FirebirdTN

Thank you for the reply! Even if your definition isn't spot on technically correct, I do appreciate you taking the time for a reply. Your definition of bright sounds pretty much like what I anticipated, which is a good thing-because, eveidently I prefer a bright sound. I like accentuated highs and lows, and back off the presence. Sounds like my idea with some RF5s may be a good choice for me, especially since I no longer own an equalizer, and have NO plans on buying one again. -Alan

Ouch! Harsh reply! Thats the good thing about the world we live in-Different strokes for different folks... Guess I should have clarified-I am not argueing Sonys rank up there as one of the best receivers to buy-I'm just saying for the average joe (like myself); they do have their place. Part of the problem maybe that I am an average consumer type, frequenting audio-phile class forums. I'm just not into audio like most here, and definately would not spend the amount on gear that alot of people do (no disrespect intended...everyone has different priorities). As to the features-that is VERY important to me. What good is a modest HT setup, if its so complicated, that my wife can't even watch TV on it? I am sure your opinion differs, I'm just saying that is my situation. Also, futher clarification-When I say I have experienced first hand HK issues, it was NOT with a receiver. But, you mention that if I had experienced HK, then I would not even be considering the Sony. What good is a top quality piece of equipment if it breaks? ANYONE can suffer from misfortune from ANY piece of equipment, but I have the luck of the draw. As the ol' saying goes "Go to a plumber's house, and all his faucets will leak.". Same holds true for me. I have crap for luck with electronics-Even though I have the knowledge, skill, and test equipment to repair anything of mine that breaks, I don't have the TIME to fiddle with anything. I got so fed up with my electronics (all brick and morter crap), that I sold everything I owned, and started all over again. Especially since purchasing a brand new house. That was the main reason I went with the Sony: 1) Features (did what I needed) 2) build quality (no plastic crap) 3) Audio Quality-sounds good to me- Yeah, I may not know good audio quality if it hit me in the face, but then again, audio is NOT a hobby of mine 4) and most importantly...a 5 year warranty. Am I saying I bought the greatest thing since sliced bread? No, of course not. Am I saying I bought the best A/V receiver FOR ME with all the features I needed, at a price I was willing to spend? YOU BET!!! There are bound to be many people like myself frequenting these forums. I guess the thing is, alot of the regulars around here are audiophiles, that are VERY serious about their audio. But do keep in mind that there are alot of regular folk who may happen to stop by when asking for advice. I have seen it MANY MANY times before in my short tenure at these forums: ALOT of people were like me-they never even heard of Klipsch-the first they ever heard of them was because of getting a decent set of computer speakers, then started browsing the HT forums over here, only to find out they are probably in way over their head. I have seen a few of these people make a few posts that gets alot of flak for why what they have is crap, or why it won't work, and mystereously, you don't see these people post anymore. -Alan P.S. Someone still explain "bright" to me...I would still love a set of towers to go on my B channel, and really considering the RF-5s (RF7s are out of my budget)

Why is Sony hated so much around here? I'm not an audiophile or anything, but am technically saavy. But what is it about Sony and Klipsch that just don't make it a good match? Is it because most people believe a company that manufacturers so many different products can't make a decent audio product? Is it because they produce LESS power in 4 ohm mode (my sony does anyway)? As far as over-rating their power specs, I would dare say *most* a/v receivers are over-rated in that area. I think Sony receivers have their place. I've been around here for a short while, mostly lurking. I have been building my HT for a while, and still have a ways to go, but for my A/V receiver I chose the Sony STR-DA1000ES. Bottom of the line ES. I auditioned Onkyo, and didn't like it. I compared specs of the Denon, and I would have had to spend twice as much to get the features I needed that came with the Sony. I have experienced first hand H/K quality issues. For my needs, it just made sence to go with the Sony. That said, I do find something VERY ironic: Sony seems to be the brand of choice for video products-yet they have the crappiest TV warranty I have seen. Sony also seems to be the LAST choice for audio products, yet the have the BEST warranty I have seen. Strange, isn't it? Off-Subject: Those with Sony A/V receivers-Due to space and budget restraints, I have the Quintet IIs hooked to my receiver. They work exactly as I expected them too (am pleased)-That being, they are GREAT for HT, but aren't too well for music. My thought is I CAN get two tower speakers, and place them on the "B" channel, and switch speakers depending on what I am doing with the AV Receiver. My question is: How well do RF-5s do with Sony? I have heard some people say they sound "bright". What exactly does that mean in terms of frequency accentuation? I don't really know what "bright" means, but if it means what I think it does, then I prefer a bright sound. In the past, I had an EQ, and I tend to accentuate the extreme bass and high range frequencies, and attenuate the mids... -Alan P.S. For what its worth, I have heard the new digital receivers (2000ES and up) have a warm sound-reminicent of tube amplification. I don't know this first hand, but have read that quite a few times, at quite a few different forums.

Jef- Real quick-Yes, I agree that music is a series of very complex waveforms; however, NONE of the content should have any type of abrupt polarity change, or flattening, as the poster above indicated in his example of having a speaker still traveling in one direction, to be asked to stop and instantaneously change direction. -Alan

After my post, I started wondering why speaker manufacturers don't publish impedance curves for speakers, but then again, I think we are getting to the point of being to nit picky? Maybe not if your really serious about your audio. I will agree though, that differing impedance curves is just one more paramter that sets the sound of speaker "A" apart from speaker "B". Interesting read on tubes vs. solid state. Although I have no tube amp experience, it was my understanding that the voltages/currents output by a tube amp are identical with the voltages/currents ouput by a solid state amp. It seems logical to me that the output transformers job in a tube amp was to transform the voltage/current ratio to match the impedance of the speaker. Tubes are high resistance devices; solid states are low resistance devices, making solid state amplifiers more suited to directly match a low load impedance (speaker), whereas tube amps need some type of matching device (such as, but not limited to an output transformer). NOTE-All, I am saying is, technically, SS amps are better matched to low-impedance loads (like speakers)-I am not saying that means they sound better! Two completely different things! Also, as far as needing much current to pull a woofer back after being pushed-That isn't really a good explanation-1) If you pull a woofer out of its center "rest" position, and let it go, it will return by itself back to the rest position with no additional force needed. Granted, its not a "controlled" movement, but the point was you don't need an abnormal amount of power to accomplish it. 2) Being that the speaker wants to return to its natural position anyway, it won't take any additional power to accomplish returning the speaker to an inward movement. Since the natural position at rest for the speaker is "centered", then actually, it would take less power to bring it back in. 3) and lastly, when a current pushes a speaker outward, hopefully, it doesn't push it out, then suddenly and immediately stop and expect the speaker to immediately change direction! If so, then your amp is clipping! Since audio waveforms are sinusoidal, the transition from outward to inward movement should be smooth and gradual, not immediate and jerky! The only analogy I can think of at the moment, is a swing. Your speaker movement should be similar to a swing, in that you want to travel in one direction, slow down, and smoothly come to a stop for an instant, change direction, and accellerate, in the opposite direction, then smoothly slow down again, etc. You wouldn't want your speaker to go full bore in one direction, and IMMEDIATELY stop. If so, then you are definately clipping the amp! Sorry if I get long winded...just like to help when I can. -Alan

Just a quick note: EVERY speaker's impedance varies with frequency. Every single one. The impedance rating of a speaker is a "nominal" rating, usually rated at 1 Kilohertz. Being speakers are inductive in nature, all speaker impedances will be lower at frequencies below the nominal rating, and higher at frequencies above it (except maybe some exotic design that I may not be aware of). Its just the nature of the beast. -Alan

IMHO, I think "High Current" amps are just another marketing "gimic". Basic electronics will tell you that P=IE or P=I^2R. In other words, Power is equal to the voltage accross a given resistance, multiplied by the current flowing thru that resistance. Or, as in the second formula, Power is equal to the current flowing thru the resistance squared, then multiplied by that resistance. So basically, the resistance in question here is the speaker resistance (well, impedance, but lets keep it simple instead of dragging varying impedance vs frequency in). Since, in essence, the resistance is never going to change, the only way to make a given power is by the amount of current flowing thru that resistance. Higher Current will yield a higher power. If we have 3.15Amps of current flowing thru an 8 ohm speaker, then the power consumed by the speaker is 80 Watts. You could have an amplifier capable of delivering 5 amps to the same speaker, but then guess what, if that is the case, then the amp should be rated at 200Watts (5^2=25; 25*8=200). Its the current capability that gives an amplifier its ratings, so I don't see how "High Current" has any significant meaning in this case. Now, THAT SAID, there is one advantage I CAN see with "High Current" amplifiers. That is the ability to drive low impedance speakers, such as 4 ohm or even less. Using my examples above, that same 3.15 amps flowing thru a 4 ohm resistance, shows the speaker is only consuming 40 Watts. So, in order to get the 80 Watts out of that 4 ohm speaker, we now have to increase the current to almost 4.5 amps. (4.5^2*4ohms= close to 80 Watts). Keep in mind, my example shows less power from a given current for lower resistance speakers. That is slightly misleading, because actually, the less resistance you have for speakers, the harder your amp has to work. Good receivers will handle lower impedance speakers with no problem. So, the way I see it "High Current" amplifers (even though I think is still a marketing slogan), should ALL be able to drive low impedance speakers. A not so good design, is my very own newly purchased Sony 1000ES receiver. Oh, it does have a 4/8 ohm switch setting, but basically all that does is reduce the amplifiers output so they don't get fried when using speakers less than 8 ohm. I intend on running 8ohm speakers, so I didn't really mind about that, but the truth is, only a "High Current" amp should be considered if you plan on driving speakers with less than 8 ohms. Hope this helps in some small way... My Nickel. -Alan

I have been lurking thru these, and the agoraquest forums for a while. After some searches, etc, to be completely honest, I don't think Sony receivers fare to well with the group around this forum. But, for various reasons I purchased a Sony 1000ES, and LOVE IT! I couldn't be happier. But of course, I really didn't have a frame of reference, since this is only my second "HT" receiver ever; the first being a 10 year old Pro Logic Technics. I also auditioned an Onkyo at CC, and didn't like it. A comparibly priced Denon didn't have the features I needed (come on-you have to get to the $999 MSRP level before you get video conversion on a Denon?!?), and I have experienced first hand HK quality issues (that may be a thing of the past, since my HK equipment was purchased years ago). My biggest concern basically was warranty. I have such crappy luck with electronics, I wanted a damn good warranty on my A/V receiver. The ES line comes with a 5 year warranty, but unfortuneatly, the ES products aren't available at Besy Buy, or CC. Just thought I'd throw my nickel in. Hope it helps somewhat. -Alan -EDIT- If the Denon has all the features you need, don't hesitate to get it. I didn't really mean to slam Denon. They are WELL respected in my industry. I was just a little dissapointed in the feature list. In my case, I needed video upconversion. Only the current 3803 and better I belive it is has it. While I would have loved the 3803, it was just out of what I was willing to spend on a receiver, and the lower models didn't have the features I needed. That said, my 1000ES does NOT have multizone, nor does it have pre-outs. But those were features I did not need. All depends on your needs and budget, and ears I guess.

I didn't want to say anything because I wasn't 100% positive, but if class D isn't a digital amp, what *IS* then? I have seen some amp designs like you mentioned that convert the incoming digital from PCM?!? (I think that is correct) to PWM to "direct drive" the PWM amplifier. In this case, the input signal coming from the source device can be digital, and stay digital, although going thru a conversion from one type of digital to another, and finally only becoming analog to drive the speakers post PWM filter. In this setup, its still a class "D" amp, however the ONLY time the signal ever becomes analog is basically at the speaker terminals. -Alan

If you look closely at PWM, the amplifiers themselves are pure "switches", making it a digital amp, however the filtering following the PWM amplifiers filters out the switching frequency, thereby effectivly converting the signal back to analog to drive the speakers. In that very link that someone provided above, look down at almost the bottom of the page at the diagram of the "output" signal. -Alan

Thank you for posting the info! Still building my HT, I was going to just use the bare speaker wire, but the back of my receiver has all the speaker connections real close, and it would be a pain to try and cram 9 sets of speaker wire on the posts (7.1+ 2 on the B channel), so was thinking about banana jacks, but don't like crimp-ons, and not too fond of soldered ones either. Plus I didn't want to spend a fortune. Looks like another set ot two is going this way... Thanks for the info! -Alan

You CAN angle the Quintets. I purchased them for my home. Not only do the mounts "turn" 90 degress for wall mounting, they also swivel for anglling. That said, if you can afford it, the Cinema series are a MUCH better speaker. -Alan

Ummmm....I was the one who stated there was at LEAST 4 differet purposes for grounding. And, I am possitive that my statement is accurate. There maybe even more, but the ones I listed are the ones I deal with on a daily basis in broadcast engineering. Take another look. -Alan

I have been browsing the net, and stumbled onto something I hadn't thought of before... Looks like new speaker design pretty much eliminates a "midrange" speaker. Have speaker designs come along so far that this is no longer necessary? Maybe I am just used to seeing too many of those "cheap big" speakers. You know the ones: Kenwood (I actually had a set), Sony, etc...Think the set I had at one time had like a 15" woofer, 3" mid and 1" tweat... Off subject, I remember my parents owning a set of speakers I wish I still had. I know NOTHING about the company, but remember the speakers perfectly. I wonder if they were actually any good? They were rated at 40 Watts each. Each enclosure had 5 speakers. I think it was a 12" woofer, two 5" midrange, and 2 1" Tweaters (I believe). I remember taking them apart, and the woofer alone was rated at 50 Watts, the mids, 5 Watts each, and the tweats 20Watts each. The brand name was "SONICS", and all I remember was the crossovers used grey IC (Illinois Capacitor) caps in them. Something I remember odd, the woofer, in the center of cone, had a small hole, with a metal screen on it. Also the "tweaters" had some type of metal cone in front of them... Odd...just wondering if anyone has even heard of these things. I have no idea where they ended up. These speakers would have been made sometime in the 60's or 70'... They were 5 speaker cabinets, but 3-way design... -Alan

I am no expert, but I think you are asking a little too much. Your desired "grounding" scheme may well be against the NEC code. (Maybe, maybe not, I do not know). Working in broadcast, connecting quite a large amount of digital and analog equipment, I am somewhat familiar (but not an expert) on grounding. The biggest thing I see when people refer to "grounding" is alot of folks seem to think there is only one type of "grounding", which actually is not true. There are at least 4 different and distinct purposes of grounding. They are: 1) To reference a signal. Example, the peak voltage of signal A is +5 volts, with respect to point "C" in a circuit. Or the peak voltage of signal B is +12 volts in a circuit, again, with respect to point "C". Point "C" in this case would be a reference point, or "ground", even though it may not necessarilly be at 0 volt potential with respect to "earth ground". 2) Safety ground. This applies to all equipment that has a 3-wire power cord. The "ground" lug is "earthed" thru the electical wiring to prevent a shock hazard. Ever been to an arcade that when you touched two different video game cabinets at the same time you felt a jolt? I have, and that is a faulty ground. Or maybe if you touch your washing machine and dryer at the same time you get a jolt? This situation is VERY hazardous, and under no circumstances should you EVER defeat a saftey ground. Although doing so doesn't itself usually present a shock hazard, if there is a malfunction in the equipment, a properly earth grounded applicance will either trip the breaker, or at very least keep the cabinet from becoming a shock hazard. If you defeat the safety ground, you no longer have this protection. 3) RF Shielding. In environments that have high RF fields (such as factories, or communications centers like radio, TV, etc), Often times the RF energy is so strong, it can induce current flow in wiring or electronics themselfs, and often times this energy will be demodulated by a semiconductor device operating non-linearly, and produce audible interferance. Ever heard a radio station in your telephone? 4) Surge/Lighting protection. With outdoor antennas and such, the object here is, any radiator high up in the air becomes and effective lightning rod. If the antenna structure is "earthed", the hope is, if it takes a direct lighting strike, the current will flow from the earth up thru the antenna structure, rather than from the earth, thru your equipment, and then up thru the antenna structure. There is alot more to it that just for aerials, but this is basics. Problem is, often times, these different grounding purposes become at odds with one another. What maybe good for one purpose, maynot necessarily be good for another. In your particular case, what is it exactly you are trying to accomplish? -Alan -EDIT- In your particular case, I assume you are trying to prevent a ground loop hum? I am unsure of how or even if a ground loop could afftect a digital signal (its all states of high or low voltages), but if you have any points of analog, then you could have the potential for ground loops. Is this what you are trying to prevent?

You probably could use them for HT, but I don't know if I would... Like you, however, I too picked up a set of PM (4.1s for my old PIII machine), and it completely blew my "home stereo system" (can't even really call it an HT system) away in sound quality. I couldn't believe a set of computer speakers actually sounder better than my main system! That, along with various other reasons, sparked my decision to revamp my HT system, so I sold everything I had, and have started fresh. I am on a tight budget, and because of room layout, floor standers weren't an option, so it was going to have to be a bookshelf/satellite/sub speaker combination. Since the Pro-Medias impressed me so much, I decided to get the Quintets. Although on the outside, they look almost identical, they are not on the inside. The Quintets seem to weigh almost double the PMs. And of course the impedance specs are 8 ohms, as opposed to the 4 ohm PMs. Couple that with the fact that you have to keep the PM speakers hooked up to the sub, otherwise you can damage its amplifier, I don't see how you could effectively use the PMs for HT, although it could work, using the pre-outs of you A/V receiver... Anyway, I only mention the Quintets because, like you, this was my introduction to Klipsh. From what I gather, they Quints are a good speaker, but not regarded very highly around here (most people on this forum seem to have a lot more $$$ tied up in their systems than I was willing to spend). But a good HT setup is like any other hobby-you can spend as little, or as much as you can imagine on it. Its all about what you want to accomplish, what your needs are, and what your budget will allow. -Alan

If you get a chance, audition both of them...There is nothing like being able to lay your hands on a product before you buy it. I actually played with an Onkyo 701 at CC. The one thing I really didn't like about it was the volume control. Its range on the display is 0-100. I had to crank and crank and crank before the volume started to come up. I couldn't hear anything when the volume on the display was less than 50. Once past that, then it started coming up. I have read that this is normal for this receiver, but it was an anoyance to me. Just thought I'd throw that little tidbit in... -Alan

Hi all, Been lurking around here for a while, and have been slowly building my HT system...I now have my receiver and a set of Quintets, but still need 2 additional speakers and a sub. I have been looking on ebay for an extra pair of Quintets to match my current set for my 7.1 system. Problem is, NO ONE is selling silver Quintets on ebay! Black or white, they are all over the place, but nary a pair of silver ones (unless I bought another complete package). If I cannot locate another pair of silver quintets, I am possibly thinking of purchasing a pair of RSX-4 reference sats. According to the specs, they seem a good match for Quintets; they boast the same efficiency and frequency range as the Quintets (I am sure the respons is quite different though!) Now-question is...would this work? And if so, where would you place the RSXs? On the one hand, I feel compelled to put the better speakers as the main left and right front channels (the RSXs). Yet on the other, all my speakers will be wall mounted, EXCEPT the rear channels, which will be on stands. The Quintets have rear bass port, and various people and the way the manual suggests speaker placement, it almost appears to me that the Quintets rely on a wall behind them to reach the low frequency range that they spec (100Hz). Knowing my rears will be on stands, not close to any walls, this tells me to put the RSXs on the stands for rears... Thoughts? -Alan

I'm in the same boat... Not sure what color your looking for, but you can find black and white quintets all day long on ebay. I have nary to see a pair of silver ones though (what I need). I posted this in someone else's thread, but I saw a complete set of silver Quintets go for more than I paid at an authorized dealer for my set. If they weren't so darn hard for me to get, I bet there is a little bit of pocket change to be made breaking complete packages and selling individual speakers (or pairs). Only problem with that....no warranty... -Alan

Ohhh...if only you had a silver set! I am in the process of building my very modest HT setup, and have purchased a set of silver Quintet IIs from an authorized dealer, but looking for two more for my 7.1 setup. Thing is, according the dealer I purchased the speakers, Klipsch is not selling these new speakers idependantly-you have to buy a whole 5 piece set. The REALLY funny thing is, I can find black or white quintets on ebay all day long, but nary a pair of silver ones. I did see ONE set of silver quintets (complete set, not a pair), and they went for MORE THAN I PAID at an authorized dealer!!! I almost put my brand new set on ebay, but they were hard enough to get in the first place, so I decided not to... -Alan

I just picked up a Sony ES receiver myself, and I think it may depend on your particular model. Going thru the manual of my new receiver, my particular model (the 1000ES) states that if ANY speaker is rated at 6ohms or less, than use the 4 ohm position, even if the other speakers are 8 ohms. -Alan

I know everyone has their opinions on cabling, but I found this site, and am VERY happy with their products. Read their write-up on cable philosophy. Not everyone will agree I am sure, but it made absolute sense to me. Plus, in my field (Broadcast Engineering), Belden is a well known and respected manufactuer of cabling. Anyway, I choose to go with these guys for my in the wall cable runs: www.bluejeanscable.com -Alan

I am kinda new around here, but I must say that chart came as no surprise to me... I am currently building my second ever home theater system (my first was a disaster), and my previous receiver was a Technics from Sears. It was rated at 100 Watts per channel in stereo mode, and 50 Watts per channel Front, center, right, and 35 watts per channel left and right rear surrounds. At least they published the specs for home theatre mode! Anyway, its a rough estimate, but for most mass-marketed receivers, what I do is see what the power rating is in stereo. Add the two channel ratings up, then divide that factor by the total number of active channels (7 in this case since its a 7.1 channel reciever) to get what I consider a close estimate of real world performance in home theater mode. Example, the receiver I am planning on purchasing is the Sony STRDA1000ES. It the lowest of the line "ES" reciever. Its rated at 100 Watts per channel X 7. It also happens to be rated at 100 Watts per channel in stereo mode. So, L+R Stereo power=200 Watts. For simplicity of the math, say 210 watts total. Divide that by 7 for seven channels, and I expect in HT mode, I can expect about 30 watts from each channel. Again, its a rough estimate, but it ought to get close. I think the amplifier circuits in these recievers are capable of the rated output, I would guess its the power supplies that can't keep up with that kind of power with that many channels... Now, a related, but off the wall question... What is louder: A single speaker receiving 100Watts of power, or 2 identical speakers receiving 50 Watts each? The reason for this question, is maybe the manufactuers do this on purpose? Otherwise, switching from 2 channel mode to 7 channel mode and keeping the same power ratings, but now at 7 channels would mean you would have to turn the volume up and down when switching modes...Just wondering... -Alan

Need some help... I have been researching Monster cable for speaker wire, and must say I am dissapointed in their web site...If they are the best, why can't they put the most important spcification of speaker wire on their site-WIRE SIZE?!?!?!?!?!? I got my Quintets, and have started to hang them, but want some decent speaker wire that wont break the bank! I am connecting mostly inexpensive brick and mortor electronics...My receiver is going to be the Sony STR-DA1000ES. Here is the problem: The way my house is designed, I have two 12 port "dual gang" wall plates behind my A/V center, with just about every snap in adapter I need for interconnects. The problem: I don't have enough space for 7.1 sets of speaker connection snap-ins, so I am going to have to solder the speaker wire to RCA connectors (saving half the space). The typical monster cable at the local stores is too thick to fit an RCA end on... Soooo.....what is decent, that will fit? I will need a pretty good amount-I haven't measured it yet, but probably need 250-500 ft. I don't mind if my speakers wires aren't all the same length, but I do like to keep channel paris the same length (fronts, sides, rears). That is why I need that much cable... Thanks, -Alan

If you are in the same situation as me, both price, and size is a big factor. Oh, did I mention price is important? You could do what I am planning-The Quintets. Although a few people have tried to get me to step up from them, I just don't have the cash to burn on equipment like alot of people here do (no disrespect intended). Plus other factors as well... The Quintets look almost identical to the Pro-Media line of speakers, but are rated at 8 ohms instead of 4 ohms, are rated for 100watts continuous, are available in 3 color schemes, and are relatively inexpensive. Also, from what I have heard, they will sound better than the other option I was considering (accustimass). Because of varying factors, I have decided to stick with the Quintets...Namely one reason is speaker placement. Maybe further down the line I will purchase a nice set of Reference series to put on the "B" channel to use for direct mode music. You could do that with the speakers you now have. -Alan -EDIT- After thinking about it, taking my advice would require you to purchase an A/V reciever or some kind of amp. If you are on a really tight budget, what your thinking of doing ought to be a very inexpensive, yet good sounding system. I would think it would beat any of those typical "home theatre in a box" type setups.