TheSoundBroker

Dude, I hope you are a private party and not a Klipsch dealer...cause if you are, that was NOT the smartest move I've ever seen, putting a post up offering to discount and ship Ref series product on a Klipsch forum. [:#]

Sub wise, I would stick within the Klipsch family (RW-12D or RSW-10D) or go to something like a Hsu VTF-3 Mk II. I personally prefer the Klipsch subs with the Heresy's because they are cleaner and faster at higher frequencies and you'll want to cross the Heresy's out around 60 hz or higher, meaning the sub will have to cross over higher. The Heresy's I've had come thru my dealership have sounded best with a sub that is fast and punchy...which is what their character is (Klipsch, Klipsch THX Ultra 2 and Danley have given the best results). If you are on a budget, I'd stick with the newest series Klipsch subs since they now have deeper bass extension than the previous generation, while still remaining punchy and fast. Center channel isn't as easy. If a third Heresy won't fit, then a lot of guys like the Academy center with Heritage mains. You can usually find them on E-bay or posted for sale here in the forum. Surround wise...depends on your room layout. If you need side mounted dipoles for 5.1, I'd probably go with some of the newer style Ref IV side surrounds (RS-52, RS-62). If you need monopoles in the back, either the newer Ref IV bookshelves, or ask around.

This thread...by the way...should demonstrate the importance of SETUP! Don't matter how good your gear is...if the setup is bad, you just wasted your $$.

If you've had Heresys all these years, you are not going to be happy with many things outside the Klipsch family. Many have tried...but they always come back...always [6] The most obvious thing would be to try to work around your Heresy's...but if that isn't possible, you'll want something that has some punch and some dynamics. Can you go taller and thinner? If so, you might look at an RF-82 based system. RF-82's are a lot of bang for the buck and they will give you a lot of that midbass punch you love so much while still being livable. The RSX-5's *are* TRULY killer little speakers. Get them in Cherry, not black, and they won't look so ominous. As for the smaller RSX...I've sold a lot of Cinema 10 packages (RSX-5's, RCX-4) and that system always amazes me and I have a lot of happy customers who were gently but firmly led away from Bose. Problem is, a long time Heresy owner may miss some of the kick in the chest midbass feeling you are used to. You are just not going to get that out of a 5" woofer.

Highly recommended. The Ultra 2 system works very well in this type of setup. You get extended bass response from the mains this way. Also, don't forget...they have an in-wall Ultra 2 setup imminent which they've promised no compromise versus the boxed versions. As for Rotel...no experience. Best I've ever heard them sound is with a Bryston setup...it is a truly awesome experience, heads and tails better than any other combo I've ever tried. One thing I have found is that in a larger room with treatment, you may want a bit more horsepower. I recently put in a system in a 26 x 16 x 10' room that was fully treated. We originally had 200/ch in there and we had to switch into a 300/ch 7 channel Flying Mole Cascade modular amp to make them wake up and kick us in the chest. You are well served to get them properly calibrated...makes a WORLD of difference on that system to have it calibrated and laser aligned. Also...consider putting in a fabric stretch acoustic system. Not particularly hard to do and the results are far better than individual panels. It also looks FAR more finished and professional. Also...depending on size of the room, you may also consider pairing them with the Danley Labs DTS-20 sub. If the room is big...as great as the Ultra 2 subs are...(and they are truly awesome...the DTS-20 in a large space is simply mindbending. I have one system in a big space where the customer has taken out the woofers on his Ultra 2 subs. We are probably going to need to add more subs or switch him into a Danley.

RF63 and RF83 use a larger compression driver and other upgrades. If you are familiar with the older Ref lineup...a similar comparison would be between the RF-35 and the RF-5 and RF-7. 35's were darned good...but 5's and 7's were very very special. Interestingly enough, the RF-82's remind me of the RF-5's a lot which makes them a great buy in my book.

RF-82's will definitely work in your space and I'd recommend them. The 82's dig deeper and have more authority. They'll allow you to use a lower crossover to your sub. 62's are great speakers, but if you can swing them, I consider the 82's to be the sweet spot for most bang for the buck in the line. As for BIC...the new Klipsch Ref 4 series (which said speakers are) have a new compression driver design that is significantly more extended than the BIC. I've evaluated them...not in the same league.

I like the Earthquake amps quite a bit. I actually sell them but don't advertise them heavily because to be frank, there were a ton of unauthorized dealers selling them online. Now that Earthquake is getting their act together, I am more serious about their products since they offer a LOT of value. I've been selling a lot of their Thor inwall subs...only decent in-wall sub I've run across that doesn't cost thousands. Just sold 4 of them into a system...that should be interesting! Just don't buy their PA-600 amp which is woefully underpowered and overpriced. I sell them with the Behringer EP-2500 or the Crown amps...WAY better. The Cinenova Grand amp is definitely a VERY different sounding amp than the ATI amps (which I've sold and displayed in the past)...smoother and deeper versus lighter and more forward sounding. Is is a very effortless sounding beast. I had my first taste of it about 3 years ago when a client of mine traded a 5 channel version in for a Theta Dreadnaught (I *used* to be a Theta dealer but dropped the line...too overpriced for the performance and reliability was spotty at best). Well...that Earthquake amp impressed the HECK out of me. It does a PHENOMINAL job on the big Ref speakers. I thought it was equal to the Dreadnaught and told the customer so (they were dead set on the Theta so who am I to argue [] ). I have Earthquake investigating making a 3 channel balanced Cinenova for me. I may try three of them to run the 9 channels in the demo theater. That would give that amp HUGE power supply capacitance running only 3 channels off a PS designed for 7. I'd also love to see them come out with a higher power version. As for the CinePro, they offered me a dealership but I decided against. The amps are well built and sound really good. Problem is, the company is now on the second ownership round, they seem to have expanded beyond their amp lineup into other things like speakers. They seem to be a bit undercapitalized and staying far on the fringes after the big splash and dash the first round that, from what I understand, burned a lot of people in the biz. Also, their price points are a bit hard to justify when you put them up against things like the Earthquake and...in the same price range, the Bryston. For the price of a new 4K6SEGold, I can sell somebody a Bryston 6BSST and a 4BSST...and if you can spend that kind of coin...I'd look at three 7BSST's up front which are some of THE most transparent, effortless amps on the face of the earth. If I had to make a bet as to what amp will work and what company (Bryston or CinePro) will be around in 20 years... Besides which...I sold the guys who owned CinePro some stuff and had a heck of a time collecting the balance from them which ain't a good sign.

Actually, to be fair, that may be a correct figure. They may have rated it 20 to 20K. Most of the time you see damping factors rated at limited bandwidth (to 500 hz or 1 Khz), which for subwoofer use is absolutely fine. If you extend the bandwidth full range, the figure drops...a lot. If, however, that rating is bandwidth limited...somebody at Krell probably missed a zero since their amps usually do have pretty decent bottom end control. And Perreaux....man that is a company who has stayed on the sidelines, which is a shame! I remember the first Perreaux demo I ever saw. Rep brought one in...flat dropped it on the floor from about 2 feet (much to our horror), grinned and hooked it up...it proceeded to work perfectly. Unfortunately, they have never seemed to be able to break out of the fringe, but they make some good stuff.

Ahem...back to the ORIGINAL question... Good amps for subwoofer use... Blue Ice Amp...not my cuppa. Low damping factor and it is OBNOXIOUSLY gaudy. There are also few published specs on their website. Actually there is basically NOTHING on their website to speak of. There is an arguement as to whether that amp has a -3db point at 40 hz...you really want to use it to drive subs? Crown? Full set of specs and a forum where you can post and the engineers will post back answers, often in hours. Most of the models are down 3 db at 10. Check out the Crown K1 and K-2. Both highly respected for LFE use. Crown XLS. Not bad, a bit low on the damping factor...not my first recommendation for a dedicated sub amp. The new Crown XTI series looks very good for sub use. It is also voltage efficient. Over double the damping factor of XLS but more $$, though it does have a built in LFE parametric section...kinda like a BFD light onboard! Crown Macrotech's. Very good, but watch your wall voltage...they can suck it down. 20 amp lines are a must. Crown I-Tech. Big horsepower. >5000 on the damping factor which is HUGE. Yeah, it is a good subwoofer amp to say the least. Wall voltage is a "no duh". By the way...why doesn't Krell publish damping factors on their amps? I looked in their manuals and couldn't find it. Crown Comtech. These sometimes come up CHEAP. I just missed a Comtech 1600 on Ebay, a massive beast. Woulda made a great sub amp. Input pack needs to be upgraded to take XLR's but that is cheap. Again...you'll need 20 amp lines for the bigger ones. Crown/Techron. Talk about massive! These are industrial amps used to run servo motors, shaker tables, etc. You think Krell will run loads...man, they aren't even on the same PLANET as the biggest Techron amps. Their biggest setup requires 230v 3 phase, will run a 0.25 ohm load, and delivers a constant (not peak, constant) 180 amps of power which translates into MANY MANY kilowatts of power...enough to literally kill you. They also happen to sound PHENOMINAL. So there. [] The 7560 and 7570 come up on Ebay in the $700 range but they probably should be gone thru since many have lead hard lives. Rebuilt, they would giggle uncontrollably at a home subwoofer setup. Other than Crown... Bryston 7B. Far Far Bigger power supply than your 4B. More control. Bryston 14B. Stereo version of the above...but a bit less power supply capacitance/ch than the 7B. Stick with 7B's if you can for LFE use (this from direct experience running the bass columns on PMC MB2/XBD's where we were clipping the 14b and had better luck with the 7B. Bryston 28B SST monoblocks. Krell look out. This beast is coming soon. Get an electrician. No pricing announced yet that I know of...probably $5K each. Another 4B...shoulda grabbed that other one...you coulda made money! Good amps in mono. Problem is, their damping factor gets halved and that could be an issue in that it starts at 300 to begin with. Up top and in stereo, still a great amp. In mono, maybe not the best LFE amps. Current SST version is better in that respect. Mackie M2600. Big, beefy horsepower. Also needs wall amperage. I may have a used one coming in (actually getting a pair...but will probably keep one and sell the other). One of the better deals in bass land...lots of people keep them. QSC Powerlight, PLX-2. Excellent for bass. Bob Lee at QSC is active on the AVS forum. QSC RMX (Bigger ones). Also excellent but power hungry. The guys at Danley Labs like the bigger QSC's and that says a LOT for bass. Lab Gruppen. Expensive studio amps...another recommendation from the guys at Danley Labs for LFE...trust me, those guys KNOW bass. Behringer EP-2500. Probably the best cheap sub amp. I sell them for $299. >300 damping factor, 450 w/ch at 8, 1300 bridged mono, though again, you half the damping factor in mono. Lot of guys using them for dedicated IB sub amps on the AVS forum. Krell? Not bad. I've replaced a number of them with Bryston amps. Their current models are bling bling city with more polished metal than is on display at the Barrett Jackson. In studios...sorry, you are probably gonna find Bryston if they are using higher end passive cooled amps. They are more neutral, more transparent, and bulletproof. Just why is it that Krell doesn't do a 20 year warranty like Bryston? They certainly charge enough for them...oh wait...I've seen a number go down in flames...that's why. I used to sell them. Oh, and I don't believe their current amps are 1 ohm rated. Why bother? Nobody in the home market runs constant 1 ohm loads after the silliness of the Apogee Scintillas faded from memory (thank GOD!). As for banks of pro subs...most pro guys simply thow more amps at it than run tons of cabinets with a super low impedence and risk an amp meltdown in the middle of a performance (the ULTIMATE engineers nightmare).

Well, my experience (from my days as a Linn dealer) is that going from a passive crossover into a fully active biamped system usually gets you pretty substantial gains in output and control. You won't come close to saturating the crossover components because they aren't there! The question would be whether the crossovers are straight forward or have any funkiness to them (phase correction, etc.). Guys...give me a bigger Ultra 2 sat with triple 8's!!!! I know the compression driver can take it. I wouldn't double them up...that would be a nightmare. At this point, either big Heritage or small Pro Cinema may be the choice for this space.

I agree. I prefer the RF-83 myself and do think they are smoother...not that I don't like the Ref 7 system (god knows I put enough of them in), but they really nailed it with the 83. The room is 23 x 38 x 10. I'm converting a large Insulated Concrete Form building on an adjacent property I purchased to a dedicated screening building/showroom space. It should be...adequate. You would need to change the acoustic treatment for Heritage because the dispersion on their drivers is quite a bit wider than the horns used on Ultra 2, so the primarly reflection point zone is different. Heritage based systems require more acoustic treatment than Ultra 2 based systems because of their dispersion.

A few questions and observations... First off, is the electric screen allready in? If not, you may consider an acoustic screen with the center mounted behind. Second...is the room an existing space, or are you starting blank. Reason being is that the corner placement is always a problem. You are very limited in what you can do. If the bar to the right side could be moved back, you have the opportunity to go to a screen wall setup. Thing you want to determine is if you want this to be a dedicated theater space/screening room or more of a family/media room. If you want it to be a dedicated theater space, then you'll want to rotate the room, put in a screen wall and see if you can move the fireplace to a different area. If not, then you'll have to deal with the corner placement. One thing to keep in mind, even though your space may be 17' x 17' as far as the space you have dedicated for viewing...your speakers don't know this (the sound doesn't get to 17' and say "oops, I'd better stop now!"). Assuming you have an 8' ceiling, this means you have a 12500 ft3 space...that is HUGE. Your system, particularly subs, will need to be able to handle that area or they will be totally lost. The two amps you listed won't have even *remotely* enough power. If you were my client, I'd seriously encourage you to make it a dedicated space and partition the area into a family entertainmeny area with the bar and fireplace (kind of like a really nice foyer) and a theater space. You can put in a nice large set of double doors to open the room up to others when you are entertaining. You'll actually SAVE money on gear that way since you won't have to plan for a speaker/sub system that won't sound lost and be at the limits all the time in that area. In addition, having a dedicated theater space will add more value to your home.

One thing to keep in mind is that this will be somewhat amp dependent.- Reason being is that by running the RF7's full range, you are demanding more current from your amp. The RF-7 was one of the few Klipsch designs that is not particularly amp friendly and presents a pretty low impedence load down near the resonance point of the woofers. If you have a larger space and like to crank it up, you may be demanding more than the amp is capable of and it may sound worse. If you have the option to use a lower crossover frequency, do so. I always used 40hz when I ran 7's (with separates) and unless there was a room peak, thought that was their sweet spot (the center was best at 50hz). You should try it both ways but know that an RF-7 based system run by a reciever nearly always benefits from an amp upgrade for the mains. You don't necessarily need a ton more horsepower, but an amp with a lot of output current and stability will show huge benefits. I had the best results on RF-7's with the Bryston 3BSST and 4BSST. Best I ever heard a Ref 7 system sound is one setup I did with a 9BSST with an additional 4BSST biamping the woofers on the F's (the 9BSST ran the top). That system was totally transformed and sounded very very different than I'd ever heard it before.

Yup, that is my understanding. I've put them in larger spaces...but nothing this big and without this much treatment. I've done some active biamp setups before (PMC) and we had no issues in spaces that size. I'm thinking the extra control will allow me to get a bit more dynamics and efficiency. My other option is to get three KW-120's and use them as mid bass woofers with an active crossover set higher...but at that point I'd need to evaluate if it is worth going to some alternatives. I know Heritage will work (though I'd need to change the front 1/3rd acoustic treatment pattern) and I'm also thinking triple RF-83's up front...but I've done enough Ultra 2 setups to really respect the smoothness and clarity of that compression driver (good as 83's are...they don't quite get to the Ultra 2 in the top end). I wish Klipsch made a bigger version of the KL-650 (HINT HINT). []

I have a new demo space we are putting in and would like to do a KL-650 setup up front. Problem is, the space is larger than the 650's are rated for (about 8000 ft3 with about 30% acoustic treatment coverage). I did a setup in a room a bit smaller than this without treatment and they were just on the edge (we took out one Ultra 2 woofer with a twin setup and may have to go to a third or a Danley DTS-20 in that space). One thing I am noodling with is going actively biamped on the 3 front KL-650's to increase their control and dynamic range. I also sell PMC and they get about 116 db out of their little AML-1 active monitors...really scary considering their size. So...anybody here ever play around with them in this way? I sent a note off to Trey but figured I'd try the forum too.

Right now, it has been removed and covered over since the screen wall is getting Linacoustic and we are firring out the side walls for Linacoustic/batting and fabric. I promise to get pics up for everybody as soon as I can. On another note...I am thinking of doing an actively biamped THX Ultra 2 setup up front. Anybody by any chance do this with KL-650's?

Just traded in. Very clean, sounds wonderful! Had it on for 24 hours with no issues. $150 plus shipping. These are classics.

Well, it has been a while since this was first posted! I've been busy. Yes, the DTS-20 is in. Took six of us to carry it from the truck the 300' into my home theater building. It is...um...big! If you stand it up, that is one mighty impressive box. If you were to lay it down, it would actually make a really good center channel stand. The theater is finally drywalled, painted and we started in on acoustics yesterday. Just for laughs, I hooked it up and ran a sweep on it. GOOD GOD! [] To say it is powerful is...um..an understatement. I've never felt anything like that beast and I've put in a LOT of subwoofers over my 26 year career in this crazy business. Believe the numbers guys...definitely believe the numbers.

XTi's do replace CE, though CE actually was more expensive at retail. Remember, CE was looked down on when it first came out because it was lighter, had a switch mode PS and it was far less $$ than the other amps in the Crown lineup. Now, the top of the line amps are light, and have switch mode PS, plus there are far less $$ amps in the lineup that a lot of folks are liking. I've used CE 2000's and 4000's in a few smaller sub setups and had excellent luck with them (better than XLS and XS). The top Line ITech amps are insane for subwoofer use...but they are honestly too potent for many people's needs with the smallest being 1250/ch into 8 ohms in stereo. K Series amps are good, but a bit light in stereo for big sub setups (they have far better control in stereo...but the biggest is only 500/ch). What I want is a monoblock ITech 4000 without all the electronic goodies on it...now THAT would be a subwoofer amp! I also like QSC...but they seem to have it stuck in their head that front exhaust cooling is the way to go. This doesn't work too well with many home theater flush in wall rack setups that are designed for rear and up draw. I'm trying to get them to allow me to reverse the fan and not void the warranty on the PL2's.

I'm not sure it makes sense to replace a reasonably decent sub with a reasonably decent sub. I'd suggest just using the RW-12 for now and putting the pennies aside for a while to get ye into a great sub. If you are going to upgrade...UPGRADE! []

In an ideal world, with a dedicated room, what the CEDIA guy said is true...but in the real world with setups that are often far from ideal, surround placement is all about coverage. If you have a close rear seating position and you use side mounted di-poles, you are almost guaranteed to have a coverage hole in the middle seating positions, particularly if you have more than 3 seats wide. What Olindo proposes may work if the speakers are properly positioned and you are trying to get around a seating position that is within 2 feet of the back wall. If the back of your seating is further out than 3 feet, I recommend sticking with traditional side dipole placement. If your room is particularly wide...consider going to 6.1 with a monopole rear center to fill in the rear center.

Okay....did somebody mention no size limitations? Good. This arguement is easy. Danley Labs DTS-20. Good as all the other mentioned subs are...they are not even in the same league. I ran out of range on our SPL meter (120db) at 16hz with this beast from hell...and it still had a lot more to give. That was not even optimized in the new demo space (which is still awaiting acoustic treatment). It also has technical specs that put others to shame. Distortion 20hz is in the VERY low single digits at these output levels and vanishing at the levels most people will be able to tolerate. Group delay is near zero. As long as you can live with a 7 foot tall box, there isn't anything production I've used in 26 years that even approaches this monster. Took six of us to get it near the building in the crate and four of us to get it into the room. Now THAT is a sub! Fortunately, since is is only 20" on a side...it is actually pretty easy to place. This is the first sub that K-Horns will have a hard time keeping up with. The big SVS or Velo...you'd need 3-4 of them to try to match the output and this will still have far better specs...plus it costs less. The Ultra 2 subs, I've set up my fair share and I have to say that they are excellent, truly excellent. Fast, detailed, deep, powerful and flexible. I'd put them up against the others mentioned. One of the most musical sub setups out there and easy to place because of the offboard amp and the size...but if you are truly looking for the Mother of all subs, the DTS-20 is the way to go. And if you are truly insane, they make bigger. MUCH bigger. 130db at 10 hz bigger if you have the space and the budget (think Military).

I feel qualified to comment on the Hsu portion because I am a Klipsch dealer and Huge fan...plus I also sell and display the Hsu VTF-3 Mk II. Sorry, with all due respect to Klipsch...the VTF-3 is in an entirely different league than the RW-12. I've had them side by side...no comparison. That being said, I have NOT compared it with the replacement for the RW-12...which is just barely starting to ship... No, neither one is adequate to keep up with K-Horns. You need a sub that not only gets deep but also has clean output and punch up into the 50hz range. The Hsu is a bit wooley up top as is the SVS. Both subs are tuned for depth and extension with the sacrifice of some punch up top. You need both punch and depth to add to the extension and not screw up the sound of the mighty K-Horns. You own an uncompromised product and you can't put them with a compromised sub and get away with it. I'd look/save for a pre-owned RSW-15 as a sub that goes deep, and hits HARD enough to keep up with your K-Horns. You could also save a lot more sheckels and buy the new RT-12D which looks to seriously silence all the Klipsch subwoofer critics on the other forums.

Probably a fake posting. You see them all the time on Ebay. Once the auction is over, the guy turns out to be in Romania or something like that and wants a wire transfer. If you choose to do it...you DESERVE to lose your money. I report them constantly to Ebay (easy to tell).