jonvan Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 O.K. stick with me here. Let's say I've got a THX EX system (which I do) and want to add a second pair of surrounds in front of (5-6 feet) the existing side surrounds like the movie theaters. I have a Denon 4800 with 5200 amp. If I got another 5200 could I some how get the surround signal from the receiver to the amp and then out to the "front side" surrounds? Or is there another way? I'm just working on this as an idea for a longer room setup. Can it be done and how? Diagram below front of room _ _ _ / / / / _ _ Back of room Hope it comes through right ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 jv, boy i'd love to have that 4800. i could really use that dual surround speaker mode. then throw the new rs-7(HT) on top of the rear cornwalls(music). anyway, to get 9.1 channels, 1st wouldn't u need material encoded w/ 9.1 discrete channels as well as a 9.1 channel decoder? or are u just talking about each of the 2 side surrounds carrying the same channel? in that case u may be able to control the delay to each of the 2 speakers on each side surround channel to create a simulated 9.1 channel effect. that's way beyond me though that denon should have something like virtual surround that simulates an array of side speaks. seems like a cheaper & easier way maybe to get what u desire. ------------------ RF-3 (front), RC-3, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub Monsterbass 400 sub cables & Monster Z-12 wire Sony de935 a/v receiver Sony DVP-C650D dvdp Sony Trinitron 27" tv Technics dual cassette deck Technics direct drive turntable Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Phillips Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Doesn't the 4800 have A and B surround speaker outs?The 5800 and 3801 do. Anyway if you want to do it the way you are thinking,just run the new amp from the surround pre-outs. If you have the A/B speaker setup,the 4800 will handle the 4ohm load that 4 speakers will create. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 steve, i was curious on that as i'm looking toward a denon. dual surround i assume let's u run both sets of surrounds at once or either (1 set for music or 1 set for HT, f.e. ? so the 4800 will drive 2 pair of surrounds & a pair of rear speaks all at once w/ 7.1 channels (the 4 surrounds carrying only the 2 channels)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Phillips Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 The 3801 manual says you can use A+B surrounds. Page 19 in the 4800 manual shows that can be done also(I down loaded it some time back) jonvan,are you using the 5200 to drive the front mains?Most do. You don't need an extra amp,just set the internal amps to drive the side surrounds and add the new ones to the B surrounds. IMHO Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 I also have the 4800. I think what you are trying to do is just add a second set of surrounds, so this would not be 9.1. It would still be 6.1 with arrayed surrounds, similar to what a theater uses. I do not see any problem in doing this. Add a second POA-5200 and use the surround pre outs to that amp, then connect the amp to the second set of surrounds. Both the sourrounds of the the receiver and the surround pre outs should have signal simultaneously, but I have not tried it. As to how it would work, my guess would be poorly. This is due to the delay control. You have only 1 set of delay controls for the surrounds. So what ever you set for the one pair of surrounds will be set for the second pair of surrounds. This also goes for channel level, so you would have to have the same amp and the same speakers for the 2nd set of surrounds to match the volume. If you had two separate delay functions, it might be an interesting experiment. If you are hell bent with money to burn, I could test to see if the pre outs and the internal amp will play the same signal at the same time. I am almost positive it would. Maybe BobG can break in and discuss how arrayed surrounds are handled in a theater to check my assumptions. Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Phillips Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 These are the Heresy surrounds used at the Klisch HT.Can't remember the room size.26 or so feet deep(more?)and 17 or so wide. There are 8 Heresy's,2 on each side,2 ineach corner and 2 across the back wall.They are wired left and right and are wired in a way that they are about an 8ohm load.The rears are where they split to L&R.Sound?Great!s> As can be seen in the photos,one Heresy is a bit forward of the center of the room.The K-Horns were not being used in the surround channels. Seating starts about half way. This room was a wonderful sounding experience and is the Klipsch factory Home Theater.Man I'd love to be able to duplicate it.I'll just live with what I have. The pre outs for the surrounds will drive an amp and with the same signal the surround speaker outs are delivering.I use the pre-outs to drive my surround sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 i think there's an important distinction to be made between the klipsch theater/the local movie houses and our own listening rooms though. unless u have rows of seats or different levels of listening positions, it really seems unnecesary to have side speaker arrays. iow the theaters do it to hit the listeners seated in the various rows more effectively. & again, don't the denons have the virtual surround feature to simulate a side speaker array anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Phillips Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Boa,The Denon manual dicuses using surround L&R and back and the use of dipolar,bipolar speakers.They have a"wide screen"mode that they say makes a 7.1 using surround back speakers,works the same way as having 2 sets of side surrounds.This I know is on the 3801,4800 and 5800,and I think maybe the 3300(not real sure about that one). The KSP-S6's do the same as speaker arrays do.That's the idea behind WDST. But if one wants to use direct radiating speakers then 2 along each wall wil work very nicely.Even with just a couch in the Klipsch HT all those Heresy's would have worked great.Makes for better fill in the rear.You would have had to be there. If green is not a problem,then more is better to a certian point.IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 steve, great point - bipolar surrounds like the ksp or rs-3 would help widen the side soundstage too. there's that big debate of course on whether direct or wdst speaks should be used for surrounds & even rears. think that depends on the listener & their preferences - like music vs. HT. if i were to make the jump to 7.1 surround i think i'd combine bipolar surrounds w/ direct rears. i've been to some theaters that actually do use multichannel equipment/side surrounds where the sound actually moves up & down the sides. but that equipment hasn't (yet) become commercially viable. probably won't be long though. but most of us don't have rows of seats, or, in my case, the only listening positions-the couch & recliner-are on the same plane in my lil room. the only way i could see using additional surround speaks would be if they carried discrete channels of information - like in my case going from 5.1 to 7.1. but hey if the room's that big w/ listeners spread up & down it, it'd be a good thing i think. my sony calls that a virtual rear surround mode that really works w/ the cornwalls in the rear corners to cover my rear & sides pretty well. i agree, even w/ just a couch in the middle, more side & rear speaks are better if u want to spend the $; but, for my next green burn i'm really eyeing that denon 4800 or 5800 for 7.1 & possibly the new rf-5or7, rc-7 & rs-7... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron N Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 The only problem I see with using a second set of surround outputs would be that you couldn't control the delay timing between each set of surrounds. Unless the Denon pre-amp allows you to vary the timing between the A and B set of surround outputs. Then you would be able to correct the timing of the surrounds so that it sounds right. Wiring both sets of speakers from the same output would present the same problem but I think there may be a way around it. If I'm not mistaken I think there is a device, similiar to an in-line capacitor, that you could run in-line to the rear-most surrounds so that you could delay the signal to them mechanically rather than electronically. I could be wrong and hopefully someone will correct me if I am. Worst case scenario I'd give the Klipsch techs a call and see what they have to say on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonvan Posted February 27, 2001 Author Share Posted February 27, 2001 Hello, Thanks for all the input. A few questions...isn't the "B" surround for full range non delayed music playing? and if there is a pre out for the "side" surrounds wouln't it turn off the internal amp. in the proccess? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 jv, yea that's really what the A/B side surrounds function is for (switching between direct & bipolar, etc. type) speakers for music vs. ht it looks to me. like steve said, u can run a+b surrounds but still they would put out the same stuff at the same time. the only way to hook up the rear surrounds is w/ the effects preouts. so u could do that & just use the speaker connections for both sets of side surrounds A+B. don't know about using the surround preouts if u want to add another amp - that doesn't really seem necessary anyway. what is your current set-up (besides the receiver & amp)??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonvan Posted March 1, 2001 Author Share Posted March 1, 2001 Boa, You sure do post a lot of good info on this board thanks I currently have, and should probably put in all my posts: Denon 4800 Denon 5200 (amp) Mitsubishi S-VHS Sony (1st gen "read overpriced") DVD player Forte (L & R) C7 (center) KSP-S6 side surrounds Sony 53" Rear Proj Monitor Looking for 1 possibly 2 sets of KSP-S6's To get the 2 additional side surrounds playing identical output as existing sides doesn't sound too easy. Does my 4800 have pre outs for "all" channels, mabye I could utilize that route? any ideas? Split the rca's and go into two seperate small amps then out to the speakers? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 jv, great speaks already. if u're talking 2 sets of side surrounds & 1 set of rear surrounds, you're set already. w/ the 4800 speaker connections. put 1 set of side surrounds on A surround & the other set of sides on B, then run them together w/ the A+B surround option. then u can run your rear surrounds from the 5200 attached to the effects preouts of the 4800. note the 4 side surrounds will get the same channel info at the same time, unless the 4800 has some control for delay to A & B surrounds. this would be a great set-up for HT. OR w/ the forte mains though, u could use the 5200 for the mains (as I guess you're doing now). then all u do is connect the rear effect surrounds using the main speaker level/effect connections of the 4800 & set up the power amp in the 4800 to drive those instead. that would probably be best, especially if for music u like to use just the forte & sub (2 channel stereo). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 actually jv, looking again at the 4800 manual, u do have individual delay settings for each of the surrounds (A,B & Rear Effect) -so all u should need additional are the speakers & then u can have the 2 sets of side surrounds w/ different delay settings - get a great HT effect where the like a plane flying over goes from the front to 1st sides to 2nd sides then to rear surrounds. excellent. this must be what some movie theaters do - have delays set differently for each of the many sets of sides & rears to get that sweeping effect. hey everybody w/ a denon that likes HT should have 6 surrounds i must get a denon! disclaimer: i don't own this unit. just downloaded the manual(s) & have a great interest in acquiring 1. this is probably old for u, but other guys is there anything u see wrong about the above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonvan Posted March 2, 2001 Author Share Posted March 2, 2001 Boa, Thanks again, I forgot to list my LF10 (yes it works) sub. I think I'll give your set up a try (have 4 KG.1 laying around). 2 more questions, this seems wierd me asking you about my receiver that you don't even have!?! Do you think the "B" speaker hook-up is a "Surround" data channel or just another full range stereo channel. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonvan Posted March 2, 2001 Author Share Posted March 2, 2001 Oops, that was just 1 question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 jv, the B can do either depending how u switch/set your decoder in the 4800 & the type material you're playing. A&B are the same channel designation, but how u tell the decoder to decode determines whether they're a unique channel or a duplicate (like THX vs 5 channel stereo which really isn't 5 discrete channels but 2 channels w/ a matrix/mix in the center). if u go like above - A+B, the amp will split the power available between A & B surrounds, just like an old stereo receiver where u could hook up 2 more pair of speakers & run A+B getting half the power to each pair. should be ok though w/ those efficient klipsch speakers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 to make clear, A & B surround will always play the same info. it's just that w/ the individual delay settings on your 4800, they can play the same stuff at different times. make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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