Travis In Austin
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Posts posted by Travis In Austin
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Furthermore, this "live versus recorded" was done at each new invention (like tape), and the results were always the same - people were fooled.
I suspect that there are at least two issues that worked for Edison: Since people hadn't heard a recording they didn't know what one sounded like, and also I suspect that the device and the musician were behind less than acoustically transparent curtains.
Just guessing, but not unreasonable. Love to read a full description of a setup for this or see a photograph. Must have been some photos made.
Dave
The book addresses all of that. The singer's said they adjusted their voice and level to match the Gramaphone (or whatever it was on stage).
He also talks about recording and mixing like people like Steve Albini (Surfer Rosa, portions of original In Uetero, the full remastered version) and there much different philosophy about recording, mixing, compression, etc.
I went back and looked at a couple of sections of the book last night after reading some of Mark's excerpts and summary.
What is great about this book is it is a stark reminder that recording is part of the music BUSINESS, and it is a business. They record for the masses, they mix for the masses, they Eq for the masses, they apply compression for the masses. Everyone gets caught up in it. Albini was quoted that he has never been able to record an lp that he believes didn't need changing. He said with every one it turned into "I want a hit record." It is not just the record company executives, it is the artists also who say they want a louder record or whatever else they think they need to have a hit.
The story in the book on the recordings for Nebraska were quite interesting.
Fortunately, the ultimate determination of what the quality of something should be is with the consumer (although that is troubling after seeing what Apple's profit was, we may be with MP3 and headphones for quite sometime as the ideal listening situation).
There are numerous examples in the book that exemplify the conflicts between the artistry and the BUSINESS of music.
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While I think the example in the book about the politics between the producer and the band is a great one, having dealt with journalists enough myself, I know that you have to look at their sources for quotes with some skepticism. It is no different here and there is some dispute about Bongiovi's claims starting in 2009 when the book was released.
Ed Stasium was the recording engineer on that album and when he heard about Bongiovi's claims in the book he responded as follows:
"A pal of mine informed me of this discussion....
This will be brief...I want to set the record straight about Tina playing on TH77. At the sessions Bongiovi would show up once in a while and when he did he would proceed to the lounge and read airplane magazines. Lance was there most of the time, I was the only person involved in the recording of the project who was there for every minute of the process. Tina played bass on the ENTIRE LP, Bob Babbitt did come in and overdub on one or maybe two songs but at the mixing stage I did not put Babbitt's bass up in the mix and the "producers" knew none the better! I seem to recall that I may have "Ghosted" Bob on the chorus (for effect) of "Love Has Come To Town" under Tina's bass for alas, I was WAY on the band's side.
David could not stand Bongiovi and did not want him present whilst he recorded vocals, David informed me of this and I was the one who broke the news to Bongiovi (who did not care). Jerry has since remixed all of the Band's LPs for 5.1 etc. and he would be the one to know (from the track sheets) which of the tracks Bob played on. But geez, it's been 32 years....c'mon!
Oh... and as for the Bongiovi quotes in Greg Milner's "History" My lovely wife Amy found the book and the first thing she did was read me several paragraphs and I choked on the tremendous amount of BULLSHIT squatted out by Bongiovi! Mr. Milner should get a truthful source for the addendum that should be added to that chapter. I manned any razor blade that was wielded on "Psycho Killer" (at the band's request), and there are no ******* TYMPANI on "Sheena".
The only person who did not know what was going on during those sessions was Bongiovi himself.......I suppose I could go on but I must prepare dinner!
Drinks for my friends!.....cheers.....ed"
Like all things, the truth is probably in the middle. Regardless of what really happened, Milner's point in the book is valid, there is frequently a battle between the producer's concept of what the music should be and what the band wants to do.
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"But they are picky on the associated equipment. They are one inch thick MDF, ridiculously internally braced with no parallel surfaces for minimal coloration."
What amp preamp combo have you found works the best with them?
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His web page on his phone preamp, which I obviously forgot to post says he can offer step ups.
http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Transcendent_Sound_Phono_Preamp.html
From his webpage:
Total Performance:
These design features produce a noise figure of at least 75 dbA. This is outstanding for a tube phono preamp and exceeds conventional designs by at least 10 dbA if not 15. Gain is a whopping 52 dB. Consequently, the preamp can be driven by all but very low output moving coil cartridges. Step-up transformers can be added for these types of cartridges. Contact us for details as moving coil cartridges require special consideration when mated to a transformer. Connecting the Phono Preamp to the Grounded Grid Preamp creates a combined gain of 64 dB of very low noise amplification. By the way, the thing sounds pretty darn good.
Easy Assembly:
The circuitry is contained on two circuit boards, one for the power supply and one for the preamp. Very little point-to-point wiring is required. Assembly time should be less than 6 hours.
Power Requirements
Specifications:
Signal to Noise Ratio: Greater than 75 dBA.
Gain: 52 dB.
Max Signal Out: 20 volts RMS.
Output Impedance: 1000 ohms.
Input Impedance: 47 k Ohms.
Tube Compliment: 4-6C45Pi, 2-12AX7A
Dimensions Overall: 15'W by 11'D by 4 1/4'H.
115V or 230V, 50-60Hz, 30 watts.
Weight: 10 pounds.
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Sounds like my plans … Del Taco (of course), turn on the game, turn off the sound, grab a guitar, forget about the game.
Now if it were the Raiders it would be a different story !.....There would be Del Taco at the party.
Im with you there Dtel
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"The people who helped me, in order, were:
dtel
pzannucci
russ69
Garyrc
Coytee
Crown1
CECAA850
and finally
the forum member formerly known as speakerfritz"
That is not at all surprising.
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On my account, the search is limited to the last 1,000 posts. However, if you click on topics, it filters out all posts except ones you started.
I found my original post on the Klipsch forums:
Posted 12 March 2011 - 06:23 PM
I have a very large gathering room. The ceilings are 20', and the room dimensions are 50' X 50'. I currently have an Integra Receiver with 110 watts/ channel, and Paradigm Cinema 220's and a Paradign 12" powered sub and a 55" flat panel TV on the wall. This setup is OK when a group just wants to sit and watch a show or a movie, but when we want to turn the volume up, the system just doesn't hit hard enough.
I want to be able to turn on some AC/DC, Aerosmith, or Stones, and wake up the 70's in a big way. I also LOVE the blues if that matters in your advice(s).
I am willing to just get a CD player, amp/preamp (tubetype if needed), and a couple big *** speakers, and have them separate from the 5.1 system.
What setup do you recommend I buy to fill this room? What should I spend? ( I do have money, but I don't like throwing it away needlessly.)
The people who helped me, in order, were:
dtel
pzannucci
russ69
Garyrc
Coytee
Crown1
CECAA850
and finally
the forum member formerly known as speakerfritz
Looking at this post brings me back. What a welcome reception. This has been my experience ever since.
Thank you all for all of your help over the years. You are the greatest forum this in the known universe.
I went and read that thread, how great. What happened to Speakerdritz? Guess he is one listed as "guest."
What speakers are you running in the shop now?
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What cartridge will you be using?
Here is a link to the Transcendent page with specs.
Travis
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Some great suggestions on here, as usual. I actually had this issue with some mono blocks, tired the usual troubleshooting, cheeter, plugs, etc. One you could hear slightly from 5' away. The othwr was dead quiet.
I finally called Craig and he had me try a couple of things, nothing, and then he had me swap the amps connections at back of preamp and I was doing that and felt slight amount of juice through the IC and he said, "remove the bottom plate and I will have you look for some things." I said "no way B+ and I don't mix they are on the way to you, let me know."
Long story short, there was a cold solder joint of a wire that tied to ground. He couldn't believe that it was that it wasn't screaming hum because it did when he hooked it up to his speaker. I was running it through power conditioner on an isolated line, so I may have help on that.
I would have never found and it would have driven me crazy. Craig sent it back "no charge."
Sometimes it is the equipment, I admire the guys here that know enough on how to figure that out. Several people had hum problems with DX 38s and a "patch" was finally developed for that after more than two or three people were experiencing the same thing.
I hopes yours is a simple and easy solution.
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Happy Birthday to the two of you.
Looking forward to seeing you again soon DD.
Travis
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I'm full of inconsistencies!
You made a great post in the "what's in your audio future" thread talking about the tactile experience of listening to vinyl, the artwork, the gatefolds, and the permanence of ownership. I just assumed that preference applied to all entertainment in your life - books especially - and so I found it amusing to see you hoping for a Kindle version.My mistake. I thought Michael found it ironic that I would buy a digital book.
This is good stuff guys, way more significant than a mere history.
I was an early adopter on Kindle, because the nature of my reading habit is impulsive. I've downloaded books in the middle of the night because I get to thinking about some author or subject that suddenly interests me. That benefit quickly outweighed all the digital downside!
Someone bought me a Kindle last August and I am loving it. I will never go back to a regular book for pleasure reading unless for some reason it isn't available on Kindle.
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Thank you for posting your review Josh, I thought I was the only one who went in for this kind of thing. I picked it up in '09 and I think your review is spot on.
I wish everyone who is interested in how and why audio sounds the way it does would read this book.
I think the historical aspect is very accurrate, my Dad was with Ampex when all of the stuff with tape, Col. Orr and audio recording started to take off in the US.
It has been awhile since I read it but I believe some of the technival information he obtained about Beatles recordings is in error, but there are two very definative sources on the technical aspects of Beatles recordings, which deck, techniques, etc. if people want to delve into that.
I tend to buy up everyrhing regarding the history of recoring music, especially the tape era. I have a few other reccomendations if someone really likes this kind of stuff and wants to dig deeper.
Thanks again for a great review.
Travis
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Come to think of it, this amp put out some wierd waves. 211s with mercury rectification
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I have only seen that after consuming peyote or mescaline.
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Bass atenuation can take place anywhere in the recording chain. A 6 or 12db 40 hz high pass filter is typically place on the bass guitar but it depend if it from AMP or DI or combo of both. KICK drum can be anywhere from 30hz to 50 hz and will be attenuated so it is not lost in the bass line.
Every microphone has a unique frequency response curve, some with bass boost, some not.
Most bass and drum lines are mixed with use of high pass filters to obtain a clear mix of kick drum and bass line. Thwre are multiple techniques on where to add add and where to subtract to avoid mud.
At mastering, if wverything was done properly at mixing, they just sequence, edit, put in fades and cut flat. More likely, something is not 100% and can be improved with eq.
If mastering for vinyl they have to look at whether bass attenuation is necessary to fit record on one side without having grooves slammed up against each other. They may have to do low pass filter at upper frequencies to protect cutter head, even if helium cooled.
The big problem is like in the case of your excellent Vannelli example. The of original vinyl of that lp is excellent, mastered by Bernie Grundman, one of the best in the business. Unfortunately, later on some poor guy had to master it for Cd and, based on your curve, it appears he was given what is referred to as the EQd limited master, the vinyl master, the one with the bass cut and the upper end boosted. This tape was recorded right from the cutter head amplifier outputs so that it could be sent to other pressing facilities. These were readily available, as opposed to 2 track mixdown tape, and this is all the CD mastering guy had to work with. Based on your curves and the era I am pretty sure they did that cd from the EQd limited master.
What you are observing has been known and talked about for a number of years on the recording, mixing and mastering forums, and the Hoffman forum.
People like Barry Diament (about the biggest name there is in quality cd mastering and remastering) has talked about loudness wars, high rez digital, and possibility for audiophile quality in mixes and masters being the rule rather than the exception.
I don't think it is possible to tell where attenuation occurs in the chain unless you know a lot of factors, drum head used, bass recorded on amp with mikes, what kind of mike or was DI used, were the bass and drums recorded seperately, or in some cases together "live" etc. The hardest part of mixing a rock/pop band is getting the bottom end right. Keeping the kick and bass seperate, coherent and clean.
Often the masterer gets it and it is smeered mud and fixed in the tape, pre eq and limIter applied and the masterer has to try and save it. Sometimes he or she can, and sometimes you just cant polish a turd.
If you look at any top mastering services website (not people working out of their garage) but mainstream people like Grundman, Ludwig, Saxe (both), and Diament they typically have what they would like to do their job properly.
Travis
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Other overpaid jobs, in my opinion: 1. Reality TV show "actors" 2. Producers of reality tv shows
Are you saying the Kardashians don't work hard for their money?
Well I wasn't going to mention any names, but that was who instantly popped to mind when I thought of that category.
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Click on or scroll down to:
AUDIO CABLES-THE ULTIMATE TEST OF INTEGRITY
http://www.high-endaudio.com/magaz.html
I find myself agreeing with this guy's efforts the majority of the time
He has produced a ton of words, very entertaining
Thank you for posting this, I had not run into him before. I like his quotes that introduce a subject. You gotta love a guy who is willing to send you his hearing test results and charges $10 per question at Ask Arthur.
I wish his interests in music were more like mine as he had some great information on recordings.
He has a long writeup on K Horns, and I think he has a lot of greats things to consider about them. I wonder if he sold them.
It is a breath of fresh air when some one in the industry can speak without feeling beholden to anyone.
Travis
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Your right Dave, it is extremely dangerous work out in the oil patch.
"Number-crunching by the Mary Kay O'Connor Process Safety Center at the Texas A&M Engineering Experiment Station shows the oil field's outsize fatality rate: 24.2 out of 100,000 oil and gas extraction workers were killed nationwide last year, compared with 1.7 of 100,000 involved in chemical manufacturing."
Quote above from this Houston Chronicle article.
The average oil field worker made 108K in 2013.
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Other overpaid jobs, in my opinion:
1. Reality TV show "actors"
2. Producers of reality tv shows
3. Professional athletes
4. Head valet at Las Vegas casinos
5. Mutual fund managers who can't beat S&P 500 or other relevant index
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I, for one, am over paid. Well at least according to this survey.
Full article is located here
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-overpaid-and-underpaid-jobs-2014-1
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Have you come across any CDs that either didn't have rolled off bass or the hump?
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You can't violate the laws of physics. All vinyl will have 12 db less bass than CD/DVD's because of the required space between the grooves. I believe someone mentioned this earlier. And if you try to overcome it you will end up with garbage bass.
JJK
Please elaborate.
Analogman
I am interested in this as well. My understanding is that earlier vinyl mastering had tu utilize limiters on the high frequencies so you didn't burn up the cutting head, but eith helium cooled cutters such as Neumann and Westrex. On the low end the only thing that prevents long ultralos passages is space, even with RIAA eq. The Teldec recording of 1812 overture has sections recorded at 8hz, the cannons. All the way up to 35 khz. Having said thay, most mastering engineers mill mix everything below a certain frequency as mono to save space. Sone choose 70 hz at tge point to tie it together.
But vinyl is perfectly cabeable of being recorded between 20 hz and 20khz, at least they are with Helium cooled cutting heads. The Neuman SX 74 heads are flat plus/minus 0.5 db form 20 hz to 20 khz dead flat, -3db will get you down to about 7hz and up to 25 or 30 khz 2nd and thrid order harmonics.
The lp comes with a disclaimer I thought was ibterestibg when I bought it:
"The cannon shots captured on this LP are extremely difficult for most phono cartridges to track. The inability of your phono playback system to play these cannon shots is very typical and not an indication of either your cartridge or record being defective. Acoustic Sounds will not accept returns of this product for reasons of mistracking due to the cannon shots on this record."
My kind of warning. You should here the 1812 at about 110 to 110 dbs on Jubes.
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Thank you all.
I am going to get the MH. I have no experience with turntables past my Marantz 6170 back in the 80's. Therefore, a VPI or similar expensive TT makes little sense at this point and the "tweaking" scares the heck out of me.
You are really going to enjoy it. People that I know who have purchased them are still using them, some for over 8 years. I looked at that mojo cartridge and I am probably familiar with it without realizing it. It is a specially made Ortofon with a user replaceable stylus which makes life so simple and easy.
Really interested in hearing your impressions when you have it all hooked up.
Travis
Travis
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The Movie….American Sniper
in Lounge
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Saw it last night. I thought the story was excellent, and the individual, CPO Kyle, a true hero.
I wasn't to thrilled with the production. I didn't think it was all that great. Fake baby shots were obvious as well as the prosthetics. Certainly not to the level of Mystic River or J. Edgar.
The press said that Spielberg turned down the project because of budget constraints at Warners would not allow him to do the quality of picture he felt the story deserved, and to me it looks like he was right.