Bi-wiring Belles?

[jazman]

mobile,

Not to worry. I am not in anyone's camp at this point and realize more than anyone that I have too much to learn before feeling comfortable with a big ticket purchase. Not only does the power side of things require study, there's the preamp, and in most cases a phono stage. I do however want to hear the opinions and impressions of those who actually own and use the hardware, not just the reviewer. Colin has a listening environment very similar to mine,(mine is 25'lx18'w and 23" wide at second fl with 20' ceiling), and a low cost DIY kit that provides good value and learning experience. The HF-81 is perfect for me now because it addresses my needs for power, control, phono input, a base for learning tubes as well as what goes inside the box.

So mobile, how will I be able to tell if the valves are bad? Did you see the mods/replacements the seller has done? He said he has tested everything and it works fine. He uses 2 HF-12's and 1978 vintage Hereseys currently and has used other 6BQ5 tube amps. He does not have the owners manual for the HR-81 and I probably won't get the HF-81 in my hands before the end of next week if I'm lucky. The same delivery time frame goes for the AH!Tjoeb. In the mean time I will gladly read Jeff Lessards DIY amp. The name seems to be a tribute to Horace Silver. Ok, back to the reading for me.

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

mobile,

The HF-81 is due to arrive Thursday. Here's what the seller had to say.

"This one has had several minor cap and resistor upgrades from stock. Caps used include Vitamin Q, Sprague Orange Drops, Cerafine, and Panasonic polypropylene. Several key "in signal" resistors have been replaced with metal film resistors."

What are your suggestions, if any, for upgrading this unit with sweeter tubes?

Should I look for another HF-81 to insure original parts availability like I would when restoring an auto?

I've found a site that has tube layout, but that's about all. Would you be willing to have a copy shop reproduce any user/repair manuals you have if I reimburse you for your time and the expense?

BTW, analogue update. Located a Rega 3 TT. Best I can do I think with my limited budget. You can email me direct if you prefer.

Klipsch out.

[mobile homeless]

I'll drop you an email...

New Years Resolutions for me?

After a tempestuous 2.5 month membership to ye olde Klipsch Forum and an insanely bloated 208 posts by yours truly, New Years Resolution #5 is to avoid said forums a majority of the time and actually get some work done while on this hellbox.

Of course, one cant quit cold turkey...and at least I have narrowed my forums down to two or three Klispch, the SET Asylum, Tube Asylum, and High Efficiency Asylum...still far too many...but...an addiction it is.

As for the Eico HF-81, I do have two units as well but wait till you get the first one to see what's up. Did you go to the Eico page I did? I have one that is not finished but has many pages with pics, circuit layout with pics, upgrade options, tube suggestions, manual links, the first stages of a review, cleaning tips, refinishing tips, etc.

See: http://12.16.160.65/eico_hf-81/

visit the "Tweaks" page along with both review pages. The Links page has a dozen or so sites connected with the EICO and parts etc. Most of the pics on the review pages link to full size pics as well.

- Kelly

ps - as for the TT, what is your budget? I like the Rega arms better than the tables. Perhaps I can help here as well.

[soundog]

mobil homeless -

Thanks for the great EICO pages - sure brings back memories - I built a HF61 mono-preamp which I used with an HF30 amp which I also built. Later I built the HF85 stereo preamp and another HF30 as a teenager in the 50s. I also had University speakers I built from kits including a 15" dual voice coil woofer that I used as a "sub" {wasn't called that then) for both channels. Was always sorry I traded "up" only to lose everything when my Greenwich Village duplex was burglerized. Anyhow you have inspired me - I think I'll try to get some old EICO stuff off of ebay to play with next year. Am I regressing?

------------------

Soundog's HT Systems

[jazman]

mobile,

My TT budget was really zero to VERY limited.($400)Considered doing nothing until I found someone willing to sell me their used Rega 3 with RB300 arm with Elys cartridge for a tad under the $400, $392.50 to be exact. An affordable upgrade, though not ultimate. Income tax refund time will present the opportunity to start looking for "The One" to keep, so email those recs. I don't have a problem with mltiple TT's in the house, I've got three systems, soon four.

The information you've provided on the HF-81 is incredible! To paraphrase from "The Matrix", ..."everything a body needs". It definitely seems the prior owner was on the right path with some upgrades. Tomorrow is "D" day, HF-81 due. I'm glad I was around to benefit from your participation on this site.

BTW, if you do decide to sell your Moondogs, give me a shout first. I will revise my budget.

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

Mobile,

First, I must say a HUGE Thank You to you and all of the contributing members of this thread. I have connected the HF-81. What a difference the amp makes! Did I say what a huge difference the amp makes?

Ok, I wont repeat it again. For all those who dont believe that quality low wattage tube power can make a difference, I can say that Im truly blown away with the difference in the sound from my Belles. I preceded connecting the HF-81 with playing a CD of acoustic Jazz (Joe Henderson so near, so far). Played it after connecting. WOW! Theres so much more music to be heard. The instruments are rich and alive. The sound fills the room with warmth. I could babble on and on. Mobile, you are correct about this combination of tubes and Heritage line! Lookout world, Ill be selling all my other speakers to add a pair of Cornwalls and Klipschorns, using tube power. Thanks to mobile also for the HF-81 tip. Im so happy with what it has done for my speakers. It may be the best $200 Ive ever spent. Im presently listening to Terrence Blanchard, Lets Get Lost with female vocalists Diana Krall, Jane Monheit, Dianne Reeves, and Cassandra Wilson. It will be hard to leave home when I have music like this playing inside.

edster,

The upgrade tubes with the AH! Tjoeb(Amperex 7308) are recommended by Kevin as a less expensive upgrade than Bugle Boy. I think Kevin will only sell BBs to you if you by your player from him. I have order two matched BB's from Richardson Electronics based on your rec and a review posted on the Upscale site. Of course I will play the 7308's before inserting the new tubes.

Klipsch out.

This message has been edited by jazman on 12-29-2001 at 04:24 AM

[jazman]

Here are some extracts from recent postings I've made to other posts on this site, all relating to my quest to improve the sound quality of my 1975 Belle Klipsch;

HF-81 Updates

........."To say I'm all smiles is an understatement. This amp has completely transformed the quality of the sound of music from my Belles. I don't think anyone could blindly A B the ss 100 wpc Nak, vs the 14 wpc HF-81, and not pick the HF-81 as more of everything. A dramatic difference!" (from Amp match for La Scala's ? On a Budget)

Lyle,

Take the plunge to throw out your past ideas about amp power sources and treat yourself to some tube power. Since Belles and LaScalas are so close in design, you will certainly be pleasantly surprised if as not blown away with the result as I have been.

........"I'm still in a pleasant state of awe of this HF-81. I can't believe how tight and full this makes the Belles sound. I feel no need for a sub at this point, as many sugggest I will need to, as the bass bottom is very defined and tight. I'm sure most would not believe how good this vintage piece is, but I can't say enough.

I have already ordered new EL84's, the Ei Yugo and Sovtek matched quads from Triode Elec. to roll the Tesla EL84s(unmatched,3and 1) to experiment with what my ear reports from each. Also planning to add new rectifiers, probably NOS from Tube World. May get present B&O TT connected to test inputs tonight or tomorrow while waiting for the Rega to arrive.

(Amp match for La Scala's ? On a Budget)

This continuation of my post is not intended as the magic potion for all Klipsch speaker ills, but a chronicle of the path I have chosen to pursue, along with any perceived benefits. Thus far my Belles are still stock, while their sound characteristics have become exceptional.

Klipsch out

[jazman]

Mobile,

I'm on a roll. The phono inputs are working. It's going to be a vinyl New Years Eve.

Happy New Year to all!

Klipsch out.

PS. Noticed slight hum from right channel with TT idle. May not have noticed before when idle in AUX. More listening time required using the additional inputs. Still sounds great overall.

This message has been edited by jazman on 01-01-2002 at 12:35 AM

[jazman]

soundog,

Troubleshooting did lead me to regrounding which helped, but swapping cartridges was the solution. Damn, I hate that,.... The one I swapped of course isn't as good sound wise as the one sending the hum, but beats not listening to vinyl. The Rega planar 3(used), hopefully will arrive the first of next week with a decent cartridge in place if it does not get damaged in shipment.

Good fortune continues to smile my way so far. Sooner or later there will be a gotcha. I already know I'm going to eliminate all of the mismatched tubes and replace them with near as possible NOS tubes used when this thing was designed. Something this old, this good deserves it. All of that to say that the large gush of wind you just heard, was the sound of future cash leaving my pocket for matched vintage tubes from Tube World to achieve that original sound as close as I can get it.

Boys and their toys!

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

The answer to my bi-wire question was pretty much as outlined by mobile homeless. The Belles respond to what's upstream. Here's the conclusion to the purchase of the Eico HF81 as part of my solution to extract sweet, rich sound from my Belles.

(a copy of my post to Shapeshifter in the 2 channel Forum)

shapeshifter,

Inspired by your post, I got busy with my HF81 tonight to chase the hum. I removed all rolled tubes, did some eyeball and hand inspection, discovered several loose tube sockets which I tightened, several shots of air in all sockets, reinserted pulled tubes, replaced all remaining unrolled tubes with Mullard 12AX7s, and wallah,... hum is bye bye. Sound is better than ever and I haven't even used the Mullard EZ81 rectifiers yet.

After initial connection, though the sound was very good, I knew it could get better because only a few of the tubes were brand or model matched. For immediate output tube help, I opted for the EI Yugo EL84's,(on sale). The HF81 had unmatched Teslas when I bought it. Wanted best rectification I could get, opted for NOS Brimar EZ81/6CA4, then Mullard NOS 12AU7s, now Mullard NOS 12AX7s. I have four Mullard made EL84 output tubes on the way after some cautious ebay shopping, but the EI Yugo EL84 tubes have been a very pleasant surprise. The prior owner had completed cap and other upgrades before I purchased it. He spent virtually no money on quality tubes. After my tube upgrades, this EICO sounds magnificent. I plan to pull my NOS tubes eventually and replace with less costly Mullard, Telefunken, and Bugle Boy tubes manufactured with other brand names screened on them. One of the nicest things about the HF81 is, the tubes used in it are readily available, and at many different price and quality levels.

The Eico HF81 is currently driving my 75 Belles, connecting a Rega P3 turntable with RB300 tonearm/Elys cartridge; and an AH!Tjoeb 99 CD player. I will take it off line soon, to be replaced by the Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs I recently purchased. I think I've finally found the last piece of that setup, a decent preamp, and within my budget. At that point I will give the HF81 maybe a week of rest for a complete cleaning, face plate shinning, etc, then it's back on line driving a pair of 1980 Cornwalls.

This post is a bit long winded because it is also an update and near conclusion to one of my first post, Bi-wiring Belles. That post was done to find ways to extract the rich sound I knew was hidden within my 75 vintage Belles, that my 100 plus watts of SS amp was not delivering to my ears. This HF81 is a mere 14 wpc, but it delivers the goods! The Rega 3 and Ah!Tjoeb 99 also contribute, but not as much as the HF81. This is also another Thank you to mobile homeless for his many suggestions, advice, and prodding along this upgrade path. I believe I'm almost there, knowing fully, no one is ever really...THERE. There's always one more piece to be upgraded. Yeah, like my cartridge.............

Klipsch out.

[mobile homeless]

Edmond, you're welcome. I have really enjoyed following your purchases! It's great when they work out like that, especially the purchase of a vintage piece which is always a bit of a gamble.

Well, when I saw that original post of yours and the naming of the Nakamichi and Crown devices, I knew I had to strike QUICK! Heh... Seriously, I knew that very few people would be familiar with that esoteric and rather rare Nakamichi 600 "Wedge" amplifier or even the Crown preamp, which is more noted for pro use. Knowing both those companies very well after owning examples of their equipment (Nak tape decks and Crown for bands and Radio Station), and hearing your love for acoustic jazz, I knew you were the perfect candidate for something like the EICO which is one of the best first tube amps I can think of as it contains almost ALL the magic of the very best designs at an unbelievably low cost. I got a kick out of your response to it as well as Shapeshifter's great experience. You NEVER see those reactions to mediocre $200 solid state (or ever HIGH DOLLAR solid state, to be honest).

Cant wait to see how the Cary and Moondogs do. Jazman just picked up an early Cary SLP-90 that is so beautiful, who CARES what it sounds like! Actually, I heard the unit years ago and it sounded very nice. He got a GREAT deal on the beast. TAke a look.

It is a tube rectified line stage with 12AX7 and 12AU7 as a cathode follower. Tube rectification is provided by 6CA4 or the EZ-81, in other words, the very same tubes that provide rectification for the EICO HF-81. Indeed, this unit actually uses ALL the same tubes (besides the EL-84 outputs). I believe it has been tweaked with oil caps but am not sure.

Hope it works out! Now you just need a phono preamp or did you opt for the ASUSA? Ole Jazman is going to have enough exposed tubes to take place of his forlorn fireplace!

Have fun spinning the jazz!

kh

[jazman]

mobile,

I'm certainly glad you struck quickly. And yes I did get the neat little slightly modified ASUSA PP1. I felt that if the guy (Tutay), could tweak $10,000 plus Air Tight gear, he must have found some things he liked about it (PP1), and should be able to get something extra out of it. It's also a nice looking little unit. Too bad I didn't save a copy of the ad with picture. I'll see if the seller can send a pic so I can post it.

Now I must allow my pockets time to rest and recover, but think I've assembled the components of a decent 2 channel audio system. It was accomplished for the most part with some fine used components, the phone stage being the only completely new piece of hardware.

Here's the list without prices, but I'm willing to tell if anyone wants to send an email request. The cost was less than might be expected.

1975 Belle Klipsch

EICO HF81, now stocked with lucious NOS tubes

AH!Tjoeb 99 CD player, Bugle Boy 6922 tube upgrade

Rega Planar 3 TT, RB300 tone arm with Elys cartridge

Then;

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs w/upgrade package, w/o KRs

ASUSA PP1 (modified) Phono stage

Cary Audio SLP90L Preamp, w/premium tubes & oil cap upgrade, just completed shipped to factory checkup.

The Cary preamp will not arrive until next week, with my target to bring everything on line with the Moondogs by the following weekend. The EICO will then move to power 1980 Cornwalls.

It's now as exciting to listen to music, if not more, as it is to watch a movie on the HT setup here at the homestead.

KLF-20 front

KLF-C7 center

RS3-II surround

KSW-15 sub

KSW-12 sub

55" 16x9 Mitsubishi

Yamaha RXV 795

Toshiba SD-3105

Dish Network Dolby Digital receiver

Long live the Jazz LP!

(It's time to listen to Billy Harper.)

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

Here's a link to view the phono preamp that will be part of this 2 channel system. Let me emphaize that I am not endorsing or promoting this product in any way.

Chrome modified Phono preamp

Tom Tutay of Transition Audio has fine tuned the Riaa circuitry on this already very nice sounding usa built tube phono section. this phono section uses 3 12ax7s, point to point wiring, gold rca jacks and nice quality parts and power supply. It has a switch to defeat the riaa curve for early records. This preamp has about 47 db of gain and will drive most any cartridges, except for very low output moving coils.

Klipsch out

This message has been edited by jazman on 01-25-2002 at 03:19 AM

[Mike Lindsey]

Very nice systems, indeed! I can't see the picture of the phono stage because the server is busy. I'm sure it's going to sound incredible when you have it up and running...

Mike

------------------

My Music Systems

[jazman]

I can't believe I just lost my whole post but I'll try again.

Tonight I decided not to wait any longer to hear the Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs I'd purchased even though the Cary SLP90L preamp is due to arrive later today according to FedEx. The modified PP-1 has been here for several days. The 3 Chineese 12AX7 tubes were immediately rolled for 3 vintage Apmerex 12AX7 tubes. It's been powered on and waiting to be put in service. The Moondogs are given power and time to warm up as I prepare dinner for my son and I. After dinner, the Rega 3 turntable is moved to the Moondogs component shelves.

After three LP's, I'm all smiles on the outside, totally excited inside my soul, and ready to listen to music all night long, but I know I can't because I have to get up at dawn.

This is what mobile has been talking about folks. SET amps, Heritage horns, and vinyl. What an incredible formula. The Moondogs, the Belles, the Rega 3 and the PP-1 make music together. Miles, Coltrane, Cannonball, Wayne Shorter, Branford Marsalis, have never sounded so good, and I've been using Klipsch speakers for many years though I've never owned Belles. As good as this is now, it's going to get even better when the Cary is added, the Tjoeb99 with new matched Amperex Bugle Boy 6922 tubes, premium cables because I believe that if better cabling increases computer network reliability, ....you get the picture. RCA 2A3 Black plates coming soon to help in the output department.

Achieving tonight's music experience is what this post

was about. The Moondogs are clearly a new level of amplification for me, which combined with the other components has completed a two channel system that will satisfy my ears for many years to come. Thanks Kelly for all of your help and, all the other members of this Forum. I could babble on for hours and days to come, and probably will, but I want to hear one more cut before I sleep.

Long live vinyl!

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

Also posted in "Welbourne Labs...jazmans amps"

Hey forum,

All the dots have been connected. I finally have a very respectable 2 channel audio system. The Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs are making wonderful music as I write this. It's taken a couple of months, but worth all the agonizing, net surfing, reading, cross referencing, late night sessions on the computer, lots of luck, advice from mobile. I don't think anything I say can truly express how good this system of components sounds. That's the good news. It's all connected. The other news, instead of bad news is,... there's more to be done.

1. Upgrade most of the interconnect cables.

2. Roll the tubes that arrived with the Cary to more stately offerings. The present Sylvania 6CA4s most go. Mullards most likely replacement since I have some new ones.

3. Upgrade to a MC or a different MM cartridge instead of the Rega Elys.

4. Roll the Sovtecks for RCA 1943 2A3 Black plates. Yea mobile, would you believe I found them new, in their time worn boxes, on ebay?

5. One day in the future, add my Akai Reel to Reel deck.

For tonight however, it's Jazz LP after LP. I don't care how many trips I make to the turntable. Vinyl rules in my household. And yes, vinyl really IS the sound, especially with these components. Mobile knows what I'm talking about! 2 CHANNEL SOUND! Moondogs are abolutely delicious amplifiers!

Klipsch out.

PS. I forgot to say how beautiful, yes I said BEAUTIFUL the components in the system are. Just go back and review mobile images of the Moondogs, the Cary, the PP-1. It takes the Rega and the Tjoeb in their basic black attire to keep it from being a system you would only display and never play.

1975 Belle Klipsch

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs

Cary SLP90L Preamplifier

Asusa modified PP-1 Phono preamplifier

Rega 3 turntable, Rega 300 tonearm; Elys cartridge

AH!Tjoeb99 CD Player

[mobile homeless]

Man, sounds frighteningly good. Hell, I wish I could hear the gear on the Belles.

Dont be too harsh on the Sylvania EZ-81. You know, those tubes are probably not bad at all; in fact, they are probably pretty good and nothing to throw to the curb. You have a pair of Mullards in the EICO. Just do a comparison between the two types and see how it goes. You might be surprised.

Let us know how it goes... Keep us informed here... Klipsch out? Seems like it's Klipsch in for all practical purposes.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-02-2002 at 04:52 AM

[jazman]

mobile,

Cary SLP90L updates.

I still have the two 1960 Brimar 6CA4 tubes in the HF81. My two never used NOS Mullard 6CA4s have been rolled into the Cary to replace the Slyvania 6CA4s. I think it is an improvement.(I have additional Mullard 6CA4s for the HF81.)

Regarding the 4 12AU7As in the Cary.

The current 12AU7As are branded "Gold Aero", have a gold colored top, gold script and letering, and "made in germany" printed on them. Brendan at Tube World has not heard of them. Have you? I have '58 RCA Black plate 12AU7s which I plan to roll in unless you feel the Gold Aeros are better. Eventually hoping for NOS Mullards, Telefunkens.

Moondog update.

I'm cleaning the '43 2A3 RCAs.(Globes and posts)Plan to roll these sometime early this week.

I had two friends stop by this weekend to help move a shelf case system to the my sons room on 2nd floor. Of course their payback was freshly brewed beer from the local brewpub, snacks, and listening to some jazz. Both have a large collection of jazz. One used to sell stereo gear and Klipsch speakers. Both left saying it was the most "revealing" system they had experienced.

I will add getting some pics done for posting on my to do list.

Klipsch out.(Music's in.)

This message has been edited by jazman on 02-04-2002 at 04:50 AM

[mobile homeless]

I just lost my whold damn post.... and I am too brain damaged to rewrite...christ... give me a bit.

kh

[jazman]

mobile,

I know that frustration. One rather late night when trying to post, I inadvertently hit shift-spacebar instead of shift right arrow to highlight some test I wished to edit. Being very drowsy I hit escape to remove the highlight, poof, the whole post went bye bye. Take your time, it's not urgent.

Klipsch out.