KG5.2 repair advice needed.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

I bought my KG5.2's new in 94 and my son cooked one the first time in 99, when I could still get the K-1001-K from klipsch. He cooked one again in 2003 but I replaced the speakers with some AS-F2's and a KSW-12 Sub and put the 5.2's in storage. I got them out the other day to fix them , but found out that the K-1001-K is no longer available. Klipsch refered me to http://www.partsexpress.com. The closest thing they have to my 10 inch woofers are these (
Goldwood GW-10PC-40-8 10" Heavy Duty Woofer)

Would these work as a drop in, without any other changes? Do I need 8ohm or 4ohm? I dont want to mess with the crossovers unless I need to (or unless I can roll off the treble a little), But I can if I have to.

Is there a recommended compression driver upgrade for the horns? Do the newer Titanium ones sound better? What is their impeadance?

Can anyone give me the diagram of the crossovers? I would appreciate it. What are the slopes and crossover frequencies of my networks?

I would like to repair and or upgrade these speakers and put them back into use. The light OAK veneer is in fine condition.

[STL]

Since Klipsch cannot supply you with a replacement woofer, then I'd ask them for the specs of the driver. Without a good set of specs, you're really just taking a shot in the dark on finding a comparable driver. Once you get some spes, you might also checkout www.madisound.com and/or watch eBay (because I've seen a K-1001-K listed several times in the past). Besides lining the backsides of the horn lens with rope caulk, I'd leave them well enough alone. The crossover probably has 3rd order HP and a 2nd order LP sections, but here again Klipsch might be kind enough to supply with with a schematic if you ask. Also do a search here because someone might have already posted it.

[HarryO]

You might post a "Wanted to buy" for the woof. There may be one around. Also, you can contact Jim or Mike at www.circuitshop.com at 1-800-593-0869. They can rebuild yours probably for less than you could replace it for.

I recommend them highly. They do a lot of work for me.

Harry

[STL]

HarryO,

Do they use Klipsch parts for the rebuild? If not, then wouldn't that change the specs of the driver? I'm fairly certain it would, but how much I'm not sure.

Rickster-Atlanta,

Even if you find a driver that is pretty close to the original specs, you probably want to buy two and replace the woofer in both units (so any slight change to the sound with be consistant across both speakers). I helped a fellow poster here find some (non-Klipsch) replacement woofers for some KG4s a couple years ago, and from what he said they were good replacements. But as I said before, you need the specs on the K-1001-K driver.

[STL]

Also keep in mind (when looking around eBay) that the K-1001-K woofer was used in the KG4.2, KG4.5, and KG5.2.

Note: I just discovered the old Klipsch parts price list I have is not
completely correct. It was listing the same woofer for all those KG
models, but I've found enough evidence to confirm the that both the
KG4.2 and 4.5 actually use the K1005-K woofer.

[HarryO]

"Do they use Klipsch parts for the rebuild? If not, then wouldn't that change the specs of the driver? I'm fairly certain it would, but how much I'm not sure."

I'm not sure exactly what they use. That's why I left the phone # also. Mike will probably be in the shop in the morning. Give him a call.

Harry HarryOstereo in Indianapolis if you want to drop my name. Might give me a couple extra "Brownie Points".

[Rickster-Atlanta]

Thanks for the Advice,

Yes I will replace the speakers with a matching pair.

I have both of the bad drivers, but at this time, I don't plan on having them repaired.

I came across the diagram of the crossovers this morning in the forums, and I was able to come up with some numbers.

The crossover freq is 1,000 hz, the impedance of the horn driver and woofer are 8 and 4 ohms.

And yes STL you were right (3rd order HP and a 2nd order LP). I have heard of the rope caulk horn treatment in these forums before but haven't really considered it.

Now at least I have basic info on replacing the woofers. I realize however that the speakers will never be exactly like they were, but I do feel that substituting the woofers will at least be a USABLE compromise, all tho it may not be PERFECT. Also the market isn't exactly flooded with 4 ohm 10" woofers to choose from.

I have requested the specs on the driver from Klipsch. Sensitivity, frequency range, and whatever else they have. Maybe this will help me narrow my search from what is actually available.

Does anybody have any idea how the 2 and 4 ohm resisters affect the crossover? The 4 ohm is in series with the coil on the high pass. And the 2 ohm is in series with the capacitor on the low pass. I have included the diagram.

Thanks Guys.

KG-5%202.pdf

[STL]

If you can get the specs from Klipsch, you should be a able to find a replacement driver that makes the speakers more than just usable. In fact, I would say the average listen would never even know the difference. Are you the woofer is 4 ohm? With the overall speaker having a nominal impedance of 8 ohm, I wouldn't think the woofer would have that low of an impedance. As for specs, what you need are the Theile and Small parameters. If we knew the Fs, Qts (and/or the Qes and Qms), Vas, Re, Xmax, and Sensitivity it would go a long way towards finding a good replacement driver.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

I went over the known values from the diagram using formulas I found on the net.

The 2nd order Low pass for the woofer is the easyest one to calculate. The only numbers that work out with 28ufd and 1mh, are 4 ohms and 1000 hz.

I just recieved a reply from klipsch and this is what they said:

Here is all I have on the K-1001-K
Fs ( Fo) 28 Hz
Re 3.5 ohms 4 nominal
Qe 0.31
Qt 0.29
Vas 111.5 Liter = (3.9 cubic ft)
92 dB
BL 9.5 TM
42.5 g moving mass

You may want to check with www.woofer.com about
possible repair

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I searched through some sites that sell speakers, and I can find a couple of good matches, but the speakers are 8 ohms.

I havent found anything that matches in 4 ohms, there is far less to choose from.

Thanks again.

[STL]

These might work:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-605

The impedance is good (with the dual 8 ohm coils in each in parallel) as is the sensativity. The Fs is a bit higher but the Vas is also a bit lower -- so those might even each other out. The Qts is also higher, but the value indicates the driver should still work well in a third-order enclosure.

[STL]

If you give me the internal volume of a KG5.2 -- or the exterior measurements -- then I can run some simulations and see how the response curves differ.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

Hi STL,

I will measure the cabinet internals when i get home tonight.

I checked out the driver you mentioned, I am concerned about the Fs, Vas, the voice coil diameter and the weight of the magnet. It doesn't actually list the magnet weight, but its only 4 inches in diameter and the over all wt of the driver is a little light compared to the original and another driver that I'm looking at.

This driver : http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&category%5Fname=1000209&product%5Fid=55%2D1555

Power Capacity: 100W/200W RMS/peak Sensitivity: 92dB (W/M) Impedance: 8ohm Re: 6.2ohm Le: 1.78mH Frequency response: 30Hz~4KHz Fs: 30Hz Qts: 0.33 Qes: 0.35 Qms: 5.24 Vas: 116.74 (liters) Xmax: 1.5mm

Is almost a perfect match, 2 inch voice coil, 43 oz magnet, rubber surrond, the same Fs and Vas and sensitivity, and very close Qes and Qts. The problem is that is it 8 ohms.

I would like to use this driver and rebuild the low pass filters on the networks, For about 10 bucks a speaker, I can replace the coil and capacitor with the working values for the 8 ohm speaker. I know Al Klappenberger from a few years ago, and I have sent him a message with my propossed plan to get his opinion.

Thanks for your continued help, and I will get back to you.

[STL]

Have you measured the VC diameter on the K-1001-Ks? I'd be surprised if it is 2". The dual 8-ohm coils in the one I listed will help with power handling. I see it's rated in RMS power handling about the same as the driver you have listed. Also be aware that just changing the coil and cap to make the xover work with and 8-ohm driver might not be all you need to do since the tweeter was setup to match levels with a 4-ohm woofer. I suspect that 92dB W/M spec is 1W into 8-ohms and not into 4-ohms (which is likely how the OEM driver is spec'd). Also the Xmax on the driver you listed is pretty bad -- actually I'd call it horrible. Also, I'm not all that trusting of specs when the driver doesn't even have a brand name (like that MCM one). Audax is well known and has been around a long time, so I feel they are being honest with the numbers they publish.

If you have trouble getting an accurate interior measurement, just measure the outside because I already know the wood is 0.75" thick and that the front baffle is recessed another 0.25" or so. Once I run some simulations we can both get a better idea.

Have you asked the guy that recones the drivers if he is using Klipsch parts? I suspect he's not, and I have to think that going to change the specs of the driver.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

The tube at the bottom of the woofer cone is 2 inches.

The cabinet dimensions are 33.5" x 14.75 x 12.75".(outside dimensions) I'm guessing about 3 cubic ft.

I did contact the guy klipsch referred me to, and from the message he left on my machine, I don't think I will call on his services. No he doesn't have the exact parts. And he wants more money than what its going to cost me to replace them.

I do have one working speaker with the original driver. I have a signal generator, a meter, a microphone and an an analyzer program for my pc. I could if I need to tweek the crossovers or add Lpad attenuation to achive the same signal levels at a given Frequency.

[STL]

I must not have been thinking clearrly because:1) I could have gotten the exterior dimension of the speaker from Klipsch's website and 2) I forgot to mention that I also need some specs on the passive radiator. Ideally, the specs I need are Fs, Mm, Qm, Sd, and Xmax. If Klipsch cannot supply them, don't fret because I think I have a work-around that I could still allow me to run some simulations.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

Hi STL, Can you to run the specs on this speaker also if you don't mind.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-322

Specifications: * Power handling: 140 watts
RMS/270 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 1-1/2" * Le: 1.4 mH *
Frequency response: 40-2,500 Hz * Re: 3.8 ohms * Magnet weight: 40 oz.
* Fs: 45 Hz * SPL: 92.7 dB 2.83W/1m * Vas: 1.12 cu. ft. * Qms: 4.50 *
Qes: .45 * Qts: .40 * Xmax: 3.55mm * Net weight: 7-1/3 lbs. *
Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 10-1/4", Cutout Diameter: 9-1/8",
Mounting Depth: 4-3/8", Magnet Diameter: 4", Magnet Height: 1-1/4".

I'm going to have to Email Klipsch for the Passive specs, I will do that right now.

[STL]

I'll do that one too...once we get some PR specs. I see this Goldwood speaker is even further off then the one I suggested. Its Fs and Qts are even higher, and its Vas is lower than the K-1001-K. Not to mention is has less Xmax than the one I suggested; it also has a 1.5" VC like the one I suggested. So is it the power handling that you're getting so hung up on? You do realize that many -- and I might even say most -- speakers are actually blown from having not enough power (for the volume the listener wants) rather than by overpowering, right? A lot of people (that blow speakers) crank their amps so high that they end up distorting and clipping the output and that's what actually kills the speaker. Many speakers will do fine being driven with more power than they are rated as long as the signal is very clean, but when you start feeding speakers with distorted/clipped signals their actual power handling rating take a nose dive. I don't have any experience Goldwood speakers, but for some reason I get the impression they are the Pyramid brand of home audio -- and that's not a good thing. Anyhow, I'll check it out as well...

[STL]

Here are some more specs on that Audax driver:

http://www.hautparleur.fr/_audax/ht240z0.pdf

[Rickster-Atlanta]

STL,

I am still waiting for some numbers on the PR.

Check out this speaker, and I am considering getting the matching passive radiators and changing them too.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-485&scqty=2

Specifications: *Power Handling: 80 watts
RMS/120 watts max *VCdia: 1.5" *Le: 1.2 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms per coil
*Re: 3.10 ohms *Frequency range: 30-1,500 Hz *Fs: 25 Hz *SPL: 92.7 dB
2.83V/1m *Vas: 3.90 cu. ft. *Qms: 3.20 *Qes: .43 *Qts: .38 *Xmax: 6 mm
*Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 10-5/8", Cutout Diameter: 9", Mounting
Depth: 4-3/4"

Matching PR

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-496&scqty=2

Specifications: *Fs: 16.8 Hz *Vas: 5.20 cu.
ft. *Qms: 3.00 *Cms: .45 mm/N *Mms: 200 g *Rms: 7.03 kg/s *Sd: 480 sq.
cm. *Xmax: 10 mm *Dimensions: A: 12-3/8", B: 10-3/4", C: 3-3/8".

I think this is the way to go, Let me know what you think.

I pulled out one of the PR's today to find that the foam seal had fallen out of place during assembly back in 93, so the foam seal was out of place for about 5 inches. Also the speaker wasn't centered in the hole so 2 of the holes were very close to the edge and the MDF board was broken. For what I payed for these speakers back then, I was disappointed to see such poor workmanship. The crossovers appear to be well made, with quality Coils. The capacitors may not be the best.

The new speakers will have 5 holes and will have fresh wholes properly drilled.

Thanks again

[STL]

I have a graph comparing the response of several different options -- see attachement. For reference I first graphed the K-1001-K in a 2.7 cubic foot ported enlcosure with it tuned for a flat response. Note the volume should match that of a KG5.2 enclosure. I elected to do a ported enclosure because I needed a baseline and because ports and passive radiators are both forms of venting (and therefore yield similar results). Ported enclosures are easier to figure out (with the tuned frequency just a simple function of the enclosure volume, port diameter, and port length). I also strongly suspect that Klipsch did indeed tune the PR enclosure for a flat (or very near flat) repsonse.

The program I am using also calculates two sensativity values based on the parameters instead of relying on the manufacturer's value. For the Klipsch driver it came up with a value of 90.3dB for "SPL at 1W 1m" and a value of 93.3dB for "SPL at 2.83Vrms 1m". For the Dayton driver the values were quite a bit lower at 87.3dB and 90.8dB -- and that doesn't jibe with the sensativity Dayton calculated (see http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-485spec.pdf). I like some of the specs on that Dayton driver (like the greater Xmax) but it doesn't appear to be effecient enough. Also, you do realized that the Dayton driver has bucking magnet glued on the back for shielding -- so the fact it weighs more doesn't make it "beefier".