BluRay and HD-DVD: where are the Big Guns?

[damonrpayne]

Companies like Warner who are supporting both formats do not have anything at stake in the format war besides making more money selling movies.

Why, then, are big titles like "The Matrix" and the LOTR movies being withheld? One would think these would hurry adoption of the new formats faster than some of the crap films that have come out like "Click" and "Doom". Thoughts?

[mas]

Damon,

I know many are rationalizing the AACS and HDCP issue as "they can't/wouldn't dare do that", but the fact is they are going to!

John Dvorak inadvertently hits at least part of the issue in his latest rant at http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2066026,00.asp in the Dec.26 issue of PCMag (p.62) - the once worthwhile computer mag turned gadget weekly reader.

As a resident curmudgeon (who is also very happy to embrace REAL standards!)...With all due respect (and of course you are all welcome to do whatever you like!), being an early adopter in the HD recorded content format debate is a crap shoot where there are NO winning odds. Especially when the major manufacturers still have not produced a product offering where all the pieces fit together!

IMO, there is absolutely no compelling reason to invest big bucks in a state of the art video system in a market where SOTA has the life of a Mayfly, and where all the pieces of the system chain are not yet fully compatible with each other, nor with the established standard that is simply in hold prior to implementation!

And if folks what to rationalize and stick their heads in the sand over real eDRM standards that are in the process of being implimented, albeit at a slower rate simply (and ONLY!) due to the lack of hardware to support the HD marketplace, you do so at your own peril. Besides, even iSuppli and other market watch organizations are still predicting 33%+ price reductions over the next year (and continuing beyond that period) as the production capabilities finally reach the capacity to catch up to and surpass demand - turning the market on its head and changing the market environment from a seller's market to a buyer's market as a state of over-supply and deep inventories develops.

In other words, regardless of one's emotion predisposition, from a purely economic point of view (as there is NO compelling technological impetus at this point) it is silly to rush to buy in an immature seller's market instead of waiting for the developing buyer's markert featuring more fully developed and compatible products.

But, that is my position, and it is a position supported by industry facts (including the factual delays) - but each can do whatever they want. I just don't understand the seeming 'emotionally compelling' need to buy a technology that lacks the system chain continuity and compatibility necessary to make it ready for primetime!

Have fun...

[damonrpayne]

Sure, that's all well and good mas, but my question was that given that consumers and studios are indeed already doing what you council against, why are they choosing to withold the titles that will make them more $$$?

[mas]

The fact is that most are not!

And there is going to be quite some fallout!

Read the article, Dvorak makes a good point as to why not! []

[Blazemaster]

no offense to anyone here, but what makes you think that someone from PC mag has any kind of authority or passion about high quality home theater products? Sure, the technology is new and not yet mature, but it doesn't mean that it's useless. If you are speaking about the HDMI compatibility issue, you can always fall on the good ol' component connection, and it can handle 1080p of video resolution w/o any problems. Other than the HDMI input issue, I see no other " compatibility issue" that is within the system chain that you speak of. Can you elaborate more on your statement regarding that no major company have produced a product offering where all the pieces fit together? I have owned my Toshiba HDA1 for about 4 months now, and I have yet to have any compatibility issues, other than installing a firmware update that took no more than 5 minutes. Even prior to the firmware update that Toshiba sent to me for free, all the HD DVD movies that I had played flawlessly. I own about 30 HD DVD titles, and have netflixed just about any other titles out there. You also stated that you see no reason why companies should invest big bucks on a format that you don't believe will last, but most studios and hardware manufacture's have already picked a format to support or support both format, the original poster was simply asking how come the bigger movies are not out yet? Not how come there are no software coming out at all? Bottom line, HD contents will bring us one step closer to better home theater experience. I have not read the article by Dvorak, but I am not on a computer forum, and given the trend that computer is going today and the Ipod nation, I honestly don't care for what PC mag's writter has to say about something that he/she has no first hand experience with. It's like asking someone that has a front projector with a 5.1 setup why he's not buying an IPOD nano in baby blue and downloading iTunes?

[mas]

I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with something I have written, and I don't mean to be rude, but seldom have I read a response to something I wrote that has so misinterpreted and misrepresented what I have said as to be almost completely non sequitar.

"Passion"? First, it is a business. "Useless"? Where did that come from?

And "You also stated that you see no reason why companies should invest big bucks on a format that you don't believe will last...". Complete and utter nonsense.

And yes, whatever you do, don't read something before commenting on the content!

Compatibility? You need to do quite a bit more research into AACS and HDCP! Let's see, is your monitor/TV compliant? Is your player? (If you are intending to use a computer or media center PC, is your video card & monitor, as well as your HD player compliant? (the first gen HD-DVD players aren't!). The irony is that the majority of the components currently on the market are not. And it is not the manufacturer's job to make sure that you buy compatible products for your future intended use. And if you cannot see how or what HD-DVD or Blu-Ray has to do with digital data storage and computers, it probably won't help to explain this nexus.

I appreciate you enthusiasm for the formats, but may I suggest that you do a bit more research into the underlying fundamental technology.

[Blazemaster]

damonpayne, I feel you about those big movies being withheld, and Matrix, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars trilogy are some of my favorite movies, and had a great influence on getting me into the Home Theater hobby. I just ordered Harry Potter Goblets of Fire from the UK, for some reason UK is already releasing it in their HD DVD market. I'm really excited for it to show up at my door step, it will be my first Epic HD DVD to help me build my HD DVD library. I've seen a lot of articles regarding HD DVD leading the format and that BluRay will probably never catch up due to HD DVD favorable advantage in timing, price and cheaper cost of transition, so who knows the war might end sooner than you think. We'll get a better idea of the outcome of the format war by the end of 2007 IMO, but who knows, both format might just coexist for some more years to come. Either way, I really don't care who wins the war as long I can get more HD content, might even pick up a PS3 to use as a BluRay player when the prices drop closer to its regular retail price.

mas: My projector is actually HD complaint, not sure what you are getting at about compatibility. Like I said before, I do own a HD DVD player and never had any problem with it. The only issue that I saw was HDMI compatibility issue and I do agree that it's useless and if I had a choice I'd rather have DVI because I'd like to keep my audio and video on separate paths anyways. You asked if my player is HDCP complaint? To be honest with you, I'm not sure but why would I want it to be HDCP complaint? It plays all my HD DVD movies just fine, and I'm not going to support any pirated version movies anyways. It is actually currently region free...I love Home Theater experience and I'd never buy a pirated DVD simply because the original version looks and sounds better. I can see what advantages HDDVD or BluRay (especially BluRay with it's higher storage), but if read my original comment, I was not knocking HD DVD or BluRay, actually quite the opposite. You were the one stating that the new formats are not worth spending massive amounts of money into, and that "IMO, there is absolutely no compelling reason to invest big bucks in a state of the art video system in a market where SOTA has the life of a Mayfly, and where all the pieces of the system chain are not yet fully compatible with each other, nor with the established standard that is simply in hold prior to implementation!" Remember this thread started by damon asking how come there's no big movies available yet in HD, and you telling him that there's no reason for major manufactures to invest large amount of money in something that won't last, and then start asking me how I can't see the possible advantages that HD with higher storage can do to the computer market. Regardless, you sarcastically mentioned that I should do more research before making my comment about the longevity of early HD formats, but let me ask you this, do you have any first hand experience with a HD DVD player? If so, what exactly are the compatibility issues that you are talking about? I personally have a HD DVD player, and I know for certain that it will work with just about any form of TVs/monitors on the market. I have actually seen a forum member from a different forum that were able to install the HD DVD drive from a HDA1 and a BluRay drive into a HTPC and he can watch both formats through his computer. After all, we are all here on this section of the forum to learn more about home theater related things, and I'm always willing to learn new things about the industry, what form of monitor or TV is the HD DVD player not compatible with?

[mas]

damonpayne, I feel you about those big movies being withheld, and Matrix, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars trilogy are some of my favorite movies, and had a great influence on getting me into the Home Theater hobby. I just ordered Harry Potter Goblets of Fire from the UK, for some reason UK is already releasing it in their HD DVD market. I'm really excited for it to show up at my door step, it will be my first Epic HD DVD to help me build my HD DVD library. I've seen a lot of articles regarding HD DVD leading the format and that BluRay will probably never catch up due to HD DVD favorable advantage in timing, price and cheaper cost of transition, so who knows the war might end sooner than you think. We'll get a better idea of the outcome of the format war by the end of 2007 IMO, but who knows, both format might just coexist for some more years to come. Either way, I really don't care who wins the war as long I can get more HD content, might even pick up a PS3 to use as a BluRay player when the prices drop closer to its regular retail price.

mas: My projector is actually HD complaint, not sure what you are getting at about compatibility. Like I said before, I do own a HD DVD player and never had any problem with it. The only issue that I saw was HDMI compatibility issue and I do agree that it's useless and if I had a choice I'd rather have DVI because I'd like to keep my audio and video on separate paths anyways. You asked if my player is HDCP complaint? To be honest with you, I'm not sure but why would I want it to be HDCP complaint? It plays all my HD DVD movies just fine, and I'm not going to support any pirated version movies anyways. It is actually currently region free...I love Home Theater experience and I'd never buy a pirated DVD simply because the original version looks and sounds better. I can see what advantages HDDVD or BluRay (especially BluRay with it's higher storage), but if read my original comment, I was not knocking HD DVD or BluRay, actually quite the opposite. You were the one stating that the new formats are not worth spending massive amounts of money into, and that "IMO, there is absolutely no compelling reason to invest big bucks in a state of the art video system in a market where SOTA has the life of a Mayfly, and where all the pieces of the system chain are not yet fully compatible with each other, nor with the established standard that is simply in hold prior to implementation!" Remember this thread started by damon asking how come there's no big movies available yet in HD, and you telling him that there's no reason for major manufactures to invest large amount of money in something that won't last, and then start asking me how I can't see the possible advantages that HD with higher storage can do to the computer market. Regardless, you sarcastically mentioned that I should do more research before making my comment about the longevity of early HD formats, but let me ask you this, do you have any first hand experience with a HD DVD player? If so, what exactly are the compatibility issues that you are talking about? I personally have a HD DVD player, and I know for certain that it will work with just about any form of TVs/monitors on the market. I have actually seen a forum member from a different forum that were able to install the HD DVD drive from a HDA1 and a BluRay drive into a HTPC and he can watch both formats through his computer. After all, we are all here on this section of the forum to learn more about home theater related things, and I'm always willing to learn new things about the industry, what form of monitor or TV is the HD DVD player not compatible with?

No offense, as I realize that you are very sincere and well meaning in your post, but you have missed my point (as I assumed that more were aware of the integral eDRM technology underlying recorded HD content! - as I know Damon is![]).

What you are missing in the AACS/HDCP component that are fundamental to both the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats and which the content owners are determined to fully impliment - although they have delayed the rollout while still maintaining the full intention of implimentation of the technology.

And most of the TV and computer monitors, video cards, and even the early gen HD players are not AACS/HDCP compliant - which will render them useless for playing compliant HD recorded content in anything other than grand 480i resolution! And no, there are no hardware updates allowing for the upgrading of the units - just as there is no V-chip upgrade for TVs!

Below is a link that is not focused on the full issue but it does mention the component parts of the AACS and HDCP standards. I mention AACS and HDCP as an informed consumer is a smart consumer. And stocking up on product before the standards are fully implimented without an eye for future compatibility definately invokes the caveat emptor credo!

http://www.hhicc.org/PCWorld.com%20-%20Most%20Monitors%20Won't%20Play%20New%20HD%20Video.pdf

http://www.aacsla.com/home

How can the proverbial 'they' do this? Easy! The content owners have already stated their intent to use this technology. They are determined to prevent digital copies of their material! They have already announced their intention to use the technology; it is simply a matter of when they will fully invoke it. And like any other encoding process, be it SACD, DVD-Audio, 802.11i-AES, etc., if you want to utilize it, you must have compliant hardware! The standards are a part of the platform licensing agreements with both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Hardware manufacturers don't have to make compliant equipment, but if you buy it, don't complain when in a year or two you can't fully utilize your very expensive equipment for the purposes for which you anticipated using them! We can debate when the technology will be fully implimented, but not if. Heads up!

BTW, for a movie to be worth the use of HD technology, it must be filmed in HD. You cannot accurately increase the amount of data contained in the original file, and synthesized approximation is a pretty poor reason to justify HD.

[efzauner]

The answer to your basic question why are the big studios waiting before introducing the big moovies is bsically one of money.. It cost money to author and re do the movies for HD, the original producers/directors etc have control over it as well. Why in hell would the big studios spend time and money to convert to HD, then spend the marketing money to launch and distribute so early when the adoption rate of HD players is so low..They will wait until HD dvd player adoption is large enought so that they can sell millions and millions of copies. Remember how long it took for Geroge Lucas to come out with DVD versions of Star wars? DVDs where introduced in 1997 and the star wars DVD set where available in 2004 I think. So a full 7 years!

We will have to keep waiting.

[Blazemaster]

Thanks mas, for helping me understand more about the prerecorded HD content, you obviously know much more than I do than what's just on the surface. I understand that early adopters also gets it the worst than those that have more patience, but I have been waiting for about 2 years for HD DVD and BluRay to come out, so I bought into it after a brief research on it. I also apologize for misinterpreting your post, guess I took your comment as completly agains HD, but you were simply stating that it's too early for major companies to put in tons of money on a format that are not certain will be around. Regardless, every consumer will spend money on something that they feel is worth the money, and HD is worth it IMO. Anyways, have a good weekend guys.

[mas]

I think the various HD formats will be around for a while - as far as which format will dominate, etc., well, I will resist issuing my guess. Economics, rather than user passion, will determine that, and I think that there are already a few strong indicators of this available.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

So, the issue really isn't if they will be around. I assume they will be around, although I do not know their exact lifecycle - and while holographic memory is a real technology, the price is not going to be competitive (as if HD is!!) in the near term. Besides, holographic memory is targeting enterprise data storage as their primary market - and they have much deeper pockets, so the push to develop $250 recorders is not their primary niche.

The main issue is for each person to determine just what they desire their system to do.

If you are content with watching up converted traditional DVDs on a large screen TV, the time is fine right now. The price of TVs will be coming down as the market will change from a seller's market to a buyer's market due the increased manufacturing capacity which is currently changing from a supply limited market to a buyer limited market - in other words, the increased manufacturing capacity will soon result in more sets than the market will buy - resulting in increased inventories and increasing competition and lower set prices. iSuppli already is predicting 33% price drops for at least the next year.

So, the issue is, do you plan to watch HD recorded content on your computer and or TV? If so, you can do so for a while (until they fully implement the eDRM standards), if you are willing to pay the premium prices.

BUT, there is a big catch. In order to watch the AACS/HDCP encoded HD disks, both your video card and monitor (on the computer) and your player and monitor on your TV must support AACS/HDCP. If they do not, once the system is fully activated, your expensive sets will have to be replaced if you want to watch the HD content in HD and not 480i (SDTV).

And that is an awfully expensive lesson to learn then. Oh, I fully anticipate a class action lawsuit against all of the retailers who are aware of this and are failing to educate consumers who are all be told that now is the time to buy, and that sure, everything is HD ready! It is interesting that this is a popular topic in some of the industry (not consumer) publications. And as Dvorak alludes in his piece, many are discussing the extent of their exposure when they lose the case (as they have failed to actively inform consumers of the AACS implementations as they usher everyone into their stores to buy the 'everything is great and ready for HD' merchandise. The irony will be that when the class action suit is settled, the lawyers will be rich and each consumer will probably qualify for their piece of the settlement that will not replace their $3000-$5000 TV, etc, but it will amount to $6.95 and 2 Netflix rentals (which will require a new AACS compliant set to view them on!!!)

So, my personal take is that unless you have the deep pockets to replace your equipment when AACS is implemented, I would temper my exposure by buying a reasonably priced set now, and save your pennies for the newer AACS/HDCP compliant systems as they arrive - and benefit from the dropping prices as the market matures more fully.

After all, does it really hurt to wait a bit, insure that your equipment is compliant with the DRM stardards and save allot of money in the process? Is the gain worth the risk? In my book, the ROI is too exhorbitant.

(IMO, I find the current DVDs and up converted DVDs of non HD recorded content just fine. Its the audio that renders the material worth the big bucks, not whether I can see some football running back's nose hairs or the pores on Oprah's nose. We are still fundamentally limited by the programming. And there is not much sense in paying a premium price for non-HD recorded material being synthesized into 'quote unquote' HD material! You in effect already get that with your up converted signal. You cannot add more resolution that what is present in the original master! And while there are a few HD titles that I would enjoy, such as the LOTR trilogy, the rest simply aren't that compelling to spend so much money now - as the equipment faces a limited lifecycle due to its non-compliancy with the eDRM (AACS/HDCP) standard. But, that is just my feeling...)

My purpose is NOT to try to tell anyone what to do! Nor is my intention to come across as some sort of technoid know it all who is trying to tell you what to do!

I do understand how many are excited about the evolving standards and enhanced capabilities. I am simply playing the curmudgeon - the devil's advocate who is trying to balance the unbridled enthusiasm with a dose of cold reality that the commercial market is NOT telling the public. This other side of the new technology coin is one that has the potential to really come back and bite those who are not aware of it and who cannot afford to duplicate such a large purchase in 2-3 years time. My desire is to simply present the information. And once you are aware of the issues, I will trust that you are capable of making a decision that best suits your situation and your desires.

But, when all is said and done, its your money and your choice. Make a wise decision and Enjoy!

[TBrennan]

I saw The Searchers, The Adventures of Robin Hood and Spartacus in the HD-DVD section at Circuit City the other day. Those pictures are certainly big guns and were enough to get me to decide to buy a HD-DVD player right then and there.

But they had no machine to sell me and now the urge has passed.

[Parrot]

We are still fundamentally limited by the programming.

I can't think of any great movies that I've seen in the past that I would enjoy more now even if it were possible to make them true HD. That's not what movies are about to me. And I certainly don't anticipate many modern-era directors making even reasonably good movies in the future. Most movies in the last decade or two are crap and I anticipate the trend continuing. Crap in HD is still crap, just sharper.

But even as someone not in the slightest bit interested in HD (or maybe because of that lack of interest), I can see that this is an instance in which it is extremely beneficial for a buyer to wait some time for things to settle out and standardize.

[eq_shadimar]

Mas -<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

So many points here but I would like to talk about a couple if we could. First and foremost you cannot lump AACS and HDCP together. They have different functions.

AACS is a copy protection scheme that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray use. It is based on the HD video disc itself and other subsystems. Every single true HD disc player (not upconverting ones) on the market today is using AACS. They are just not using the final version as that has not yet been approved but it is easily upgradeable via firmware. Any HD player has to have AACS built into it (even if it is a PC based drive). There are many different types of DRM that are allowed under AACS. AACS does not care what display that you are using and how the video is getting there. It's only function is to protect the bits on the disc and to check that the playback is happening on an AACS approved device or subsystem. For example Microsoft's DRM scheme is approved by AACS but would never be used in a standalone player. However using the managed copy system video protected by a standalone AACS system could be moved to the PC using the MS DRM system approved by AACS.

HDCP is a total separate copy protection system that deals with the decrypted video stream itself. In other words after the video has already been cleaned and stripped of its AACS protection.

Here is a good example of the different functions. While VGA is not HDCP compliant it is AACS compliant. Therefore the Xbox360 can output 1080p HD video from the HD-DVD addon over the VGA output but only 1080i over the Component output. The Component output is neither AACS or HDCP compliant.

HDCP has been around for at least 3 years (since DVI inputs). Anyone buying a TV today will be getting a HDCP enabled set and that is all they need to worry about. It is the player/streamer/cable box that you need to worry about with AACS.

Now for the ICT or Image Constraint Token. This is a flag that will need to be put on the disc to be active. Currently none of the HD-DVD discs (I don't know about Blu-Ray) have this flag enabled. This means that I can watch any of the HD-DVD's that I buy right now at 1080i to a non protected Component input forever. Once the ICT has started to be used then, per AACS agreements, the discs will have a warning on them that the resolution may be affected by your system setup. Also the resolution will only be taken down to 540p not 480i so still a huge improvement over a standard DVD (not to mention that you will still have all of the interactive features etc.)

Lastly your point that a film has to filmed in HD to take advantage of the new HD technologies is a little misleading. All film stock is already HD and has been since film was invented. The resolution of film is much greater then the HD formats. Perhaps what you meant to say was that care and diligence must be taken in the process to electronically scan the negatives/prints and author in an HD format?

So on to the original question. I think that the Studios have released several heavy hitters. Superman Returns, Batman Begins, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Casablanca, Searchers, etc. Yes there is some fluff released to but overall I am impressed with the depth and variety of titles available so soon after launch. The "big guns" are going to be held in reserve until there is some way that the studios can to a tie in to a movie release or some other promotion to make $$$. I think we will see LOTR, the Matrix, and Harry Potter out mid next year. Star Wars? No idea, look at how long it took Lucas to release them to DVD.

Hope this helps some folks understand everything that is going on.

Laters,

Jeff

[MrMcGoo]

Jeff,

I agree with nearly everything that you say. However, Harry Potter IV with Dolby TruHD is out in the UK and I have a copy as do many folks in the US. Also, Goodfellas is an AFI top 100 movie that Warner brought out on HD DVD. HD DVD does not lack content given the short time it has been out.

Bill

[mas]

Jeff, I don't mean to sound rude, but the point is moot.

I made no attempt to discuss the internal mechanisms of either protocol, as my point was to present a bottom line 30,000 foot point of view - all of your equipment in the signal chain must be compliant with the hardware authentication issues, or you will have a problem. Fact.

It is not necessary for anyone to understand the internals of any of the protocols! What is important is that they understand that unless their equipment is compliant with the protocols, they will have problems as the standards are fully implimented!

The fact that I did not explore the political and economic origins of the standards, their internal mechanisms, nor any other presumed esoteric sociological issues that might be associated with them, etc., does not change the bottom line requirements. ...And simply having the correct connector does NOT provide for any necessary compatibility - aside from the fact that only certain connectors are prerequisite as they are defined and specified in the standards!

In other words, if each component is AACS/HDCP compliant, you will not have a problem.

AACS is 'primarily' oriented toward the consumer 'TV' market via encrypted content.

On the other hand, HDCP is from Intel (and others ) and restricts the playback on computer systems. In other words, your computer video card and your computer monitor must be compliant as well!

Both protocols were included together for the simple reason that they both provide for an 'authentication' trust relationship of components that define the hardware compatibility requirements in both formats! In other words, you don't get around the restrictions by using a PC!

Bottom line, they both achieve the same results and have similar hardware compatibility restrictions! The hardware incorporated must create an authenticated 'trusted path" in order to prevent simply taking the decoded digital out and routing it to a recorder!

And what is this "all film is HD and has been since it was invented"?

Who cares? That is like saying all digital memory is 'HD". The resolution of the image is not determined by the filmstock or memory except in that it can be a limiting factor! Are all MP3, and recorded audio tracks the same - or able to be processed as if they were at the highest resolution? Well, 'sure they are' by your standard, and some will display allot of noise and interpolated data while that which is recorded at the highest resolution will actually sound better. It has to be recorded at the higher resolution for the data to be 'natively' present.Think digital cameras! A 1.6 Megapixel camera image is not the same as a 6 Mpixel or a 10.2 Mpixel image. Just keep enlarging them and tell me they are the same! Or think of various older transfers made from analog recordings that even offer a 'warning' notice that noise may be present!

You are limited by the resolution of the original recording, be it via medium, resolution or by whatever is the weakest link in the system! Remastering a classic Marx Brother's movie will not be at the same resolution as current HD, even if they 'upconvert' and synthesize additional boundary material.

Now all that is lacking here is for someone to come along and say that they 'just bought a new HD recording and it played just fine, therefore 'all of the talk of AACS and HDCP is superfluous', to complete the cycle of confusion... [*-)] And for those reading this who do not know, currently they will play! In the future as the system is implemented ('turned on'), encoded material will not without compliant hardware!

Do we really need to be debating this???? If so, we have many more fundamentals to address!

[Blazemaster]

reply to another poster, yes, I am one of those that picked up the Harry Potter Goblet of Fire from UK and it played flawlessly. Not really into the genre of the movie itself, but wanted to build my HD DVD library so I paid for it. Easily one of the best HD DVD transfer that I've seen so far.

[eq_shadimar]

Mas -

I guess I should have just been more concise with my response. Reading through your posts it seemed like you were trying to warn people that are buying equipment today that there are all these protection schemes that they need to be worried about. I was simply stating that anyone buying equipment today has nothing to worry about as all the protection standards that will be used for the near future are already in all products shipping today. You stated many times that the current HD-DVD and blu-ray players are not AACS/HDCP compliant and current TV's are not HDCP compliant. This is simply not true they are fully compliant and are using both systems today. You also said that people will be pissed to learn that their $5000 tv's are not AACS compliant and would make class action lawsuits. Again the point of my post was to try to explain to people that AACS has nothing to do whatsoever with a TV. It is a content protection scheme only. No TV will ever be AACS compliant because they do not have to be. If I mis-understood what you were saying then I do applogize.

In regards to HD and film you are still not getting my point. You said that "BTW, for a movie to be worth the use of HD technology, it must be filmed in HD. You cannot accurately increase the amount of data contained in the original file, and synthesized approximation is a pretty poor reason to justify HD." My point here was that the resolution of any TV show or movie that was shot on 35mm or larger film stock is greater than "HD". It is the scanning process of those film stocks that needs to done carefully in order to make a proper HD transfer. Restoring and then properly scanning in a classic Marx's Brother movie will most certainly result in an HD image equal to that of any HD camera direct capture. Have you seen the HD-DVD of Casablanca? This is a movie made in 1942 and is hands down some of the best source material seen on my system. It is proof that there is no reason that a good quailty film stock from any era, properly scanned and authored, should look any worse then a film was filmed using HD electronic cameras. You want a HD disc of a movie that was shot using HD cameras that looks worse than Casablanca even though it looks exactly like it was shown in the theaters? Take a look at Miami Vice. People are complaining about all the film grain on this HD disc without realizing that the movie was filmed using HD cameras and the director inserted electronic film grain to get the look he wanted. The image from Casablanca looks much much better than the image from Miami Vice in terms of noise and grain. The point of HD movies is to get us the transfers that are as close to the source material as possible including film grain from the orginal film stock. A HD disc of a film should look like film and not HD video.

Perhaps you were referring to players that upconvert from the SD image on a standard DVD to HD? If that is the case then I agree with you. However to say that film,in general, does not have resolution greater than HD video is incorrect.

In the world of computers yes things are a bit more confusing as the entire chain (OS, video drivers, video card, storage medium) has to be protected and verified. I think it will be 6 months or more before we start seeing any good solutions for using HD-DVD or Blu-ray drives in a homegrown HTPC.

Anyway I agree that people should be informed about all the different standards and how they may affect equipment that they currently have. I disagree with your worries when purchasing any new equipment that is on the market today. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and move on.

Laters,

Jeff

[mas]

Mas -

Reading through your posts it seemed like you were trying to warn people that are buying equipment today that there are all these protection schemes that they need to be worried about. I was simply stating that anyone buying equipment today has nothing to worry about as all the protection standards that will be used for the near future are already in all products shipping today. You stated many times that the current HD-DVD and blu-ray players are not AACS/HDCP compliant and current TV's are not HDCP compliant. This is simply not true they are fully compliant and are using both systems today. You also said that people will be pissed to learn that their $5000 tv's are not AACS compliant and would make class action lawsuits. Again the point of my post was to try to explain to people that AACS has nothing to do whatsoever with a TV. It is a content protection scheme only. No TV will ever be AACS compliant because they do not have to be. If I mis-understood what you were saying then I do applogize.Jeff

You DO need to worry about hardware compliancy!!! With TVs too!

First of all, the first gen HD-DVD player for the XBox is not compliant with the AACS/HDCP hardware trust relationship management system. So I hope most are not planning on using it for viewing commercially recorded HD content when the AACS system goes hot.

MANY of the current PC video cards and the computer LCD monitors are not compliant either.

And many of the TV monitors are not compliant!

With all due respect, I don't care if anyone understands the internals of the standards! What they need to understand are the practical ramifications of hardware components that are not compliant with the COMPLETE standard! And this is not simply a datacentric issue!

You have completely and utterly missed the trusted computing path hardware component in the DRM system! And your definition of the full AACS system is incorrect! You are focusing only on the media centric data encryption and failing to understand the hardware component! Heck, I am forced to be aware of this as we are currently having to deal with it in the InfoSec world in various 'mixed use markets' where secure AV data transmission, archival storage, and HD AV compliancy is required! I wish we could simply specify any TV monitor. It has become a mess as many of the SOX/HIPAA/ISO17799 regulatory compliancy issues are being made much more difficult by this!

With your computer: To enable HD resolution playback of an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray videodisc your monitor, graphics card and the driver you use have to be compatibe with the HDCP standard. Many of the newTFT monitors will feature HDCP support, but some of the newer models and most of the older models do not. Graphics cards are even worse, there is only a handfull of cards out there that sport HDCP support. When your system lacks HDCP compatibility, it will not be possible to play the content in full HD resolution. Future releases of software will be able to play Blu-Ray and HD-DVD movies on a system without HDCP support, but only in standard resolutions. The purchase of a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player will therefore have no added value to a normal DVD player without HDCP.

Also, if you want to check your computer system to see if it is compatible with the system requirements in general, Cyberlink has a program that can help. It is available at: http://www.cyberlink.com/english/support/bdhd_support/diagnosis.jsp

They idea that the player is the only item that is AACS compliant component is meaningless. Oh sure, it has to be able to decode the signal, but you miss the fact that the purpose of the system is not only managed use, but copy protection as well! And the trusted path requires a handshake between 'authenticated' players and display hardware! Otherwise you simply direct the digital HD data stream to any device capable of capturing it and wella!, you have an identical copy! Without successful hardware authentication, a flag is not removed, resulting in a dumbed down 480i output of the HD signal!

Here is an article written last February that states the ramifications of the issue regarding hardware in pretty straightforward terms (since I don't know what I 'm talking about!). Things are evolving, and more units are compliant then were (not!) in February. But the trusted path hardware requirements have not gone away! http://gear.ign.com/articles/691/691408p1.html

People purchasing computer monitors, video cards, and TVs absolutely need to be aware of the hardware compatibility issue whereby they are complint with the hardware trust factors inherent in the standards (if they intend to use the system for future HD recorded content display!!} And most of the video cards, computer monitors and TVs are not yet complaint! THAT is the reason for the delay in the full implementation of the standard!

This message - the heads up - IS important to allot of folks are in the process of buying some very expensive gear! But I am really tired of some here claiming that if they simply ignore the issue that it going away! That is blatantly WRONG! Hardware compliancy requirements have nothing to do with my or anyone else's opinion! It is not a subjective feeling or opinion. It is hard engineering that stands whether you like DRM or not!

So with this, if you want to make a decision based upon personality or feelings, be my guest. If that is where we are in this discussion, I have indeed persisted here too long. In this crazy discussion, I can imagine what an astronaut who travelled to the moon feels like when faced with someone who maintains that the moon landing was simulated on some movie lot or in the desert somewhere in the southwest!

And hence even Dvorak is commenting about the market development specifically related to the non-compliancy of much of the current hardware as well as numerous online sites dedicated to the issue! Folks not aware of the ramifications are in for a suprise! That is my ONLY interest on this site in mentioning the hardware compliancy issues! I am not here to debate the case for or against eDRM! I am one of the crazies who respects the rights of the content owners to manage it in any way they deem fit. Even if I don't like it! But i don't like seeing people I associate with becoming victims due to irresponsible and incorrect assurances that now is the time to buy without doing their due diligence!

But this issue has moved outside of a technical debate. It has moved into the realm of belief. And I suspect that there is no benefit in pursuing an issue on such merits. And this has evolved from a discussion of technical nuances to one of belief in the existence of a standard. If anyone does have real questions regarding this or why I have persisted in saying such (evidently) crazy stuff, please feel free to PM me. Otherwise, I'ze outta here.

[TBrennan]

Huh?