KG5.2 repair advice needed.

[STL]

If you want to get rid of the stock PRs then I would just switch to ports instead. I've done that on a KG4.2 as well as a pair of KG3.2s both with very good results. You only need to cut out a piece of 3/4" MDF that will cover the hole left when the PR is removed; then mount the port(s) in that peice of MDF. You might also need to route the edges of the piece so it sits flush (or almost flush) with the front baffle. I was able to sell the PRs that came with the KG3.2s (and the KG4.2) for a relatively high price since these items are no longer available from Klipsch.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

Project Update:

STL, I do not want to plug and port the cabinets, but thanks for the idea.
And Thank you for making the graph of the speaker choices.

I decided to go with the matching Dayton DVC driver and
PR.

The Magnets turned out to be quite heavy and weighing in heavier than the
original speaker. My test setup
worked perfect for comparing the New and Old drivers. The new speaker configuration, with 12 in Dayton Woofer, and 12 Dayton Passive, is -1,5 db
at 100 Hz, 250 Hz, and 500 Hz compared to the original,
And right on at 1000 Hz the LP xover point. I am going to keep experimenting
and try to make some measurements below 100 Hz. I am using a licensed copy of RealRTA software. I am going to have to get to know the program better, increase my output, and maybe even use a different MIC to go below 100hz. I will post any new results I get.

I feel that these results are good, and are well within the guidelines for speaker
replacement.

I continued comparing the speakers @ 2000, 4000 and 6000 Hz to test the original
horns, and my measurements from both horns did not match. I took them apart and
found the apparently leaked oil, that I had read about before. I used solvent to clean the oil and
rust out of the magnet slots.
Then I carefully cleaned the diaphragms. I put everything back together and retested. The
tweeters are almost working fine now. I compared them all the way up to
10khz.
I still have a little problem right at 2khz. One driver is 10db louder
right at 2khz, and I can see the harmonics on the analyzer, and hear it
ringing with my ears. Now I have to figure out if they both should be
doing that or not., and make the repair. This is the last bump in the
road so to speak.

If you need replacement diaphragms, you can get them here.
http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=10-306&Category_Code=Klipsch

Ive got some pictures, but I need to update my
website.

[STL]

The Magnets turned out to be quite heavy and weighing in heavier than the

original speaker.

Like I said before: Also, you do realized that the Dayton driver has bucking magnet glued

on the back [that is strictly] for shielding -- so the fact it weighs more doesn't make it

"beefier".

[STL]

If you need replacement diaphragms, you can get them here.

http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=10-306&Category_Code=Klipsch

Why not call 1-800-KLIPSCH and get them KLIPSCH? Last time I checked, they were the same price as that guy is charging.

[STL]

Have you tried the new 10" Dayton driver with the stock 12" passive? It very well might perform even better since it's tuned for the enclosure. I guess I don't understand getting the new PRs; it seems like changing solely for the sake of change. Like ports, a PR's tuning frequency has nothing to do do with the driver -- so changing the woofer shouldn't create the need to change the passive.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

I played some music through the modified KG5.2 and it sounds great. You can turn up the bass and it ROCKS.

Yes, I took the bucking magnet into consideration, and in the end, I ended up with a magnet at least as big as the the original.

I wanted the the components to match (visually also), thats why I did the passives also. Like you said, I can sell the originals.

STL, I compared the new 10" inch drivers using the original PR and the new one, There was no difference that I can measure,going down to 60Hz. In fact the new driver and passive is very close to the originals, from 1KHz on down to 70Hz.

I started to dig into the 2khz imbalance between the 2 speakers, and I'm pretty sure it is related to the highpass filter. 2.1 khz is the cutoff for the HP filter. The woofers are still putting out a fare amount of sound at 2 khz, If the HP filter is not working properly, I could be getting an overlap at 2khz.
That would explain the the peak. I already exchanged the 2 two horns between the speakers, and the problem did not follow the horns.

As it turned out, there is actually a DIP at 2KHz with the original 10" Driver. The new Drivers don.t have the DIP at 2KHz. The results are a flatter response through the crossover area @ 1000, 1500, and 2000 Hz.

Check out the pictures on my web site. www.rickd.net

Later

[Rickster-Atlanta]

I did some listening tests and compared the new and old driver. I can hear the 2khz peak and I can measure it also. So i dissconected the horns and went back to the lab. I tested the woofers connected to the crossovers and the speakers do not behave the same near and past the crossover point.

The new driver reproduces the response of the original up to around 1khz, after that things change. The new driver is much louder @ 2khz and then drops off faster then the original.

STL, the Audux speaker you recommended that I use, has the same characteristics around 2khz, so I would still be dealing with the same issue. This is a quote from. ::http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JBL-L26-3way.htm

A large 10" bass driver with problems in the 2 kHz region doesn't exactly call for a 2-way despite the 2-way crossover working reasonably well. To make a 2-way from a 10" midbass takes a driver with a very smooth roll-off profile and this JBL hasn't.

Apparently The original Klipsch drivers usable response is extended beyond 1.5Khz and doesnt have that spike at 2Khz. I am going to test the 2 drivers without the crossovers connected next, so I can actually , see what the difference is.

I would have known this to start out, I probably should have bought this speaker instead: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=296-432

Thanks

Rickster

[STL]

The reason those Dayton drivers aren't working well is likely due to the fact the were made to be subwoofers and not woofers. I missed that before or I would have tried talk you out of buying them (even moreso that I previously did). Being the Daytons were designed to be subwoofers, little concern was given to the upper level playback -- and it shows. If you look at the Audaxs that I recommended (which are designed as woofers) you'll see that while they do have peaking near 2k, but it is only about 4dB -- whereas the Dayton's peak is close to triple that at around 11dB. So I can see how that might be causing trouble. You'll also see that the Audax driver has a much flater response (especially from 150Hz to 800Hz) than the Dayton driver -- which might due to the superior/stiffer cone material used by the Audax driver. Here are the graphs I am comparing:

http://www.hautparleur.fr/_audax/ht240z0.pdf

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-485spec.pdf

Note the scale on the two graphs is different. I still think the Audax driver has a good chance of working well for you. You could also consider getting 10" driver from the KG-4.2/4.5 if Klipsch still has those available.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

The usable frequency range for both speakers does not go high enough to be used for this project.

If you have any ideas on a comprimise solution, like a notch filter, or altering the crossover, Please let me know.

Every 10" speaker on the PARTS EXPRESS web site, with multiple coils to get 4 ohms is classified as a SUBwoofer.

Even AurumCantus reclassifies the 8/4 ohm 2 coil version of the same driver to the subwoofer group, and its high end goes way past the Audax, which is in the woofer group.

It's the only 10" Driver on the PE website that has the frequency range to do the job, and it is in the subwoofer group becaouse it has 2 coils.

Thanks

Rickster

[STL]

The usable frequency range for both speakers does not go high enough to be used for this project.

Really? Earlier in this thread you said that you had determined the crossover point to be 1000Hz -- and the Audax looks pretty good up to that point. Or do you no longer believe the xover point is that low? I just dug around my "notes" and found the xover point for the KG4.2 is 1600Hz; Klipsch used to publish that number in the specs on their website so that's how I got the number. So if the KG5.2 has a similar xover point (which would make since becuase they use the same tweeter horns) then the Audax driver looks pretty decent up to that point -- even with the dip between 800-900Hz.

Every 10" speaker on the PARTS EXPRESS web site, with multiple coils to get 4 ohms is classified as a SUBwoofer.

Nope, not the Audax I gave you -- it's only listed as a woofer and not a subwoofer. That said I will concede that their classifications might not be accurate in all cases, but I think it's pretty clear that the Dayton you picked out was really designed to be a subwoofer.

You also might see what Madisound has to offer. Have you called 1-800-KLIPSCH to see if they still have the KG-4.2/4.5 woofers available? They would probably be your best match.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

2 order design, 1mh coil and 28 ufd cap with 4 ohm speaker is 1000hz.

Your suppose to have a usable frequency range that extends a minimum of 1 octave beyond the xover frequency. That means the speaker should be fairly flat up to the 2khz point.

It works with the k-1001-k because it doesn't peak at 2 khz, if it peaks at all, it must be far enough away from 1khz

I was thinking I could Increase the value of the cap, which would move the frequency lower, and might pull down the hump at 2khz.

What do you think?

[STL]

I think you are going to have a hard time working around that huge 2kHz hump the Daytons have without leaving a gap in the sound (between where the woofer rolls off and the horns take over). I would suggest returning those Dayton drivers (and the PRs too) and getting something better suited for the application -- whether it be the Audax drivers, some KG-4.2/4.5 drivers, or something else.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

The Mic is not calibrated, but its an expensive PC mic, with its own bias voltage. I can reproduce my measurements, and 1db on the graph does equal 1db in volume level. This should be good enough for comparing signals, but the actual freq response of the mic and sound card are not flat.

Below are the 2 drivers. The Blue line is the orginal K-1001-K, The Green line is the Dayton driver. Near feild, Pink noise, NO crossover.

Below is the Tweeter cuvre and the dayton curve shown at the same time. Near feild, Pink Noise, No crossover.

[STL]

I don't see any pictures (or attachements).

[Rickster-Atlanta]

SUCCESS !

I have spent the last couple of days comparing the the KG5.2
with the Klipsch driver to the one I converted over to the Dayton drivers. I have to be honest with you,
I cannot find any faults. My focus is always
drawn to the middle, There is no noticeable difference in level. The only thing
I notice is that the Daytons sound a little sweeter, and a touch more natural. Also you get more movement and a little more
bass out of the Daytons. You really
get some movement out of the passive when the bass kicks in. When I turn off the
bass boost, and turn on the KSW-12 SUB, the bottom end meshes seamlessly.

I have decided that posting any of the graphs I have would
really be pointless. The system is
not calibrated, the results are
nowhere near flat or represent how the speakers actually
sounded. When I started out, I was using sine waves to try to compare the outputs of the speakers, and it took me a while to figure out that it wasnt working
well. I got a lot better results with pink noise, and the results showed me
that the speakers were close in performance.

I hadnt used these KG5.2 speakers in 4 years, and I had
forgotten how good they sounded. I just saw a pair in nice shape sell for
400.00 on ebay. They certainly are great examples of how PWK could take a compromise
2 way system with a horn driver that rings with harmonics, and make it sound
fantastic.

I am very happy with the results, and I feel that these
drivers should be considered as an option for anyone who needs drivers for their
KGs, They give more than satisfactory results with no crossover mods. Also the
cost is only 106.00 for two 10 drivers and two 12 passives.

Dayton
SD270-88 10" Shielded DVC *Subwoofer

Dayton
SD315-PR 12" Passive Radiator

*The Subwoofer classification is a little confusing. The Spec'd frequency range is the same as the 10" reference series, but PartsExpress and Dayton classify drivers with 2 coils as subwoofers even though most subwoofers are only rated to 500-600 hz. There are plenty of "woofers" only rated to 1,500hz on the market, even though they appear to be more suited for a 3 way design then a 2 way.

Another possible 4ohm replacement I came across
was the "Aurum Cantus AC-250F1D 10" DVC Woofer". The upper end of the frequency range: 23-3,000 Hz is probably
closer the the K-1001-K driver, but the cost is 120.00 compared to 30.00 for the Dayton. It uses a polly
cone, and also has a 2 inch voice
coil like the K driver.

Pictures on my web site. www.rickd.net

[STL]

I am very happy with the results, and I feel that these

drivers should be considered as an option for anyone who needs drivers for their

KGs, They give more than satisfactory results with no crossover mods. Also the

cost is only 106.00 for two 10 drivers and two 12 passives.

Dayton

SD270-88 10" Shielded DVC *Subwoofer

Dayton

SD315-PR 12" Passive Radiator

Did you ever try the 10" Dayton woofer with the original 12" passive? Like I said before, the stock Klipsch passive is properly tuned the to enlcosure whereas the Dayton one is not. And be aware that the tuning of a passive has nothing to do with the active driver, but instead just the enclosure. I know you said something about the passive and driver matching cosmetically, but it's not like you'd even see them with the grills on.

*The Subwoofer classification is a little confusing. The Spec'd frequency range is the same as the 10" reference series, but PartsExpress and Dayton classify drivers with 2 coils as subwoofers even though most subwoofers are only rated to 500-600 hz. There are plenty of "woofers" only rated to 1,500hz on the market, even though they appear to be more suited for a 3 way design then a 2 way.

Actually not all the dual coil drivers on Parts Express are rated as subwoofers, then Audax one I mentioned earlier is rated as a woofer. That's likely because it has a smoother top end response than the Dayton driver you selected.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

I still have all the printouts of all the drivers I researched right here on my desk. I don't see where the high end response is smoother.

Nothing above 2khz is being used. (-18db per octave starts at 1khz) From 200-2khz the dayton has an overall deviation of 8db, where the Audux is close to 11db.
And if "smoother" means the line is flatter, that isn't the case either.

The new driver has a larger XMAX and moves more air, thats why I got the passives to match, and it works! The original Passives match a driver that had a smaller XMAX and moves less air.
If I would have purchased the Audax drivers, with only 4mm Xmax of course I would have re-used the original Passives.

I'm not saying the Audax drivers wouldn't have worked as well. Im just saying the Daytons worked fine.

I went with the Daytons over the Audax for these reasons: The specs were close enough on paper, the magnet was heavyer, The response below 2 khz was flatter, the drivers used a gasket on the back of the driver instead of the front, the xmax was larger and I liked the idea of getting a little more bottom. And then in the end, everything worked out for me. It was a like a plan came together.

Again thanks for all your help.

[STL]

Nothing above 2khz is being used. (-18db per octave starts at 1khz)

Actually the LP filter is only second order so it rolls off more gradually at 12dB/octave.

From 200-2khz the dayton has an overall deviation of 8db, where the Audux is close to 11db.

Well I'm looking a slightly past 2kHz -- partly because you noted an output problem at 2kHz and because that Dayton driver has such a pronounced spike (which looks troublesome IMO). There is a 10db difference alone between that spike and 800Hz -- going down to 200 it looks to be close to 14dB deviation. Looking at the same range on the Audax driver the deviation is around 10-11dB. In addition, the Audax is clearly more efficient than the Dayton (and seemingly a closer match to the original driver).

The new driver has a larger XMAX and moves more air, thats why I got the passives to match, and it works! The original Passives match a driver that had a smaller XMAX and moves less air.

So how did you determine the Xmax of the K-1001-K driver? As far as I know, neither of us know that spec so your statement surprises me a bit. I don't doubt the new passives work, but I guess my analytical brain just finds it odd that you didn't even try the old ones -- especially since passives are tuned to the enclosure and not the active driver.

It doesn't surprise me that those Daytons are capable of giving you more low end (they are subwoofers after all), but I cannot help but wonder if it is at the expense of midrange quality (at least somewhat). That's probably doesn't really matter though because it sounds like you need the increased low end to help keep your son from repeatedly blowing the woofers.

[Rickster-Atlanta]

The only thing this has made me realize is that the Audax driver and the Dayton driver Are so close in specs, that one of them is mis-classified.

Either the Dayton should be in the WOOFER catagory, or the Audax should be in the SUBWOOFER catagory. Which is it?????

[Rickster-Atlanta]

Where

Are the missing MID's ?

I set up the

speaker with the original

drivers, and marked the position on the floor with tape. Then I set up the mic

3ft away, level with the 10" driver. I tested the Klipsch driver

Yellow line

.

Then put the speaker

with the Dayton drivers in

position and tested that speaker the same way

Blue

.

Then I displayed both graphs at the same time

and applied the smoothing.

This is the bottom line. I cannot measure any obvious loss in MIDS. Also

I can switch the 2 speakers R to L and L to R, trying all different materials, music, TV, DVD, Am, Fm, CDs,

voice, vocals,

and I cannot hear any loss or coloration of the MIDS.

As you can see the Dayton Driver performs pretty darn close to the

K-1001-K Woofer in the mid-range area. 300-5k