timbley

I've been reading about crossovers a bit, and I'm confused by a lot of what I'm reading. From what I gather, a properly designed two way crossover will be phase coherent across the audio spectrum. But a 3 way can mess things up. Is this true?

Yes, there's a seperate Parametric EQ on each output. You can output the DCX into anything that takes analog inputs. Sorry, I can't remember what the MSB is. Ooh, tonight I tried something. I made a little compromise and put a 10 ohm resistor in series with each tweeter. This just happened to make the tweeters output match the woofers almost perfectly at the crossover point. So, I listened for a while without any EQ at all, just the 48db/oct butterworth crossovers set at 1.82kHz. This is the best I've heard so far! It really doesn't need any EQ at all. It's super clear. Vocals are really nice and present. I don't think I need the DEQ any more!

---------------- On 3/27/2005 10:23:01 PM greg928s4 wrote: Would you know how the D/A converters in the DCX compare to my MSB Link DAC III with Full Nelson upgrade? Greg ---------------- From everything I've read, I'd say the D/A's on the DCX would be a downgrade from your DAC. That's the hell of it. You step down in one area, but you step way up in another.

Greg, Yes, the DCX2496 is the crossover. It has three analog inputs, A,B,and C. "A" can be set for use as a digital input on the setup screen. You can hear a switch click when you select digital input. The input is balanced XLR, so you need to adapt the digital output of your CD player if it doesn't have XLR. I get around this by using the DEQ2496, which has optical digital input and XLR digital output. I think it's necessary to also get the DEQ and it's calibrated microphone to help equalize the speakers. The DCX has parametric EQ functions, but unless you've got a golden ear, it can be pretty difficult to correctly EQ untamed drivers without the mic. and real time analyzer to give you guidance. I can hear when something's wrong with the EQ, but I can't guess very well how to fix it. I also find the 31 band graphic EQ on the DEQ easier to use than than the parametric EQs. On the output, the DCX has 6 XLR analog balanced outputs, allowing for up to 3 way crossovers on a stereo pair. I bought some inexpensive Hosa cables that convert the XLR to RCA for input into the Panasonic receiver. The output gain from the DCX is a little too high, so I digitally attenuate the signal by 6 db using the DCX, and set the Panasonic to "A/D attenuate." This keeps the overflow warning from blinking on the Panasonic. No remote control functions are available as far as I know.

---------------- On 3/27/2005 9:03:15 AM greg928s4 wrote: Can you explain to the digitally-challenged how you're keeping the signal pure digital out to the amps? Greg ---------------- Greg, the pure digital path I was using involves using digital output from my Denon DVD player straight into the Panasonic receiver, which performs pre-amp functions in the digital domain, and then sends the modified digital signal to a PWM amplifier, which in effect acts as a high power D/A converter that can feed the speakers directly. Now that I'm using the DCX crossover, I have to use it's analog outputs into the Panasonic's analog 5.1 surround inputs. This means that the sound signal is going through D/A converters on the DCX, and then going back through A/D converters in the Panasonic. This surely has some degrading effect on the sound, but not nearly as much as the caps and coils in my speakers did.

---------------- On 3/27/2005 9:03:04 AM sunnysal wrote: how do you bi or triamp an rf-7? tony ---------------- I'm bi-amping using my Panasonic receiver's surround channels to run the tweeters and it's front left and right channels to run the mid-woofers. I bypassed the internal crossovers.

Hook the shorter wires to the lower driver. I think that's all that's intended there. I just had my speakers apart. btw: I upgraded my crossovers too, he, he, heee!

---------------- On 4/29/2004 3:20:11 PM timbley wrote: Has any one ever tried one of these crossovers? It looks intriguing. I wonder if receivers will be available in the near future with crossover functionality built right in and kept entirely in the digital domain right out to the amps. ---------------- To answer my own post: Yes, I've tried one with my RF-7s. After everything I've read about active crossovers, curiosity got the best of me and I ordered one. I just got the crossover this week. It works very, very well in conjunction with the DEQ2496 and measuring microphone, which I found indispensible to getting the speakers EQ'd correctly. I had some deep concerns about the DCX. My biggest worry was sound degradation due to the extra d/a a/d step required between the DCX and my Panasonic SA-XR50. I had a real fixation on keeping the path pure digital. I was also worried about converting the balanced outputs to single ended, and having to attenuate the signal digitally before feeding it to the Panny, loosing precious, precious bit depth. Well, I can say now that all my worries seem very, very silly. This is a HUGE upgrade! I'm using 48db/octave slopes, with the crossover point set at 1.82kHz.

---------------- On 3/22/2005 9:21:31 PM Klewless wrote: Does all this mean that the train whistle tone does not go up as it approaches, and down as it departs? Did anybody remember to tell the whistle about all this? Now my head hurts. ---------------- No, doppler effect is a factual certainty. It just isn't much of a factor in speaker cone excursion. The cone's linear velocity isn't high enough to create much of a doppler effect. But the changing position of the cone relative to the listener creates phase change distortion, which isn't quite the same as the wave getting stretched or compressed to a different frequency.

My understanding of a tapered array is that it's a 3 way but two of the drivers overlap in the bass frequencies. So only one driver does the midrange, but both do the lower frequencies.

---------------- On 3/18/2005 11:09:08 PM MrMcGoo wrote: I use a Pioneer VSX-59TXi as a processor..... It has to be heard to be appreciated. Bill ---------------- Very interesting, especially the advanced processing that helps with room cancellations. Great stuff! I can hardly wait to see (hear) what they come up with next.

---------------- On 3/18/2005 10:33:58 PM ben. wrote: That's actually a really good idea. ---------------- I highly recommend giving it a try. The DEQ has optical digital input and output, as well as XLR AES/EBU. I read some articles comparing the Behringer DEQ to the much more expensive DEQX. One thing that was brought up was that the Behringer uses IIR filters, while the DEQX uses FIR. I don't know anything about digital filters, but it was suggested that the IIR filters introduce phase shifts, while the FIR don't. I don't know for sure, but I'm of the impression that the Behringer is not messing up the phase. It doesn't sound like it's messing up anything to me. Anybody know about how digital filters work?

That's interesting that people would prefer the sound of compressed music. The Behringer manual says that compression can add some "punch" and fullness to the music. Maybe it makes the quieter overtones and reverbs easier to hear.

---------------- On 3/18/2005 9:32:54 AM Colin wrote: thanks, that will help I am sure, what exactly does -60 mean on that display? ---------------- Hi Colin, -60 means that the pink noise sound level is attenuated 60db from the maximum the unit can output. That's quite a lot of attenuation, since the power level doubles as you go up every 3db. I turn it all the way up to 0db and adjust the volume using my receiver. However, if you are using the analog outputs the level could be too high for your pre-amp, causing it to clip. In that case, you'd want to turn it down a bit. I'm not sure how you'd know if that was happening with pink noise, other than that the pink noise would start to sound bad. The only problem with that is pink noise already sounds bad.

Yes, I certainly do. I'm using a Behringer DEQ2496. I really, really like it. No, I love it. This is one great little EQ, especially if you use it between your transport and DAC. To my ears, on my system, this thing is transparent in the digital path.

---------------- On 3/16/2005 7:16:09 AM Colin wrote: I have analog coax output on my aging CD player, can I use the onboard DAC? Where is average on the RTA? How do I know the proper setting on the DEQ? What does the red LEDs on the clipping meter really mean? is the amp clipping? ---------------- You can use the XLR analog inputs on the DEQ. You'll need to get some adapter cables to adapt the RCA outputs of your CD player to XLR, or make some yourself. I think the manual shows a diagram of how to connect the wires. I'm not sure I know what you mean by what setting you should use. I'm assuming your talking about the RTA response rate. For listening to music, I like to use the fast response setting to see what frequency band things I'm hearing are in. When making adjustments with the microphone, I use the average setting because the pink noise is rather dynamic in the other settings, making it hard for me to visualize what the actual response curve of the room/speaker combo looks like. The red LED lighting up means that the DEQ has run out of bits, used up all 24. I don't think it will actually clip. It's got a smart feature where it automatically applies compression in the event it's fed too strong a signal - a very nice feature to keep a live performance from being glitched too badly by an accidental improper gain setting. You should only see the red leds very briefly light up from time to time. If they're on a lot, you should probably turn down the gain in the Utility menu a few db so the reds don't come on too often. I think you don't want to turn it down too much, because then you start to give up bit depth, which could degrade the sound. 24 bits is a lot, so I wouldn't be too concerned about turning it down a few db. I've played with the compression features a little. It surprises me how little I notice when a lot of compression is used. I thought it would sound much worse than it does. The level meters make it obvious how much compression my local FM rock stations use. The level meters never change through an entire song!

Hi Colin, If you keep hitting the RTA button, you will switch through the different windows. In one window you will see an option to use the "A" button to set the RTA rate to slow, medium, fast, or average. You can set the output level of the pink noise in the 1st window of the I/O screen. The "noise gain" indicator is in the lower right corner, and can be set from -60db to 0db. Mine was default set to -60, so you may need to turn it up a bit.

Kathy, Good review. I'm guessing a lot of the difference you heard had to do with the inferiority of the listening room compared to your own. 30 x 40 ft! That's more square feet than my whole pad - and with high ceilings! I'm very, very jealous! Show us a picture! My listening room is more the size of the one you heard the Klipschorns in. A friend of mine here in Eugene has Klipschorns in a rather small room. The are bright and edgy sounding in there. But I was absolutely captivated with their lively and present sound, and their ability to play at very loud levels without sounding distorted or strained. That's why I own Klipsch speakers now. I've had plenty of experience hearing my own hifi systems in different rooms over the years,and I'm continually amazed at the difference a good room can make.

Carl, Do you find the RF-7s sound better with more powerful amps even at lower volumes? I can't turn mine up loud very often because I live in a condo. Tim

Specs can be useful, but they can also be misleading. A speaker with flat response all the way up to 20khz could sound pretty bad I think unless it was in a fairly large, absorptive room and the listening position was a good distance away. Or, unless it was being run with gear that had a nice treble roll off.

---------------- On 3/16/2005 12:57:16 PM KathyMason wrote: My Rotel RB-1090 amp gives the RF-7's just what they want, the sound is very musical, dynamic, great slam and punching bass.... best I ever heard! I can really see how the RF-7's need just the right equipment to sound their very best! ---------------- Hey, are you near Eugene? I've only tried a few amps with my RF-7s. I definitely did not like my cheap RCA receiver, or my old Sony receiver on the RF-7s. But an old Sherwood tube amp sounded very good, and I think the Panasonic SA-XR50 sounds excellent. I'd like to hear that Rotel amp with the RF-7. I hear all this talk about other amps and pre-amps, and it makes me wonder if I'm missing out on something good.

Mike, Do you use the average mode on the RTA? That's the only mode I use, otherwise it's too confusing for me. Tim

---------------- On 3/15/2005 11:27:09 PM mikebse2a3 wrote: Hey Tim I appreciate reading about your observations! By the way here is some of my experience from a post on 1/4/05 when I tried adjusting the channels independently: --------------------------------- What I noticed tonight when I ran a couple of independent curves on the left and right channels was that I didn't like it as well as when I had both channels with the same response curves. " But when I alter both channels the same at least for the most part the first response is altered the same for both speakers and was better accepted by me. " ----------------------------- mike ---------------- Mike, I too have found the same settings on both channels to be the best way to go. It's just this latest room configuration that seems to benefit from a slight suppression of the right channel midrange. My room is small, so my ears may not be able to distinguish the first response from the first set of wall echoes. I'm curious to know if you or anyone else has noticed smoother response on the RTA when playing pink noise on just one speaker at a time vs. playing both simultaneously. Speaking of using different EQ per channel in the bass, I decided tonnight to let one speaker carry almost all the bass from 25 to 50hz, while the other carries everthing from about 50 to 120 using the graphic EQ in dual mono mode. So far, the bass seems better this way, and something seems more open about the sound. But the real test is well be to see if I still like it in a couple days. Sometimes problems these settings create aren't apperent to me until I've listened to a variety of music.

---------------- On 3/15/2005 11:34:16 PM Colin wrote: played with GEQ, PEQ and Width, not sure how to get FBD and Auto EQ working yet? a lot of the manual is greek to me, but love it so far... ---------------- I haven't played with the FBD yet. On the Auto EQ, you have to wait a while for anything to happen. It takes it's time, and then never seems to really finish once it gets going. You just have decide when enough is enough. Anybody else agree?

---------------- On 3/15/2005 8:56:07 AM sfogg wrote: My guess is whatever you are connecting to doesn't 'know' how to read those bits properly for a 'pro' stream and it might be mis-intrupretting something else as telling it to turn pre-emphasis on. That would make it sound brighter. Shawn ---------------- Thanks Shawn. I'll leave it in consumer mode. Tim