yromj

My morning meeting got "moved" to early afternoon, so I had some time to kill. I was driving around a small town and saw an audio store and dropped in. They carried Klipsch and Paradigm. I had listened to Paradigm a couple of times before, but only their bookshelves. (Arkansas isn't the best place to live and have this hobby, just so you know.) They had some atoms and titans, but they also had some Monitor 11s. I listened to them w/ 2-channel music. They are definitely not as bright as Klipsch, even paired w/ a Yamaha 1300 receiver. In fact I thought they were lacking some detail. The biggest thing I noticed was the soundstage. I didn't find it nearly as large as the Klipsch. Even w/ my "meager" RB-25s, I have always found the soundstage to be very impressive. Vocals seem to be coming from the TV screen when playing a 2-channel CD in stereo. The Paradigms didn't fill in the middle of the soundstage for me. Have any of you noticed anything like this or could it have been the setup? John

I find Klipsch to be brighter than some other speakers, like Paradigm. However, the brightest setup I've ever heard was a B&W and Yamaha system. My wife told the guy to turn that off so we could listen to the Denon/Klipsch system again. She said, "That one's just too...'tinny' sounding." I said, they call that bright. Personally, I like the timbre of Klipsch. I find them bright enough to bring out subtle details, but not fatiguing. $0.02, John

Darren, What you would be doing would simply lower the impedance in the speaker wire. There would be no seperation of the highs and lows between the receiver and the main speakers. An external cross-over (in other words, a cross-over between the receiver and the main speakers) would have to be used to achieve this. If it were my system, I wouldn't worry about it. $0.02, John

The most important thing to remember is this hobby/obsession is to make YOURSELF happy. It sounds like you will be happy. Enjoy your new gear!! John

Maybe not the 20-70 or so range, but you start approaching 100Hz and signal output starts to drop when firing straight into an absorptive surface like that. Putting a piece of thick ply under the sub will bring those frequencies right back out. ---------------- This may actually help me quite a bit. I had a little bit of a dilemna when I set my system up. I tried to set the cross-over one octave above the cutoff of my mains, which cutoff at 49Hz. Therefore, I set my cross-over at 100Hz and the speakers to small. I noticed that setting them to large, did fill in the upper bass a bit, but I lost clarity in the midrange. Then I set the cross-over to 80Hz and speakers to small. This helped quite a bit. If I can increase the frequency response in the 80-100 Hz area, it will probably solve the probably totally. BTW, my wife are going to test the sub over by the couch. Probably do it this weekend. John

He may be, but he didn't state it. Therefore I assumed (and we ALL know what happens when we do that) that he wasn't. So are you using any kind of external cross-over? John

---------------- On 2/18/2004 7:47:17 AM Darren wrote: His argument is the benefit of bi-wiring is to separate the high and mids from the lows to clean them up. ---------------- Question about this theory. With standard bi-wiring, are the highs and lows actually being seperated? The full-range signal from the amp goes to the posts on the back of the amp. The signal is then transferred to the speaker wire or wires. If you use two wires to connect at this point, bi-wiring, then the signal is transferred to two wires, instead of one. The signal sent along each wire is still full-range. Then the signal is conducted to the speakers by connecting each of the wires to posts. These posts connect to one cross-over. The CROSS-OVER then splits the signal into highs and lows, and sends the signals to the different drivers. Standard bi-wiring, that is w/o adding cross-overs, only helps by reducing impedance in the wire. (The Klipsch manuals even point this out.) Active and passive bi-amping are another, much more complex story, however. John

Well the short answer is the best Denon you can afford. For example, a 2803 or a 3803. The 3805 is coming out very soon as well. Forum member lovebohn has a 2803 for sale here. (I hope that's OK to post here. If it's not let me know gently, and I'll remove it.) The long, correct answer is to audition receivers w/ your choice of speakers. Some brands that are known to do well w/ Klipsch are Denon, Harmon Kardon, and Pioneer Elite. These receiver tend to be a little on the warm side which complements Klipsch's brightness quite well. Bright receivers, such as Yamaha, aren't favored by most people. (The previous comments are to be taken as "generally speaking".) My advice, and others will jump in here w/ theirs as well, is to find a few receivers which have the features you're looking for. (DSP modes, no. and types of inputs, dual zone, programmable remote, etc.) One thing to note about features, I didn't list the power as one to look for. IMHO, given the inconsistancy of power ratings from manufacturer to manufacturer, and the efficiency of Klipsch speakers, power is not a feature to fret over. Next, audition the receivers w/ the speakers. If your Klipsch dealer doesn't have a wide variety to listen to, then choosing gets a little harder. It boils down to the features YOU (or in this case, your parents) want and a sound YOU like. Hope this helps. I'd like some of the gurus around here to comment on my receiver advice. I gave the procedure I would use. If others have anything to add please do so, so I can learn as well. John

---------------- On 2/17/2004 8:02:19 PM mineral wrote: and how is it you feel the rb-25's (and essentially the whole Rx-25 series) are 'more than enough' for you? They sustain enough clarity and volume to all your hearts content? or are they merely good enough for what your environment can deliver/allow? ---------------- They sustain enough clarity (criteria No. 1 for me) and volume (criteria No. 2) to all my hearts content. I'll sum it up this way, even at background music listening levels, details are still clear. I've got ample power for watching movies at high volume levels. BTW, the receiver powering this system isn't anything fancy at all. It's a JVC 9010VBK. John

Thanks Griff!! I didn't know if I could fish the wire under the pad. I knew I could under the carpet, that's why I thought I could do it. (I was trying to avoid having to re-stretch the carpet.) Have you guys used any of that flat wire? I thought that was going to be the ticket until I saw the cost! Sorry, you're right I didn't designate the location of the recliner. Thanks again, John

---------------- On 2/16/2004 11:13:17 PM Griffinator wrote: Don't worry about using a traditional wire under the carpet. Pull up the padding and it will hide very well. If you're feeling ambitious, and have access to the basement level, I'd go so far as to drill through the floor and run underneath it. I concur with the fireplace position. Meanwhile, I'd say go ahead and put a sheet of 1/2" plywood under the sub - you'll be astounded at the difference in the bass response. Down firing subs are specifically designed to interact with a hard surface, and the 3/4" or so of carpet and carpet padding does a remarkably effective job of interfering with that interaction. ---------------- I might have to try putting it over by the couch just to see. You never know right? I don't have a basement though, so I'll have to try the under carpet idea. I just don't know if I can get it under the pad very easily. (The carpet I was pretty sure I could do.) The plywood thing I WILL try. I've been meaning to ask someone about that for a while. As for the sub along the left wall, remember my wife sits in that chair primarily and she already complains about the abundance of bass. I'm afraid a sub where we're talking about (which would make an awesome table for that chair) wouldn't go over very well. Thanks, John

---------------- On 2/16/2004 10:50:46 PM ekbriggs wrote: You have the SVS part right, no matter where you put one of those monsters it will sound good (all but the B-4 Plus is downfiring, but onto a plinth so you capet will not suck up bass energy). As far as the klipsh goes i would relocate it to your L side wall maybe 2-3' from the fireplace. Also since you say that the arm. is huge you could technically simulate a corner using it if you wanted. Another idea is to pick up another sub to use in conjunction with your existing and place it on the side corner i mentioned while keeping the original sub where it is. Your second sub does not have to be huge (on of the newer rw-10/12 or the rsw subs or even a nice pb-1 isd ) but I think that it would definately help fill out the room. Hope this helps a bit. -Eric ---------------- EKB, You bring up a point I forgot to ask about originally. Would it help to put something under my current sub (KSW-10 which is downfiring)? If so what's the best to use and do I need to attach it to my sub? John

OK, copy...paste...print...there. I haven't tried it there because of the cable run. I found a company called DE Corp which makes flat wire. They make a flat, very thin coax that I was thinking of using to make a sub cable out of. (I figured I could run this stuff under the carpet.) Then I discovered that while they don't have prices for that on the website yet, the rest of their stuff goes for ~$4-$5/foot and the connectors are ~$20/pr. For a 25' run that's ~$300! That's over half the SVS. Thanks for the help. John Next

Somebody has to have SOME idea. I thought I would get at least one "put an SVS anywhere in there and you'll have NOOO problems." At least that way I could show the wife that it's somebody ELSE'S idea! John

We need to know brand and model no. The best shot I've got is trying a system reset. Although it sounds more major than that. John

The attached pic shows my living room and kitchen area. Note the placement of the sub along the top wall. Also, note there is no corner in this room. (OK, technically there IS a corner, but I refuse to put my sub INSIDE the fireplace.) My wife's favorite seat is the recliner. This is a bass "hot spot". I've been trying for some time now to relocate the sub (a KSW-10). The armoire is VERY large (approx. 56"Wx36"Dx90"H) and simulates a corner very well. The only problem is the best bass response is definitely along the left side of the room. I tried moving the sub to the other side of the armoire, but the low end was lost. My floor is carpet and the ceilings are 9' throughout. Also note that the wall behind the couch is a half-wall with a counter behind it. So the armoire can't go in front of it. Last thing, upgrading the sub down the road is an option. Therefore, a different position assuming a more powerful sub is a possibility. The main goal is evenly distributed low-end throughout the living room. (From the rear speakers to the top wall.) Thanks, John

---------------- On 2/10/2004 5:44:28 PM Griffinator wrote: ... Hell, I'll sell you a good solid Ultralink Challenger series 30 foot sub cable for $35.00 - and I guarantee you it'll be way better than that Monster crap. ---------------- Griff, That's good to know. I'll definitely keep that in mind. Do you sell other cables as well? (eg component video, toslink, etc.?) John

---------------- On 2/16/2004 2:51:57 PM mineral wrote: Hahah i think you hit the nail right on the head. My old man has a strong passion for listening to his classic rock at high volumes. He's grown very fond of Audioslave so i think this kind of subwoofer would make him do summersaults across the room. ~50% price change is something to consider, definately. I'm curious as to the size of your room where you have your system installed. The designated room for my project isn't your typical rectangular cube...the rear of the room has the ceiling coming down on a weird angle with an opening in the middle where it joins with the window on the front of the house (i will have pictures soon). Other than that, the room is fairly square. But it is big. I don't have the dimensions of it yet, but i have an impulse that the room would be too big for Rx-25 series. If i find otherwise, i'd switch down to those. Just to go with the flow, i'll probably stick with RS-35's for the rear as well, and i don't see why not to go with the same class center channel. however, i've heard of others who use a 3rd front surround speaker (in this case, RB-35) for their center channel because of some THX compliance ( i think that was their reasoning). I mean that kinda stuff doesn't bother me, but i'd like to know the difference if there is any at all. So you have reservations about the subwoofer, eh? Weighing in at 90lbs is definately intimidating...but i hear sooooo many good things about svs. and, if it's too powerful for them, it certainly allows me the chance to buy it from them and throw in a klipsch sub of the same class (as the other 5 speakers) in the mix instead. Right now i'm set on 5.1. My parents love good quality stuff, but they'll think i'm going overboard if i convince them to get 6.1 or 7.1. i want to keep it as cheap as possible seeing as i'll be spending a few thousand canadian on this system alone, not considering the reciever, new dvdplayer and widescreen tv that they also want. ---------------- I've attached a .jpg of my living room. You can see that it's definitely not your normal room. (This .jpg was created in an effort to find a better location for my sub, since there is no corner in the room.) BTW, my ceilings are 9' throughout. The RB-25s more than satisfy me. However, I also am a firm believer in "Better Safe Than Sorry". So definitely consider both. I want an SVS so badly I can taste it!!! So I understand your point perfectly. Again, just trying to play devil's advocate here. I think the 25-39 PC+ may be a consideration. Not too big but still able to deliver. Another company which makes awesome subs which are on the smaller end of the spectrum is Sunfire. Check prices though, because I think they may be high $. I have heard of (and actually prefer) the use of another bookshelf for the center. This would be most beneficial in a 6.1 system w/ bookshelves all around. (Perfect timbre matching and bookshelves are sold in pairs, thus the 6.1.) The RSs may be a good choice for that room if it's fairly large and odd shaped. I like the way fill up my room. I think they probably do sound better than the RBs would have. (But I'm not about to borrow some RBs and find out either. No sense wanting what you can't have.) BTW, the main advantage for perfectly matched speakers is w/ multi-channel music. Your parents are going to be getting a sweet system. I wish my son would have bought me my new speakers. But since he's only 4 he's having to work pretty hard just to make rent. John

As for the stands, Sanus has some nice ones. I got mine from a local dealer (not sure of the brand), and they are very nice looking and stable. My new system is a Rx-25 system. RB-25 mains, RC-25, and RS-25 surrounds. I am VERY pleased w/ the sound of this system. An Rx-35 system would be very nice as well. (Listen to both, as there is ~50% increase in price in the systems.) What are you going to do for surrounds, bookshelves or surrounds? If you're going 7.1, you will most definitely want to use bookshelves for the rears. W/ 5.1 the choice is wide open. I ended up choosing the RS-25s over the RB-25s almost strictly because of looks. After installing them, I can say that I am very pleased w/ their sound. Make sure you clear the size of the sub w/ your parents first. Those SVS subs are not small. It'd be a pity for everything in that system to sound awesome, but your mom never give a chance because of "that big black thing over there". (Of course, your dad will be unable to come to your defense because he'll be standing in the background like the whole time.) The attached picture shows the cc in my armoire and the mains on their stands, just for reference. John

I concur w/ U.P. The only thing to note is that the RB-15's port is in the rear. I would also make sure that the speaker is very near the front of the bookshelf. That way there won't be any reflections from the bookshelf. Also, don't forget to account for the rubber feet on the speakers, when considering opening sizes. The major drawback will definitely be tweaking. You may not have as much flexibility w/ speaker height or angle. The latter may affect your ability to adjust the speakers for the best imaging. All-in-all you can still have a nice sounding system, even though it may not meet the scrutiny of some extreme audiophiles. John

CC, Does your receiver have dual zone support. I'm at the very beginning of the receiver upgrade process, and I'm going to be in the $500-$700 range. I don't currently need 7.1 processing, but I do need dual zone. Thanks, John

---------------- On 2/12/2004 6:37:31 PM GRB wrote: One more thing guys, the e-mail I received from the cable manufacturer spoke of using piggyback banana plugs on the amp to run the separate cables to the speakers. Ever heard of this? ---------------- Yea, many brands of banana plugs will allow piggy-backing. This simply means that you can plug one banana plug into the back of another. The wire is inserted into the banana plug from the side. John

---------------- On 2/12/2004 6:00:54 PM m00n wrote: Dude.... I don't care if you have to pole vault your way in. Get the RF7s for you mains. ---------------- ROTFLMAO!! m00n, You kill me! So much for ANY kind of WAF! {Honey, I got the speakers. I'll be home in a bit. I've gotta stop off and buy a couple of pool cues...It's too hard to explain now. You'll understand later.) John

---------------- On 2/11/2004 6:30:48 PM GRB wrote: This was to be accomplished by running three separate speaker cables from the same speaker outputs on the amp to each of the input posts on the speakers (minus the sub input). If this is done, am I not decreasing the ohm load from 8 down to 2? Or is there some compensation made internally through a crossover to prevent this or what? ---------------- The only thing that would be affected by doing this is the impedance in the speaker wire to the speaker. The other possibility would be active or passive tri-amping. (Active is where you would put active cross-overs IN FRONT of the amps, so that the amps are only amplifying specific frequency ranges and connect an amp channel to each driver. Passive being connecting an amp channel to the passive cross-over in front of each driver.) Therefore, you would need six amp channels for this pair of speakers. Personally, I would leave things like you've got it unless you want to spend the time/money/effort to actively tri-amp the speakers. That will get very hairy very quickly. John

---------------- On 2/11/2004 11:57:06 PM mdbrown wrote: Hey, John - nice setup. Now, I noticed that your center spkr sitting on top of the TV is considerably higher than the mains. The 3 speakers are not in the same plane. Does this work OK for you. MD ---------------- MD Thanks for the kind words. My setup works well for me. Granted, in a perfect situation I would prefer all 3 speakers to be in the same plane. OTOH, I have never been watching a movie and thought "Man I bet that iwould have been better if my center speaker was lower." I'm usually just like . If you look closely at the pic you'll see that for my speakers to all be in the same plane, my center would nearly have to be in the center of my screen. I think the large Klipsch soundstage makes them very forgiving for HT applications. Thoughts on this? John