Wife: "The Hereseys offer a lot of bang for the buck. " I totally agree. We have been listening to Heresies more than the Klipschorns for music-only listening. I'm going to try either some acoustic foam or poly-fill on the inside back and side panels, which should have the effect of increasing the overall internal volume...... Whatever, that's another issue. Great speaker for the money, for sure. Erik Of all the speakers we auditioned while in Hope, the Hereseys surprised me the most. I did not expect the quality of sound that came from those speakers. I couldn't agree more...I might even go so far and claim that the new H3's are the best voiced of all the new heritage (even though I'd rather have.the Cornwall 3 - man you guys are so lucky). They really got that synergy thing down just right; getting such a huge sound outta such a small speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 "Panny" is hip lingo for Panasonic (or panties, but I doubt that's what he's talking about). Welcome to the forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.