boom3
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Posts posted by boom3
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which brings up the point...when is Klipsch going to offer active electronics (including DSP) for the Heritage line?
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Our four cats have scratching posts, and each other, for their amusement. The grille cloths have not been clawed in many years..
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another cat entranced by Klipsch sound, on a spread placed for her comfort atop a Cornwall
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Were you bringing this to my attention? If so, thanks; if not, sorry for the presumption
Scott
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High Fidelity did a "review" of the LaScala in the 70s, I think. The published curve was really bad. PWK was able to closely duplicate the curve by putting a LaScala on a stool away from walls and putting the microphone behind the system. He raised so much hades that HiFi withdrew the review.
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On 6/21/2019 at 8:46 AM, artto said:
I believe you might find what you're looking for in The Absolute Sound's The Complete Guide to High End Audio by Robert Hartley, on page 157.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-High-End-Audio/dp/0978649362
Many speaker manufacturers, including Acoustic Research & Wharfedale performed these kind of live vs recorded demonstrations. The Bell Lab experiments in "telephony" did this back in the 1930's transmitting the sound of the orchestra to another concert hall equipped with sound reproduction equipment.
However, you'll find that when attending one of these live vs recorded demonstrations that the audience usually identifies the recorded sound as the live sound. As PWK said of an acquaintance of his who attended such a demonstration more than a half century ago, "the orchestra came in third".
Roger all. The public and audiophile expectations of reproduction have changed a lot since that monumental three-channel experiment in 1933. I am not sure if PWK attended it, but he included it in his first set of published papers and referred to it often.
Live orchestral concerts (to my ear/brain combination) offer more dynamic range and less imaging than a good quality home system. Most of what we think of as "imaging" in speakers is upper midrange beaming. At a live orchestral concert, our eyes tell our ears that the woodwinds are on one side and the brass is on the other. With eyes closed, it is harder to tell in a hall that is many times the volume of a typical home listening room.
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On 7/7/2019 at 7:01 AM, PrestonTom said:
Interesting project, but you should tell us more. For starters, are these horn loaded speakers? Are there constraints on how large they can be?
No, these area not horn loaded. The first draft has footprint of 17 x 19 inches (100 liter class bass box) and that is the largest free-standing size I can tolerate.
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On 7/7/2019 at 10:24 AM, Chris A said:
There are three immutable requirements in my experience to achieve outstanding imaging and soundstage when you constrain the listening distance to 7 feet and the room size to something like 11x14x8 feet:
- all drivers within 1/4 wavelength at their crossover frequency (implying time alignment to within 90 degrees of phase).
- (very) controlled early reflections--such as having a "reflection-free zone" that achieves -15 to -20 dB first reflections from around the loudspeakers down to ~200 Hz or lower. This can be achieved through a LEDE control room-type of design with lots of absorption in the front of the room and lots of diffusion one the remaining walls at the back of the room--probably effective down to below 500 Hz. It can also be achieved through using full-range controlled directivity loudspeakers that can be placed in the room corners.
- having loudspeakers that exhibit very low phase distortion--less than 360 degrees of phase rotation throughout the audible band.
The easiest way to achieve all three conditions in my experience is to use full-range controlled directivity loudspeakers--such as multiple entry horns (MEHs) with fairly narrow coverage (~60 degrees horizontal, vertical), and absorption just around the mouth exit of the MEHs to control early midrange reflections. You can look at Bill Waslo's spreadsheet-based approach to do the parts layout and cuts for a full-range-sized MEH. You'll probably need a DSP crossover to make the crossover EQ problem tractable--but that really goes for any DIY loudspeaker having more than one way, IMO.
Dipole loudspeakers will all have backwave issues that will force you to move to a somewhat contorted position near the rear wall and the loudspeakers about 1/3 of the way from the front wall to the back wall, and positioned almost in the middle of the room in order to get reasonable imaging (and I wouldn't wish that kind situation on anyone).
Your idea to use a LEDE approach is about the only way to use non-MEH (i.e., without full-range directivity) loudspeakers, but it will require covering almost all of the front and side walls with absorption and the remaining walls with diffusers (see page 495 of the book Recording Studio Design (3rd ed.) by Philip Newell). This is a lot of room treatment, but one that I've experienced as necessary in a listening room of the size that you mention.
Chris
Thanks Chris. The problem I have is that a lot of wall space its already spoken for for bookshelves. Bookshelves are mediocre absorbers and lousy diffusers. I have resolved not to have any more "dead storage" in my study but that may only be dream, it may only be possible to reduce the unused items and not eliminate them. The room is now tiled so it is very lively.
Another pal suggested that in that room I might be happier with flat panels, he was suggesting Maggies.I have not heard any in years and with the drivers I have I would prefer not to spend a lot of money on store-bought speakers. My initial design has footprint of 17 x 19 inches (100 liter class bass box). That footprint is about the largest I can tolerate in free-standing speaker. I will look at the links you provided,thanks for all ideas!
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On 7/7/2019 at 8:09 AM, wvu80 said:
There are several interesting things going on in your post.
I had to look up LEDE. That likes like a very specific procedure so I can't offer an intelligent comment on it, but in general room treatments are a good idea. Is your restored study a converted bedroom as mine is? Having clothing or some other item, even a towel in the closet helps to break up reflections..
Re: your DIY speaker drivers, let me ask without being snippy, do you know what you're doing? Have you made DIY speakers before? Do you have knowledge and skill how to put together a proper enclosure or do you need a flat pack? If you do, I'm jealous. I am a flat pack kind of guy myself.
Do you know how to properly design and make crossovers? That is a very high level skill IMO and again, if you can do that your knowledge and skills are above my ability to help. Still, I'd like to hear what you have in mind. Big speaker, little speaker? What drivers do you have?
Yes to all questions
I have pair of Great Heil AMTs and two Visaton 12 inch woofers, plus a couple of Phillips AD5060 series mids from the dear departed Dahlquists. Final config not decided. The Heils like sharp crossovers so if I go 2 way I will probably go with 4th order L-R, served me well before.
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A clear day and a remarkably clear airliner window as we approached O'Hare...
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Hi,
My restored study is 11 x 14, and before the storm I had Dahlquist DQ-10s in there. They were very good in the study for close listening, but they are history now. I have thought about Klipsch products to replace them, but I also have several drivers laying around that need to be put into service, so I will home-build a pair of speakers. My desk will only be 7 feet away from the speakers at best. The room has 8 foot ceilings.
My question is: In a room of this size and shape, is there any point trying to implement live-end dead-end (LEDE)? The floor is now tile (no more carpet for us!) and as you might expect, the room is very lively. Pre-storm, I rarely cranked it up beyond about 90 dB and usually listened in the 70-85 dB range.
Thanks for any ideas
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My opera-loving mother had a big picture of him on her icebox. I teased her that it was her erotica
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Well, I'm not sure I've found Nirvana, audio or otherwise, but my hearing is on a plateau and it's down hill from there. The various audio systems I use are all more than adequate. I do wish to have bass horns someday, simply for the very low distortion and dynamics, which I can appreciate even if my hearing rolls off about 13 Khz or so. So, I've invested what I need to, and aside from some tinkering and experimentation for own curiosity, this is it.
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Well, her mum lived to be 101
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my perspective
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There are accelerometers made for shipping high value items that report location, sorry I do not have a model at hand...
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I replaced the caps in my 86 Corn IIs but left the autoformer and inductor alone. The factory boards are crudely made, shockingly so. The cap replacement is the most cost effective way of making permanent fix.
Replaced all the caps with MKP types-the tweeter and mid caps with WIMAs (the little red rectangular units favored by guitarists) and the 68 uF woofer shunt with a Solen. The recapping really made no diff to the sound, nor did I expect it to. Recapped for long-term stability, once & done.
Esthetically, I've certainly seen better crossovers than the stock. One caution about replacing inductors. The DCR of the stock inductor should have been factored into the system design. I'd be astounded if Klipsch did not do that given the level of engineering talent (Keele, Gillum, Hunter, Delgado, etc) they've had over the years. Replacing stock inductors with "lower DCR" types may upset the system's alignment. Another reason I left my stock inductors in place.
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On 5/8/2019 at 6:53 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:
WHY?? Unless you will be using a Yamaha, Xilica, etc. DSP Active Crossover instead of the the passive one in the Khorn, there is NO benefit to bi amping if you are still using the passive network. Going the active route allow you to introduce time delays in the mid and tweeter horns for greater phase coherence. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.
That being said, I used TI based chip amps on my Khorn Jubilees. They use a common/cheap 19 Volt Laptop power supply and are the size of two packs of cigarettes. They come with gain/volume controls which can be useful for having maximum rotational resolution on your pre amp volume control.
Ummm...why the tape on the level controls?
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If we go back to PWK's original paper on the Klipschorn (which is in my storage unit right now) , it looks to me like he set the taper rate not for the physical length of the horn as it is, but as it would be if it was a straight horn. In other words, for the horn "magnified" (my term) by the corner .
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One of my favorite authors, William Manchester, wrote an excellent and very balanced biography of MacArthur, "American Caesar". Also, he wrote the best book on the individual experiences of a man at war, "Goodbye Darkness" in which he interweaves his story of being a Marine in the Pacific theatre with his dealing with PTSD after the war.
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3 minutes ago, WMcD said:
Maybe they were thinking of a Patrician IV. Smile.
WMcD
Interesting that Paul never tried (that I know) to one-up the Patrician. I did read a Dope from Hope where Paul wrote that if he went to more powerful drivers, deep nulls would show up in the response not to mention even bigger cabinets. PWK never understood (nor do I) why a home listener would not be content with a maximum output of 121 dB.
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One nuance of the design video deserves some comment. The Klipschorns, when tucked into corners, look smaller than they appear straight out of the box. Emphasizing the "stance" by the riser (which protects that nice veneer from vacuum cleaners and feet) and pulling out from the corner (not my notion of proper operation, enclosed back not withstanding) makes them look bigger, more in-you-face.
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Could this extra "mystery length" be the width of the front panel where the two paths join?
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I wonder if horns are subject to the "end correction" practice (?) (theory?) that is used to fine-tune vents and T/Ls. The end correction for vents is usually assumed to be the length that is equivalent to the circumference of the vent. In other words, the mass of air existing the vent is, for some distance, still about as compact as it is inside the vent, and therefore the effective vent is longer than the calculated vent, meaning the vent tube must be shortened.
I would think this would not apply to the Klipschorn, unless we count the distance across the front of the bass bin where the two horn paths converge.
Where is the Hi-Fi Marketplace Really Going?
in Lounge
Posted
I see a shift to the low-fi by many people out of convenience and a continued minority high-end market, some of which, as we all have observed here, spins off into the la-la land of pseudoscience and any price the traffic will bear. Which leaves the middle, where most of us started out, POOGE'ing our Pioneers and Kenwoods and Brand X speakers...and working our way up to better stuff.The middle I see starved for components that are actually good values-there are some but the market tries to ignore them or use them as loss leaders. When Stereophile describes a $15,000 pair of speakers as a bargain, you know "where their head is at." And yes, I am talking about the infamous Klipschorn review...not taking issue with the product, just the perspective.
What kind of blows my mind is that there are so many ultra-high-end brands out there now. But there is a market to support (most) of them and a magazine corps that will yap their praises and would not be caught dead reviewing a speaker under $1K or an amp under $3K.
It is debatable whether this reflects growing income disparities in the West in general, or that this "cost disparity" is just a coincidental echo driven by the rise of cheap and easy digital media.