beemer Posted December 31, 2001 Share Posted December 31, 2001 When my 10 year old Pioneer Pro-logic receiver started having problems on one channel, my wife elected to present me with a new Technics SA-DA8 receiver/amp for Christmas (Wow! What a woman!). Not being totally familiar with the newer audio decoding systems(5.1, DTS etc.) setup proved to be a challenging experience. I have temporarily used the factory defaults in speaker setup (large everything and 100 khz hi-cut) and it sounds great. What I am wondering is if I can make a great experience even better? Given the specs on my current system, could the Klipsch experts out there give me some opinions about speaker settings (large? small?) and filter settings (besides the receiver, the Yamaha also has adjustable Hi-cut settings). Any help would be most appreciated. ------------------ System: Technics SA-DA8 Sony CDP-C435 CD Sony DVP-NS300 DVD Hitachi UX617 VHS Klipsch KG4's Fronts Klipsch KG2.2's Surrounds Klipsch SC-1 Center Yamaha YST-SW100 sub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyleS Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 Congrats on your new unit. Gotta pitch in to help a fellow flatlander here ... My suggestion for setup is as follows: On the Technics set the Main speakers to Large, the center and rears to small. I'm assuming that your center channel, and rear speakers won't really play all the way down to 30 or 40 Hz, so this setting will direct the lower bass from the center and rear channels to the subwoofer. Hook the subwoofer up to the line level sub output on the receiver. Turn the sub crossover to it's maximum setting, if the sub doesn't have an input that bypasses it's internal crossover. What you don't want to do is have the crossover in the sub working on top of the one in the reciever as it will cut the signal too much, instead of 6 db slope you'd actually get 12 db or something. Now the most important part is calibrating the relative volume levels for all the speakers. You need to get a radio shack SPL meter to do this right. Most people try it by ear, but it makes an amazing difference for movies if it is done with the meter. I live near The Queen city, and work in the S city further north a couple of days a week, so could probably pop by with my SPL meter if you need a hand. With your dvd player, remember that the DTS flag is usually set to off as a default in the DVD players, so read the manual in turning it on, make sure the player is hooked to the Technics with a digital connection (either coax or optical). The regular right and left analog connections you were using with your prologic unit don't pass the dolby digital or dts signals, and believe me they sound way better than prologic for most of the movies. Then all you have to do is buy, or rent a copy of Eagles Hell freezes over on DTS/DVD crank it up, sit back and grin! Lyle. ------------------ Gear: Klipsch La Scala ;THX home cinema: KT-LCR, KT-SW15 Onkyo Integra DTR-7 THX Panasonic RP91 DVD NAD 7140 Stereo receiver powering LaScalas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raneman Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 Lyle, I agree with your setup for the center and rears, but I have a question about the mains. What would you recommend for the sub setting on the receiver? Commonly? the options are main (all LFE and low bass to mains), subwoofer (all to sub), or both (LFE and low bass to both mains and sub)--at least this is how it is on my Yamaha RX-V1000. I guess I've never really understood the correct small/large vs. the sub setting for the mains. It would seem to me that if you are using the sub out on the receiver (using the receiver for all bass management?), you would set all speakers to small and set the sub setting to subwoofer--then bypass the sub's crossover as you said. On most receivers with a fixed crossover, I THINK, this would then send all LFE and bass under the defined receiver crossover level to the sub. Otherwise, wouldn't you have the same bass frequencies sent to both the mains and the sub, which could cause sound problems? I've read several posts on this subject, but I haven't read an answer that I understand. Perhaps it's specific to each receiver, there is an easy solution, or I just don't get it. Man, how I wish I had a receiver with an adjustable crossover(s)! It would be so nice if I could just connect one cable to the sub and set up my receiver so that all LFE went to the sub, along with the appropriate bass frequencies I set for each channel based on my speakers (e.g., < 90 hz for my center, <40 for my mains, etc.). I guess I don't even know if this is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyleS Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 Hi, Sub crossover matching is alway one of the most difficult things to do. And unfortunately there isn't a single answer that works for everyone ... In general I look at it this way: 1. If the mains can play down to 30 or 40 HZ like Beemer's KG 4's then I prefer to set them large. Speakers such as the SC 1 that are rated only down to 70 or 80 hz are best left at small, and the lower frequencies will be directed to the subwoofer (Or mains) depending on how you set the receiver. While many main speakers from klipsch are rated to go down to 30 or 40 hz, a really good subwoofer is designed to go down to 20 hz, and is much more powerful in the 30 to 40 hz space than main speakers. Hence the subwoofer should be getting the work for LFE duty. The final wrinkle is that the best positioning of main speakers for producing bass(stuck right into the corners of the room) frequencies may not be the best position for imaging and sound stage(usually pulled out into the room and away from the corners a bit). (The exception of course is the venerable KHorn, which just happens to be designed to sit right in the corner so that the walls help it's bass production) The Yammaha is a bit unique in allowing you to direct all the low frequencies including LFE track to both the subwoofer, and the mains. Most receivers have a setting for subwoofer to be either on or off. If it is set to off, then the low frequencies from channels set to small (such as the center and rears in Beemer's system) and the LFE (the low bass track from dolby digital and dts signals) will be routed to the main speakers. I think that you can get some good results with the "Both" setting on your Yamaha, but I would be very careful in matching the sound level of the subwoofer to the main channel, so that you don't get too much Bass (Now here is where someone can pitch in and say you never have too much bass! ) The other caution with using the "Both" option is that you may actually get less bass at your listening position because the subwoofer and the main speakers may actually start cancelling each other out at low frequencies. (This is where you may end up trying to run your sub out of phase if it has a phase switch like some of the Klipsch subs do) For what it's worth: In my setup my La Scala's are set to Large, The KT-LCR (Klipch THX) speakers I use for center, and surround duties are set to small. My LFE is always routed to the KT-SW 15 sub. My Integra Reciever has an 80 hz crossover point, and I forgot to suggest to Beemer, that if his Technics can do it, he should set the crossover lower than 100 hz. I had a Technics receiver a few years ago, and one of my beefs with it was the 120 hz crossover frequency which works great for small satellites like the quintets. What I found with the higher crossover setting, is that it moves too much of the lower midrange and upper bass frequencies into the Sub, and you can start to localize the sub. (Very low frequencies are omnidirectional so you don't really know where the are coming from, they just seem to be in the room) As far as your wish, you can have it; for a price $$$ (I think the Outlaw 950 pre-amp comes with this feature and I know for sure that high end processors like Lexicon's DC-1, and MC12 have it.($6000.00 retail) Mind you for those bucks, I'll get by with what I'm doing now. Hope this helps. Lyle. ------------------ Gear: Klipsch La Scala ;THX home cinema: KT-LCR, KT-SW15 Onkyo Integra DTR-7 THX Panasonic RP91 DVD NAD 7140 Stereo receiver powering LaScalas This message has been edited by LyleS on 01-04-2002 at 02:27 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raneman Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 Thanks for the lengthy response Lyle. It really helped confirm some of my thoughts. I currently have: Yamaha RX-V1000 KLF20 Mains KLFC7 Center Infinity Bookshelf rears (being upgraded to KSP-S6s) In process of adding sub I have the mains set to large, and center and rears to small. With my Yamaha, as I understand it, this directs all LFE and bass below 90hz from any channel to the mains. Since the KLF-20s go pretty low, this setup works great. I'm in the process of adding a sub (probably an SVS PC20-39), hence my questions and confusion on how best to change the settings when the sub arrives. I was planning on changing the subwoofer setting to "subwoofer" and living with my mains being cut off at 90hz, or setting it to "both" and trying to balance the sub with my other speakers and seeing if the bass cancelled out. Your comments seem to confirm that these are my options. It's also good to know that the equipment I'm wishing for is out there, but for now I'll spend the time tweaking my system cause I don't have that kind of $$$$. beemer, sorry to budge in on your thread, but I hope that you find this information useful or interesting to your situation. Thanks again, Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raneman Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 Hey guys, In checking out Lyle's reference to the Outlaw 950 pre-amp, I stumbled across the Outlaw ICBM-1 bass management system. Check out the following links: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/icbm.html http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/icbmsv112001.pdf Does anyone have experience with this unit? Could it really solve my bass management problems for only $249? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 before i got the prepro w/ adjustable crossovers, the problem I had setting my fronts large was that room interaction & standing waves on the low bass, iow bass quantity greater but bass quality bit especially on 2 channel music sources. i'm considering that icbm for my 2nd sys (see icbm post under HT). looks like i'll have the power amp (acurus 200five for sale actually) to put it between that & my sr8000 as a preamp. i haven't used the icbm, but unless your receiver has power amp inputs or u have a seperate power amp, u can only use it between 1 component like a dvdp w/ 6 analog outputs into the direct inputs. also, been meaning to ask outlaw why they have stepped settings on the crossovers of the icbm. variable from at least 40 to 120hz would be better. but yes even for use w/ just a dvdp it provides a solution to those fixed crossovers in most receivers. i've been griping about those (like my marantz sr8000 fixed 80hz ad naseum ). big towers need to be fine tuned w/ a capable sub & room response to get the best of low bass quantity & quality. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beemer Posted January 5, 2002 Author Share Posted January 5, 2002 Thanks, Lyle for your detailed and very informantive response to my original post. Since the date of that posting, I have been scouring the archives of this board and came up with some of the information you detailed. Your response pulled a lot of loose ends together -- much appreciated. You may be interested to know that Technics now does allow a slightly lower sub crossover thn what you experienced - now 100hz rather than 120 - and adjustable upwards from there (from what I've been reading lower would be the operative direction, but, you work with what you have). Thanks also for your offer to help. The wife is working this weekend so I plan to be doing a lot of tweaking and experimentation - I'll let you know how things turn out - I may just take you up on your offer sometime. (That SPL meter you mentioned just happens to be on sale at Radio Shack this week also - I think my wife created a monster). From one stubble-jumper to another, again thanks. ------------------ System: Technics SA-DA8 Sony CDP-C435 CD Sony DVP-NS300 DVD Hitachi UX617 VHS Klipsch KG4's Fronts Klipsch KG2.2's Surrounds Klipsch SC-1 Center Yamaha YST-SW100 sub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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