In search of better speaker ideas and advise.

[Mystian]

Greetings everyone this is my first post. I regret to inform everyone that I fell victim to the BOSE advertisement and purchased the 701's for my mains, 201's for surrounds, and the VCS-10 center channel. I am not happy with my setup and unfortunately bought into the thoughts that BOSE was the best. I am wrong. I went into a tweeter very recently and listened to a mirage setup (so so sound), a boston acoustics setup (great highs and mids, put the BOSE to shame) and the Klipsch RF3, RS3, RC3 setup. All I have to say is wow the Klipsch sound was really great and much needed in my apt. Can anyone recommend any other speakers to listen to from various companies. I want to make an educated decision this time. Also can someone tell me how good the sound was from the various reference series 7 speakers in comparison to the 3 series. Thanks for your time and advise and be gentle on the BOSE I am aiming to improve after all

[Colin]

bonjourno!

A few years ago, an audio magazine (Sound & Vision or Audio?), began a very interesting series of comparison tests. The tests were completely subjective, not double blind, a limited study group and a very biased one at that. The magazine made no attempt to match the proper amplifier with the proper speaker. The magazine asked three musicians from a local rock band to listen to their own music on three different types of new speakers.

One set was Martin-Logan electrostatics, another was Paradigm radiator cones and the last set was Klipsch speakers with mid and high-range horns. No model names or numbers are available from my copy, but the issue was the October 1999. Each speaker was about the same price range. Each speaker retailed for about one thousand each. The three musicians listened to three of their songs on three different speakers. The front-end electronics, so crucial to the successful electrostatic or horn sound, was left unchanged. No mention was made of placement I think they were all placed in the same position in a barn size studio.

Three musicians, three speakers and three songs mean a possible result of nine different opinions. Guess what? There were nine different conclusions. Yup. Each artist liked this or that song on this or that speaker. Good thing they didn't have a tube amp in the test, or there would have 18 different opinions - one for each possible combination.

They liked the Martin-Logans because they colored the sound and disliked them because they colored the sound. Same with the Paradigms, the group said the speakers seemed to color things better The small group liked the Klipsch because they always fill up the room with good bottom (p. 125). The musicians did not like one set of speakers the most on everything.

In the conclusion, the magazine noted that they all agreed on one thing that the Klipsch made the best reference speaker. But after listening to all these songs, ultimately the Klipsch speakers are the most consistent, one member summed up for the group, with what Ive heard the record sound like from song to song you could use the Klipsches as reference monitors.

There is no comparison between the Synergy models I have heard in the dealer's rooms and the Reference ones. Of course the Synergy models sound good. And so do the Reference speakers.

All of the music is there with the S models, as it is with the R ones. But the R models seem to be able to provide the sound without effort. While the lower models work at producing the music, the Reference ones seem to be able to handle it all in stride. Bass is a bit better defined, but what I really noticed was that the treble, especially the cymbals seemed better.

On lower cost speakers, the high end often gets mashed together into a hissing or sizzling sound we recognize it as cymbals, but that is not really what they sound like. There is also better separation of the notes with the Reference speakers I have heard.

Twice as good? Hard to say, especially if it means something tangible, like a sub-woofer, which can make a very big difference. Let me say this though: buy the best speakers you can afford. Speakers are the only bargain in audio, its where you get the most bang for your buck.

If you like the Klipsch sound, their Reference series is good enough to build a great system around. You can keep adding many improvements to the RB5s, for example, without growing too fancy for them. Sub-woofers, center and rears, better CD player, pre-amp and amps can all be added, if you like their sound, without changing the main speakers.

Your ears are learning devices attached to three parallel and redundant massive super-computers. The human brain is the most powerful cluster of super-computers ever assembled. No super-computing cluster built yet can compare to the 20 billion instructions per second (BIPS) of the brain. The human brain is so powerful, it can conjure up moving emotions from the mere patterns of sounds. We call this music.

Although the rule of thumb is that we can notice a difference in loudness of 3 dB, the actual noticeable amount may be as little as 1 dB, especially in the critical range of the human voice (a deep chest bass at 90 to a lilting soprano up at 1200 Hz). This means that while new components can sound awesome when they are first installed and your first impressions tell you immediately how they sound, yet prolonged exposure to the components will reveal more and more about how it sounds with a variety of material and other components.

You, and your ears, are learning about the sound and the music. This isn't bad - it is what being a tweaking audiophile is all about. Besides what hobby doesn't have a budget? In my case, I have a budget, depending on current income, for wasting on such frivolous pursuits as hobbies (which I will candidly admit is the reason that I work at all). Every year, I plan and research some minor improvement to the system. My knowledge and enjoyment is growing. It is part of an organic, nay, make that human, experience.

Besides, when was the last time that you saw a review or a manufacturer's listing of all of the best amplifiers or cables, for example, that tested and sounded best with their system? Hell, they don't even warn us if their speaker impedance dips low or has wild curves. So tweaking audiophiles are left mixing and matching components from a field of hundreds - the possible combinations are mind boggling.

So what is the Worse case? If your dealer allows it, you take home the Synergy series; you may want to upgrade before the end of the month.

The slight differences in the specs are objective attempts to put a visual number on something only your ear can see. 48 HZ is better than 50 Hz, for example. You might describe the lower number as "better bass, more control, warmer sounding, stronger etc." But it is still just a number.

The irony of audio is that many high-end speakers with great "specs" do not sound great with out unique pieces of front-end equipment. The curvaceous B&W 800 series models are as solid as Italian marble, with great specs. But they really need a monster amp, like Krell amps the size of a small Toyota engine, to control them and sound great.

At the other extreme, giant horns like the huge Klipsch Khorn, with its classic corner placement, are said to have poor specs. Instead of the monster amps that powerful and solid cone speakers need, these large and empty horns sound best with polite and petite amps as delicate as a lace doily.

The Reference series is just that a standard at which point other speakers can be compared. It is Klipsch state of the art line at the price point of the average American consumer. On these models everything is a little better. The larger horn makes a difference, the lower cross-over point makes a difference, the larger woofers make a difference, the greater weight makes a difference, the slightly greater sensitivity and higher power handling makes a difference too.

Yet while all these differences do not add up to a walloping contrast between the two, they do add up to a better speaker with longer lasting appreciation. I could foresee a Synergy owner trading up to the Reference series, but I think that a Reference owner will only add more Reference speakers to his system.

When Klipsch BBS members read of unhappy Synergy owner, they are likely to recommend trading up to a better series. But when they hear of an unhappy Reference series owner, they are more likely to recommend changing or tweaking something with the system, because it is unlikely to be the speakers that are at fault. Instead, the front electronics may not be as good as they should be (speakers often outshine the expensive gadgets at the front of the sonic chain), or the placement may not be as optimum as could be.

This is not to say that Reference series is perfect; it is still one of the better sedan models of family home entertainment - it just can't compete with the esoteric race car models (some of the old ones Klipsch still produces).

I did not get the model numbers of all of the Synergy speakers written down, but I compared between several speakers. This was all very unscientific. We did set the volume level by hand (the Klipsch were louder).

But the difference between the first room with Synergy and the second room with Reference models was incredible. On a scale of 1 to 10, with Stereophile recommended speakers being about an 8 or a 9, I would say that the difference was quite significant: a 5 or a 6 - easy.

"Dynamics on cone speakers are typically compressed, which is equivalent to letting the air out of a tire; the drama gets sucked right out of the soundstage. Spatial resolution may also suffer, but I can deal with it, as long as rhythmic drive and emotions are present and accounted for. Finally, the timbre of vocals is usually pummeled by multi-way speakers, whose disparate sounding dome tweeters and midranges, and inevitable crossovers in the range of 2 kHz to 4 kHz harm coherency and harmonic purity. It's actually an amazing experience to walk away from a $100K system, that failed to resurrect the artist's voice, shaking your head in disbelief. How can something so simple, be so difficult to reproduce?"

I know this: buying high quality horns will anchor your system for a long time. It will be while before your entire audio front-end is much better than your speakers. In fact, I would guess that you could spend 5 to 10 the cost of the Klipsch on your front-end equipment before you need to upgrade to something else.

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

[HornEd]

Nice piece... I sensed my mind was being "Colin-ized" and it wasn't all that bad. Shades of the "Matrix" and the honest realization that the reality we think we are in is really a "brain/computer" representation created in the theatre of the mind from imperfect bits and pieces supplied by our senses. Building a better HT feeds that process with the "stuff" that builds understanding.

Thanks again... you have made me appear brief by comparison HornEd

[dougdrake2]

Hi Mystian - Welcome to the Forum, and we hope that Klipsch will find a place in your home and your heart, as it clearly has for many of us. We welcome Bose-converts with open arms -- admission of the problem is the first step to recovery .

As to your question about the difference between the Reference 3 series and the 7 series, I believe there is a noticeable step-up. Probably not on the order that Colin describes between the Synergy and the Reference series, but an improvement nonetheless. Just look at the driver sizes, cabinet sizes, etc... and you know you are getting more speaker and more sound. But either the 3 or the 7 will be worlds away from what you have been listening to.

Some on this board have expressed that if they didn't have Klipsch, they might have Paradigm (but they haven't sold their Klipsch to buy them, I've noticed .

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My System

[Mystian]

Thank you for the warm welcome everyone. I am a mere novice when it comes to speakers. I have about 3-5k to play with on my speaker upgrades. I have an onkyo AV-receiver TX-DS696 (100 X 5:watts per channel). I have never purchased an amplifier so I do not know what to even buy. I was hoping to gain some information also as to whether or not amplification was necessary to drive up to the reference 7 series. I have a small apt and know that the 7 series may be too much sound for a small area, but I will probably be moving within a year to a house. Needless to say the 3's were a lot of sound so I can only imagine about the 7's (have not heard yet). My current Apt room is 14'-11'. I know the speakers have a high sensitivity so amplification may not be needed, but I need to know for certain. Also I am not familiar with bi-wiring, is there an advantage. I also do not have a subwoofer and within reason (I do not want to be evicted ) I am open on any suggestions for a subwoofer for the future as well. Thanks for the warm welcome and please fell free to offer suggestions.