What would be an ideal sub

[Roc Rinaldi]

Here tis.

[TheEAR]

JL subs are nowhere near being ideal. They might sound good, but offering them up as the epitomy of low frequency reproduction is a bit obnoxious.

I can even think of a few alternatives in the same price range that should yield equal if not better performance - not to mention all the DIY designs available. But alas, price point shouldn't even be a factor concerning the absolute best in sound quality and there are plenty of more capable systems out there.

I'm sure the new JL subs are nice, but let's keep some perspective here...

So Ear...when you gonna start posting some measurements? What microphone are you using? [Y]

Ideal,what is ideal ...a huge box? The ideal subwoofer will occupy the least space while producing ample output down deap and not add its own colorations.

You can think of alternatives,go ahead post. RT-12d...no it is not even close. Klipsch THX subs,a bit more output and not the same sound quality,no thanks. Go post away,I know ALL the comercial subs and you better have a real argument,ot else I will disect each one. []

Perspective,yes the thing is this is THE finest subwoofer under $5000,that I got for...$2500. So yes lets keep things in perspective. Mindless output when quality suffers means NOTHING.This is music,now dumbo fake Hollywood explosions.

Measurments? Ha,Craigsub...a very respected AVSforum member made,and agood few. Compared with the best SVS and HSU and...Velodyne have to offer...go check.The f113 is solid to below 16hz,and at an output sufficient to fill a good sized room.Those who complain never heard this sub,far less own it and ...are deaf(partial may fit).

[TheEAR]

Roc,

Good show,just post smaller sizes.A 9000*7000 size ...I the JL logo on the woofer cone filled my entire screen. []

[DrWho]

The ideal subwoofer will occupy the least space while producing ample output down deap and not add its own colorations.

I disagree.

As far as commercial offerings, two that come to mind are TC Sounds' "The Beast" and Tom Danley's "DTS-20". I'm not sure what either of them is selling for, but in my books anything over $3k is pretty much in the same price range. Another product that comes to mind is Eminent-Tech's Model 17...now I know that's insanely priced ($12k), but 4 of any sub aren't going to come close...

I know you don't like DIY so how bout I offer to sell you products from Bentz Audio? [] I bet I could top the JL in every aspect with a $2k price point [6][] Seriously, think of the insane mark up if they're able to sell at 50% off and still make a profit. It's a classic marketing scheme of "set the price high" because it associates value to the name and then sell it at a low price knowing that the audio hobbyists are obsessed with scoring "good deals".

Btw, none of my listed alternatives would be ideal either...

From a sonics standpoint, the ideal reproduction system would have no distortion and a flat power response. For the classical diaphragm type system, this would require a diaphragm that has a different diameter for every frequency being played, while also somehow having infinite surface area (and everything sitting on an infinite baffle). Let's say you choose a realistic diaphragm type system where the diameter doesn't change and is finite in diameter - any decrease in radiating surface area increases frequency modulation distortion (always). Any decrease in surface area decreases the directivity of the system making it more susceptible to placement in a real listening room. Any reduction in the rear cabinet volume reduces the efficiency of the system (thereby making it work harder for the same SPL) which results in a huge slew of nonlinear behaviors: http://www.klippel.de/pubs/default.asp. Any decrease in the baffle size reduces efficiency and introduces diffraction effects. Moving from an infinite baffle to a normal sealed subwoofer introduces a new system of resonance and thus non-linear time domain behavior. I suppose an interesting approach would be an infinite baffle hornloaded subwoofer, but none of them exist as far as I know...

So all that to say, there is no such thing as the ideal. It's a huge system of compromises and everyone is going to make different choices because we all listen to different music and deviations from the ideal are going to have different magnitudes of response depending on the subjectivity of the designer.

...and that's not even getting into the topic of aesthetics, which apparently to the feint of heart is actually a concern []

[TheEAR]

DrWho,

I am inline to buy the TC Sounds TheBEAST. Belive that,there is no replacement for displacement. Danley's DTS20,maybe later,I will have to fit one ...somewhere. I like to see BIG mighty woofers,the Danley is the anti hero super sub. You only have the port,and a tower. []

A huge IB sub system would be nearly ideal,I do not want to have a wall of drivers.One day maybe,when I purchase my own home.Now not an option.

Bentz Audio... why not build your sub(up to 5K)send the sample to reputable reviewers.Gets a glowing review,I will send you a check...you cash it and build my sub. Serious,but before you start it has to look like someting descent,not a uncovered MDF pile of...MDF. [] I can build a superb performing sub too for under 2K.But I am as skilled in finishing as a 999lbs figure skater is nimble on thin ice.

What JL Audio has here is a tremendous performer in a compact package(130lbs compact)and will have one with almost limitless output for a large room (305lbs).I would not call there compromises.As if you start looking for compromises,I can dig you up a ton in Klipsch speakers,and most speakers made.

I would be very surprised if your design bested the JL in sound quality,as in normal listening the larger Fathom is not even pushed much(even with very deep bass).There are many who claim besting,so far all I see is talk. To say you will knock out the champ is easy,to do it itis a whole other thing.

[]

[Roc Rinaldi]

Roc,

Good show,just post smaller sizes.A 9000*7000 size ...I the JL logo on the woofer cone filled my entire screen. []

I'm not a computer guy. How do I change the photo size and to what size do I change it?

[Roc Rinaldi]

OK now let's talk subwoofer placement in a 22 X 21 room. Everybody says something different.

Dr HSU says a corner is good. JL Audio dealer says place it on the main speaker wall between the mains. Second choice in the corner on the main wall. David Griesinger (acoustical engineer) suggests a side wall mid-way down in his paper "Loudspeaker and listener positions for optimal low-frequency spatial reproduction in listening rooms".

I do currenty have two subs but they are quite different and I am not sure that the second sub that I have will actually improve the sound. I have my new JL f 113 (2,500 rms watts) which, of course, is my main sub. I still have my old sub which is a Velodyne C-120 (130 rms watts). The f 113 goes down to either 19 hz or 16 hz depending on who you check with. The Velodyne goes down to 25 hz.

If I only use my f 113 what would be my options on placement? 1st choice, 2nd choice, etc.

If I try to use both subs what would be my options on placement? 1st choice, 2nd choice, etc.

Come on EAR & Dr. Who I know you can help me on this.

BTW, have you two ever heard the song "Why can't we be friends?" by War? I hope that you guys are friends in spite of your differences of opinion. It's OK to be passionate about your beliefs just keep it friendly.

[mas]

You'll have to pardon me on this one. Things were relatively straightforward until you posted this spec!

You are in a nearly square room (and the height is nearly a multiple). Room modes are a mute point here. In other words, the notion of avoiding their affects is a fleeting one! And room modes are going to rule! And no, putting the sub here or there is not going to make an appreciable difference, as no matter where you place it, it is going to stimulate the modes and they will sum. The only difference is which mode is your 'favorite' and whether you want added boundary room gain (wall &/or corner placement).

This may be one situation where you are going to get to play with the 'place the sub in your listening position and crawl around until you find a spot where you like the sound' routine and then place the sub there. (Or you can throw caution to the wind and place it in the corner!)

Good luck.[]

Just Please don't tell me that you have 10 foot ceilings! (8 or 9 ft is already close enough!)

[TheEAR]

Subscribe to ImageShack and post your pics there,its free. And you have links for forums,they will show small pics people can click,and see large ones if they so desire.

Now,I have nothing against DrWHO,Dr Hsu,Dr Feelgood or Dr SubWoofermannn! I simply saw too many claims by people claiming to do better who never did much in ways of...better. I stand by what I said,the JL Audio lineup is the finest of any subwoofer maker and meets and surpasses expectations.Before I see/hear a better sub in this price range and that is remotely compact I will not budge. The JL Fathom lineup is subsonic gold.

A square room...[:'(] Do like Mas pointed,place the sub where you will sit(if possible at ear height...yeah right not a Fathom you say,well the cheaper...lighter Velo)and crawl like a [&] on all fours to find the best bass spot(s). Then place the sub(s) where you hear the ideal response to your ears.

[DrWho]

I am as skilled in finishing as a 999lbs figure skater is nimble on thin ice.

lol, I have the same problem - except I don't weigh 999lbs.... [][]

I would be very surprised if your design bested the JL in sound quality,as in normal listening the larger Fathom is not even pushed much(even with very deep bass).There are many who claim besting,so far all I see is talk. To say you will knock out the champ is easy,to do it itis a whole other thing.

I would be surprised too...if I tried to do it in the same sized cabinet. [] There is just so much you can do when the cabinet gets bigger. I would argue that the only guaranteed advantage of going DIY is the ability to custom fit a larger cabinet such that it's aesthetically acceptable - not to mention the ability to custom tailor the response to the room. It really isn't all that expensive to have cabinets custom built for you (especially if you have the right friends). And if you're extra lazy - all the engineering has been done for you by the driver manufacturer (as the driver will always be optomized for the "recommended enclosure").

[jacksonbart]

I don't get it either.

[DrWho]

OK now let's talk subwoofer placement in a 22 X 21 room. Everybody says something different.

Due to differences in furnishings, listening positions, wall materials, doors, etc.... there really is going to be no way to determine the ideal location - which is probably why everyone says something different. Compound that by the fact that everyone listens to different music with different mains at different SPL's and the differences only become greater.

If you're looking for a few steps to follow, I would start by positioning the mains where they image their best. Then I would start by positioning the subwoofer as close to the corner as possible. If things sound boomy, then you'll want to pull the subwoofer out of the corner, but keeping it against the front wall as much as possible until the boominess goes away. Just keep in mind that most of the change in boominess has to do with changing the modal distribution in the room - not the boundary gain associated with the corner (which in fact is rarely percieved as negative). Don't forget to dial in the sub again everytime you move it around. I put together an article on dialing in by ear since the topic comes up so frequently:
Dial in a Sub by Ear

[Roc Rinaldi]

You'll have to pardon me on this one. Things were relatively straightforward until you posted this spec!

You are in a nearly square room (and the height is nearly a multiple). Room modes are a mute point here. In other words, the notion of avoiding their affects is a fleeting one! And room modes are going to rule! And no, putting the sub here or there is not going to make an appreciable difference, as no matter where you place it, it is going to stimulate the modes and they will sum. The only difference is which mode is your 'favorite' and whether you want added boundary room gain (wall &/or corner placement).

This may be one situation where you are going to get to play with the 'place the sub in your listening position and crawl around until you find a spot where you like the sound' routine and then place the sub there. (Or you can throw caution to the wind and place it in the corner!)

Good luck.[]

Just Please don't tell me that you have 10 foot ceilings! (8 or 9 ft is already close enough!)

My ceiling height is 7' 3".

[Roc Rinaldi]

Subscribe to ImageShack and post your pics there,its free. And you have links for forums,they will show small pics people can click,and see large ones if they so desire.

Now,I have nothing against DrWHO,Dr Hsu,Dr Feelgood or Dr SubWoofermannn! I simply saw too many claims by people claiming to do better who never did much in ways of...better. I stand by what I said,the JL Audio lineup is the finest of any subwoofer maker and meets and surpasses expectations.Before I see/hear a better sub in this price range and that is remotely compact I will not budge. The JL Fathom lineup is subsonic gold.

A square room...[:'(] Do like Mas pointed,place the sub where you will sit(if possible at ear height...yeah right not a Fathom you say,well the cheaper...lighter Velo)and crawl like a [&] on all fours to find the best bass spot(s). Then place the sub(s) where you hear the ideal response to your ears.

I sure hope that you are correct. You may already know that I just bought a f113. (sounds like a jet fighter plane doesn't it?)

Now if I can just get my new A/V controller shipped then I could actually listen to the f113 and not look at it. What a predicament!!

[Roc Rinaldi]

OK now let's talk subwoofer placement in a 22 X 21 room. Everybody says something different.

Due to differences in furnishings, listening positions, wall materials, doors, etc.... there really is going to be no way to determine the ideal location - which is probably why everyone says something different. Compound that by the fact that everyone listens to different music with different mains at different SPL's and the differences only become greater.

If you're looking for a few steps to follow, I would start by positioning the mains where they image their best. Then I would start by positioning the subwoofer as close to the corner as possible. If things sound boomy, then you'll want to pull the subwoofer out of the corner, but keeping it against the front wall as much as possible until the boominess goes away. Just keep in mind that most of the change in boominess has to do with changing the modal distribution in the room - not the boundary gain associated with the corner (which in fact is rarely percieved as negative). Don't forget to dial in the sub again everytime you move it around. I put together an article on dialing in by ear since the topic comes up so frequently:

Dial in a Sub by Ear

Thanks Mike. Soon, I hope so so soon, I will be able to fire up the JL Audio f113 and hear how it sounds. I am seriously considering adding a second f113 but I have promised myself to show some restraint and at least wait until I can hear the first one play. If I wind up with two, then I am considering placing them on the side walls facing each other. I really have serious room constraints so placement options are extremely limited for me. Either side walls or front and rear walls for sub placement.

Just think I could brag "I have two f113s in my subwoofer air force.!"

The final payoff for this long journey is that there will be pictures posted to the forum when I finish this project.