Rockets

Thanks Q-man. The 511E uses a 1.4" driver, possibly the 511C does as well. The 805B would be nice, but I think it's too big like the 311-90. I looked at the 311-60's and was within a RCH of buying a pair, but the 60* dispersion really is too narrow for my room. The rear of my listening area is approx. 24W, and depending upon where I place the speakers, 18 to 21 feet deep...though my speaker placement area is only about 16w. This may seem like it'd be big enough, but when I shot some 60* lines the 'stereo' coverage was lacking, especially the closer you moved to the front of the room. I could move the speakers closer together, or turn them 15* to help, but doing so causes other impacts. I may just have to wait for the right 511(C/D/E) to come along, OR just say the hell with it, take the easy way out and join John over on the 'dark side'! LOL!! SIX! You have SIX 290's?? You have problems man! LOL!! Seriously, IF I go to the dark side, I'll give you the first shot at these. They're actually in better shape than I expected.

Al, is this one of those 'counter intuitive" things? I'm just really gun shy, I guess. I know the LS bass supposedly rolls off at 400hz, I see the chart of the 511 being 10db down at 400hz and I hear this little voice (I think it's the Q-mans) saying something about a 400hz "hole"! (SIGH) Which is why I think he went looking for a 300hz horn (I may be wrong here) Technically, it really appears to me to be 'only' a 75hz wide notch near 400hz. Question is would I miss it? Sorry, I've forgotten...do you use Altec to drive the 511 horn now? Do you think your response curve would be indicative of the Altec driver, or is it really the horn that's shaping these curves? Thanks again Al.

Arto, I'm not insulted about your question on neoprene. I wish I could tell you exactly where on the net I read about it. I do know that I was looking at acoustical foam vendors. I think that PE even sells a multilayered acoustical treament now that has, what appears to me, to be neoprene or a close cousin of it as one of the layers. All I can tell you is it worked for me. As far as Ricks room, I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job. Sorry I joined in in the middle of the conversation...I'll just go back to the spot on the wall now...

Al, and Q-man... Looking at Al's chart (k-55 w/ Altec 511b vs. K-501) the 10db swings of the 511b kinda scares me. Compared to the data put out by Atlas http://www.atlassound.com/techLib/SLSheets/SL2.1551.PDF there seems to be quite a difference between the plots...or am I significantly comparing apples and oranges with the planar tube vs. 511b? The k-55 seems to peak at 400hz in the planar tube, while it goes 10db down in the 511. The 501 also seems to be much flatter between 2khz and 5khz, even though it's output is much lower. I'm beginning to vasillate (again) back to John Warrens approach with the 2123's as mids. If one can believe JBL's ruler flat chart...Damn! Nothing is ever simple is it? LOL! Q-man, wanna buy a nice pair of 290's to go with your other set of 311's? LOL! BTW, for those late in joining in, the start (and Al's chart) of this discussion started over in the "La Scala AL-3 vs. ALK experience?" thread. Thanks again for your input.

Thanks Al, Q-man for the input. I'm going to start a new thread on this so as not to pollute this one further.

I'm getting OT here and I should probably start a new thread for this...my apologies Q, I know you favor the Cobreflex, but honestly...I find them ugly. Not just ugly, but @#$%^&* ugly! Aside from that, I think it'd be a bear to make a 'sealed' cabinet with those horns having a split between them that'd make a hillbilly girl proud. (my apologies to the hillbilly girls reading this) Which leaves me with either hacking on these horns I just received (advertised as being 24"w, but actually 28") or using the 511's and pushing them below cutoff, OR forget the horns and follow JW w/ his 2123J's in order to maintain a DJK modified LS bass cabinet specs w/o doing major mods. Got all of that?? Since I now have the 290's, I'd prefer taking the 511 route, IF it's feasable. Reading about ALK's new extreme XO, has me wondering if this may not be even more feasable by limiting just how low one could push the 290 w/o fear of damaging the diaphragm due to over extension. I guess what I'm looking for is someone to basically stop ME, the ignorant, from committing acts of stupidity...before I do something irreverseable, (damage!) or maybe have someone that's heard this/similar combo and thought it sounded unnatural could enlighten me. Whew! Thank you for the help! (again my apologies to the Hillbilly girls, ya'll look mighty fine..)

Q-man three things... 1) did you ever try to take the 511's below 500hz?? Say even to 400hz?? Maybe you did and I missed it. 2) my 290-16ks recently arrived, and JEEEEeeeeeeeeeezUS are they BIG!!!!! Actually, the convergence on my big screen suddenly started to become very 'unstable' and it took me a while to figure it out...thanks... 3) Your 311's look N-A-S-T-Y !! Let me know if you want to sandblast them SMMMMMmmmmmOOOOOoooooooooooooooth prior to shooting them with a finish coat. TC

Al, here is a chart John Warren presented prior of an unbaffled K-33 vs. baffled in a Khorn (IF I'm not mistaken). I'm amazed, but maybe I shouldn't be, as to the > 2 ohm delta between your Belle measurements and the Khorn and wonder how much of a spread is possible between the Belle and the Lascala?? While the spread may not seem to be much in the 'real world', once again I wonder of its impact on XO design parameters. Could one really hear the difference of a couple of ohms Z, and the subsequent change in values in L/C?? I read your paper on extreme XO's, and have questions, but will email you at a later time when I have a firmer grasp as to exactly what I'm asking... Thanks TC

Arto, let me begin by saying you ARE the master. I was only looking at this from a fly on the wall, common sense point of view. Albiet probably too late, and maybe I should have stayed on the wall... I DON'T profess to know what you know about acoustics. Rather, I'm listening to where the corners are the 'source' of the problem, and I'm thinking "take the damn things out!". The easiest way (to me) would be to bridge a 12" to 18" piece of drywall (fill the cavity if need be) between the wall/ceiling junction, and any other non-exit corners. If you REALLY wanted to get creative, you could wet the drywall and bend it to a convex shape in the corners. Obviously you can't do the doors, but that's only two out of 8 or more 90* angle's in the room. Or at least he could still treat the four or more high gain "corner reflectors" (maybe this only works in microwaves) in the room (including above the doors). Either way $2 per corner for drywall is CHEAP! (IF it works) , and it doen't eat up that much real estate. If I'm getting ahead of your suggestions, I apologize...I'll just go back to that spot on the far left wall.... sorry... BTW, I agree that carpet is 'nothing' compared to what can be done. It just that I was so blown away as to how such a simple, and cheap change made SUCH a difference. FWW, I've been playing around with the foam (similar to neoprene) that's commonly used as a floor runner to reduce foot/leg fatigue, and how much it absorbs sound. Pretty good stuff actually. Excuse me...I hear the wall calling.........

I have a dumb question. Why can't you remove the corners? Bridge a piece of drywall between say the walls and ceiling (or wall to wall). Would this not kill the standing waves produced by the 90* corners? Just asking... Not that this may factor in, but I could't believe the difference carpeting makes. One of the control rooms at work used to be all hard surfaces and the room was loud as hell. The installation of carpet on the floor and walls made an unbelievable change.

First thing you need to do is email HK's customer support to start a paper trail. I've owned at least three different models of their "refurbished" A/V receivers and have yet to find one that didn't have problems.(probably the original) The first unit was only a bad solder joint and was easily repaired. The others I ended up returning, and having HK replace them. (once with a NEW unit, once a model upgrade). You need to track the time the units in the shop and how many times you had to take it in for the same problem. I emailed customer support each time, and after the third trip I insisted upon a replacement. You just have to be 'nice', but firm. If it weren't for the fact I love the sound of the HK, I'd probably never buy another...however the fact I'm CHEAP and the price of the "refurbs" are often 1/3 the cost of new, brings me back for more punishment. Good luck! Hopefully they'll make it right on the first trip!

I CAN'T believe this...I just got a single Lascala as a "buy it now" on eBay for $275...AND it's LOCAL so I can go pick it up. There has to be something wrong with it.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3053178838&category=14993&rd=1

Thanks John. I may have misread or understood about the use of some of these crossovers. I 'thought' they were universal, in that they were commonly used in both the Khorn and Lascala. Appreciate the help. I guess I'm not as crazy as I thought...there's a long thread on here "types AA and AL compared" started by Erik Mandaville using both in his Lascala's. From reading it I gather the real battle is between the AA's (modified) and the ALK's....

John, I can see what we have here is a failure to communicate! My inquisition was less seeking a K-33 alternative, but more trying to understand why Klipsch uses inductors of different values, all seemingly aimed to a 400hz cutoff, using the K-33 in the same folded horns. As far as application, I was referring to the use in the Khorn and Lascala. Maybe you answered my question by stating one was a first order, while the other was a 2nd. I need to do a little more research... There is much I don't understand about all of this, hence my questions. I appreciate your help and patience. Thanks again.

Thanks Q-Man. I knew you had some but didn't know why you chose the ones you did other than to avoid reinventing the wheel on the crossover design. As requested I posted my question over on the Altec site, but have yet to receive a reply. May have to go to the Asylum... Reason for my asking there was a 4 ohm unit on eBay that I was semi-interested in, but lack the knowledge of how each version may differ. Looks like some differences are in the electrical interface, but what else is a mystery to me! Thanks again.

Q-man and John, I appreciate your time and effort on this. The question still out there is WHY does Klipsch use different values in their crossovers for virtually the same application? I haven't looked at all the different schematics for each generation of crossover, but what I've seen so far is no two are alike concerning the 400hz bass. John, you have shown how the impedence changes and what it measures at a given frequency. I would agree that this should dictate the value of the inductor when designing for a certain frequency cutoff. I can see where this would factor in on part of my question. What I don't understand is why Klipsch, armed with this data, would use different inductor values for the same application. The magnitude of difference between the AA at 2.5mH and AL at 4.0 is significant (at least to me). See where I'm coming from?? Thanks TC

Copy.

I have limited knowledge on these (obviously), other than they're rated at 100W, phenolic diaphragm, bandwith of 300 to 8Khz, and have a 114db output. Can anyone tell me what difference/improvements were made with each revision C thru L? Anything significant where one would want to avoid certain models? What about the impedence...is there any reason a 4 ohm, 8 ohm or 16 ohm unit won't sound essentially the same IF the proper changes are made in the cross over? Thanks, appreciate the help.

John, when dealing with eBay you can never be sure of anything! Here's what I bought. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3052020217&category=50597 Hopefully they're legit. I'd rather had a matching pair, but used, and $20 over the price of new for two, plus free shipping I don't feel too bad about the deal. Especially after seeing someone else earlier paying $305 for a used pair! (What were they thinking???) Of course, I don't have them yet to inspect them either... I've got a quick question on something that's bugging me. The Lascala base is cut off at 400 hz correct? The K-33 is 4 ohms? Then why/how in the hell does Klipsch get away with using a 4 mh coil in the AL (I think) and a 2.5 mh in the AA crossovers? From what I can tell a 1.59 mh should be used for a 4ohm load @ 400 hz. I'm exposing my ignorance, but in this case I'm happy to do so! Khorn58, I'd still be interested to hear what you find out. Thanks

Cancel my last. I just bought two K-33's for $150 w/ free shipping. The bad news is they're mismatched. One square, one round magnet (( I just hope the guy actually ships them...

CRAP!!!! Where did my message go?!?!?! I spent a half hour writng a reply to you Q-man, it it all got sucked into cyberspace ...I'll have to comback and repost later...need to go watch MNF! later... GO BUC's! Ok, let me try this again... I followed the thread on the Cobreflex horns, but failed to come up with any ideas on how to cleanly mount them in a cabinet. I also thought they were limited to 500hz. I think I'd rather use the 511b if I have to. I looked at the 311-60, shot some laser lines in my room to give me an idea of the 60 degree dispersion. I'd have to play some games w/ speaker facing to optimize them for the room, but that may present other 'issues'... Too bad too, as they're 20 inches wide...What to do, what to do...I may cop out and use the JBL 2123! I have another question, hence the reason for the attachment, (but now I see I can paste) Anyway Do you have any idea what these may be? It's a shot in the dark as I have very little technical data on them. What I have is 15", 4 ohm, 60 oz magnet, 2 layer 2 in. VC, 190Wrms, and they sold for $130. The RED suround really throws me. I 'think' they may be mfg. by PYLE, but not certain. Here's what they look like. The basket and magnet look like the newer K-33. This one looks like they removed the label on it. Any clues? Ever seen a K-33 that looked like this? I'm tempted to buy a pair at $65 ea, but don't want to fill up my garage if they don't work out! Thanks again.

Just got off the roof fixing a hole...more to do tomorrow...what a PITA! I saw those 311-60's, but the 60 degree thing bothered me. The 90's may work. I need to do some room measuring. My cabinets have yet to be built, and probably will not be an exact clone anyway if I build 'in' the vented base extension. It wouldn't bother me if the cabinets had a big wide head on them to put the horns in! LOL! How deep are they??? Thanks for the info.

Q-man, I'm GREEN w/ envy ) How wide are the 311's? That may be a show stopper for me. Thanks

RE: I for mine choosed the K-77 and sold the 2404, because i found the K-77 fits better the overall sound of the Klipschorn. Damn! I wish you hadn't said that! LOL! Here I was set on the JBL's and you countered with this!! Now you have me vascillating again. (Don't get any phunny ideas here, I'm not that kinda guy) You are correct that I should A/B test them myself. However, I was trying to avoid buying several different drivers, because it would get out of control with me. It'd be like opening Pandora's box...nearly never ending and with my family room looking like my garage (( Trust me doing A/B test on several different drivers and horns was my first inclination until I thought it through abit. I've deceided to make a set by 'concensus', probably another big mistake... Q-man, I read several of those threads in the past and YOU (ok, and a couple of your other non-conformist bud's) are the reason I'm in the situation I'm in now! In the beginnning all I wanted to do was build a set of Lascala clones and be happy!! (sigh) Then the more I read, the more things became uncertain on which direction to proceed. This project is turning into a MONSTER and I haven't even started yet!! (maybe Dicovery channel material here?) Anyway, the questions, and emotions are raging. Cost vs. performance. ALK vs. AL-3 crossovers, Air-Core vs. Litz, 2404h vs K-77, Altec vs. K-55 (and lets not forget the horn driver debate) or the JBL 2123 compares, K-33 vs. a couple of wannabe's that cost less, like the Kappa C....AND do I build in the vented base bin mod for another 3db on the lower end?!??! What effect will using a alternative to the K-33 have on that? But WAIT! If I use the JBL 2123's mids, I'll have to redesign and recalc the vented base chamber...This wears me out just thinking about it... Thanks GUYS!! Is there anyone else out there that has strong feeling for the K-77? Seriously, if you think it such a close call between the two that it really doesn't matter I'd like to know. Or any of the 'other' above mentioned I'd appreciate it. Thanks again for the input.

Thanks guys, that gives me an idea of where I need to go. I really didn't want to spend the money for the JBL's, but it looks like I will. I wish I could do an A/B on them first! The plot on the JBL is far from perfect, but the K-77 appears to lose close to 10db within it's usable range. While I question whether I can hear much above 15Khz, losing 10db sure ain't gonna help! Is the debate on the JBL 2123 vs. a horn still alive? I'm interested in A/B compares with a K-55, 511 B, and maybe a 311-90. I haven't seen much posted on it and wondered if there was any concensus on them. Maybe I need to post that question? I was tempted to bid on some Altec 1003's, but their SIZE killed that idea. I have some crossover questions to ask, but need to do some homework first, so I'll come back question in hand at a later date. Thanks again.