pauln Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Since I was about to relocate my LS (and amps & TT) from the short wall to the long wall, I gave my SETs a rest and put in a SS integrated amp (Pioneer SA-6500) for a few days. Not a great amp, but stangely, I noticed a lot of rumble (but no rumble without the source), either from the TT or from the record surface, not sure which. Anything above about 9:00 on the volume control gave me a significant rumble/noise floor that seemed to overcome the music. Records that were usually quiet were effected. Made a mental note and just listened at real low levels. This evening I completed the LS relocation and put the SETs in play - no rumble or noise at all!!? So my question is, is this suppression of rumble a SET thing, is this a monoblock thing, or is this a tube thing? Anyone experience this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 I thought about that, but the level was too low to even consider feedback (table has never fedback under any conditions) and the frequency band of the rumble does not sound real low, its sort of mid bass range (harmonics?) - well above 50Hz- really sounds like grainy vinyl surface noise but disappears with the SETs. The "equivalent" noise with the SETs is very low in intensity and more up in the midrange, but its virtually unnoticable, even at loud levels. Maybe there is something wrong or aged in the SS.The difference is striking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Same problem with all your records, or just a certain few ? I thought the point that mdeneen brought up is quite interesting, and worth some thought. It's hard for me to believe that the amp is adding the rumble. Maybe a drop of oil on the platter shaft might help.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 "This evening I completed the LS relocation and put the SETs in play - no rumble or noise at all!!? So my question is, is this suppression of rumble a SET thing, is this a monoblock thing, or is this a tube thing? Anyone experience this?" Instinctively I would say none of the above. I might suspect that the Pioneer has a peak somewhere around 50 Hz - not uncommon amongst budget equipment to give the illusion of more bass than it actually has. I dont think the LS on their own are even capable of registering sound at 10 Hz. If there is such a peak - and if it is the cause then the most likely source of the rumble is through the stand your TT is on. A better isolation platform to go between stand and TT would be the probably solution. I have seen this happen before with a pair of 802's which would vibrate wildy with the TT but were fine with a CD player. Installing one of those sandwich isolation platforms stopped the vibration dead. Just a guess - interesting observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 The peak idea might be right, Maxg - the 6500 (entry level '70s) does seem to have a bit of boom in the bass. The last time I used it (didn't notice the noise) the TT was sitting on a very heavy low chest of clothes, now its on a short light marble top table. Maybe the next time I try the 6500 I'll change that and see. I guess I'll keep the 6500 around now that it looks like maybe it is valuable as a "test instrument" for checking differences in how the TT is situated to minimize noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Paul - did you notice the rumble after you repositioned your speakers? When I was recently messing around with repositioning my RF7s, I noticed bass rumble in my TT in certain positions. Move the speakers (in and out from wall and toe-in or toe-out) or get better isolation seems like the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 You might try 'activating' (switch in) the 'subsonic filter' (15 Hz) that Pioneer included on those units designed specifically for this purpose. It may be an effective band-aid to the real problem which would be that of effectively isolating the turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Amplifiers don't have peaks like that. Even cheap ones. Interesting comment. I havent measured them directly - but I have observed very varrying behaviour in amplifiers at the low end of both the frequency spectrum and the price range. It could be that this is not a designed in feature if one were measuring into a constant impedance load but a side-effect of dealing with the changing impedance of a speaker which becomes more noticable in the lower registers. Suffice to say I stand by my observation - even if I am not explaining fully or correctly. To witt: Same system (Heresy's at the time) - amp change from Aiwa to Yamaha (2 models - 492 and 595) to Accuphase to 6550 based 45 wpc PP tube to EL34 35 wpc PP tube to 70 watt ultralinear to 100 watt ultralinear etc etc. First 4 (including the accuphase E211!) show a boost in the 50 Hz range - others dont. The current amps - 150 watt SS and 500 watt digital dont either but I have changed speakers since then.... Dunno Mark - but I dont think you are gonna get resonant frequencies of the arm out of a pair of LS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 The interesting thing is that PaulN is realizing that there is something missing in his topology of choice, SET, that he is trying to obtain from a solid state amp. And to top it off, PaulN is playing LOUDER. What's going on, PaulN? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 The interesting thing is that PaulN is realizing that there is something missing in his topology of choice, SET, that he is trying to obtain from a solid state amp. And to top it off, PaulN is playing LOUDER. What's going on, PaulN? What's missing is the rumble, Parrot; I was just curious about whether others had noticed - specifically if SET, tubes, or mono blocks as a topology might have some resistance to rumble or other kinds of noise. Since the SETs don't over emphasis the low end I thought that might be part of it. The rumble was not super low frequency sounding - it was higher like record grain (but the "same" sound on the SETs is much higher in pitch and virtually abscent. Maybe I threw eveyone off by calling it rumble as I think it was more likely to be overaccentuated record groove noise - even a dead clean groove has a breath to it that is faint to missing on the SETs, same sounded really loud with the SS. Yes, I admit I am playing louder. I can't help it - it sounds so good. My La Scala have still yet to pass their first 1 watt since I've had them... I'm getting up to the high 90's dBs on the highest peaks (to me that is LOUD) with the SET volume a little short of half way and neither the system nor the room are showing any distress at all. Part of why I am listening louder with the SETs is because of something I noticed with the SS. Basically, the same measured SPL sounds much more intense with the SETs than the SS. The SS seems to hold the energy of the sound rather distributed throughout the whole presentation and reminded me of systems from college - it was easy to gauge how loud the whole thing really is, but with the SETs the sound energy seems to be far more concentrated in the individual instruments - the effect is that it is difficult to gauge the level and it sounds much louder. The other night I had the CSN&Y on the SETs and needed to attend something in the litchen. I turned it way down low (since I wouldn't be in there to hear it anyway), did the deed in the kitchen, and when I returned to the listening room my thought was this really sounds loud!? So I don't think I'm listening as loud as I "thought" - I'm listening louder now and liking it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Being a SET lover myself why do I always feel like I'm in Dacau whenever the Parrot's around[] My bet is with isolation, get the vibe out of the groove man[H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 I turned it way down low (since I wouldn't be in there to hear it anyway), did the deed in the kitchen, and when I returned to the listening room my thought was this really sounds loud!? I've done the deed in the kitchen too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipsch4life Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 You didn't "strain' anything, did you Paul??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Seems like alot of Master Baiters around here..................EH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 What...............No retort.................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 If he did you know it was push pull and not SET[] See Paul, I got a light side about it[A] OBOBOB[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I can't help myself sometimes Kaiser, it just jumps out.............................[][6][:$] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Got to give up today and go get my boys Rob because it don't look like I'm going to catch your post # and for sure I'm not going to touch Bob today as he seems to be burning down one side[] Have a great weekend and hug someone you love or if want to hug somebody you don't love and watch their expression[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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