markus111

Well I finally got the JBL tweeters - they must have been on the slow boat to China and back! I hooked them up to the stock ALK's, replacing the T35. What a difference! I cannont believe how good these sound. They are running a little hot, so I'll have to pad them down by about 2db. But even hot, these sound great! I expected the treble to sound better. What surprised me was how much better the whole midrange sounded. I've had some harshness with the midrange that I noticed, even when I had the T35's disconnected. I put the JBL's in, and the midrange harshness goes away. How is that possible? Mark

---------------- On 4/25/2005 6:05:00 AM Al Klappenberger wrote: Dean, YOU DOPE! I mean the SQUAWKER output will be 29 dB down at 250 Hz!!! Mark, Removing the woofer inductor won't di it! YOu need to disconnect the squawker. How to do that depends on what network you have. If you have the AA, just remove the cable from the barrier block. If you have one of the AK series you will have to unscrew the driver. You could also drape a nich thick blanket over the top section such that it completely covers the squawker horn mouth. The idea is to have the woofer ONLY make the sound. Al K. ---------------- I should have clarified that - I disconnected the woofer from the network and hooked the woofer directly to the amp, with no squawker or tweeter.

Just built a 2 way 12db crossover to try these out. I have 802-16g drivers, so I was able to use the klipsch autoformer with a 10 ohm swamping resistor. Damn, these are sounding good! I only have one finished so far, but the sound is really smooth. I can't wait to try it on both. Mark

Okay - I did a bunch more measurements. With the woofer run full range (no inductor) the hole is still there, although not as bad! It looks like it may be the room plus the driver interaction perhaps? I tried the mic in several locations, and not surprisingly the response changed at each location. When the mic was 6 inches off the floor, the response was great - so at least I've got that going for me I actually wish this was purely an electrical issue, as those I can fix! Room modes are a big black hole in my understanding. The room is definitely not the most khorn friendly. It is approximately 12 x 20, and the khorns are on the short wall. This is unfortunatly the way that they have to stay if I want to stay married. They are currently toed out away from the corners. I am using false corners with bottoms that I built out of 1" pine. As I mentioned earlier, it makes no difference if the horns are pushed and sealed to the corners or not - the hole is still there. Mark

---------------- On 4/23/2005 10:10:10 AM DeanG wrote: Looking at the size of the Hartfields in relationship to the room size, the room doesn't really look too small for them. Maybe they just aren't a very good sounding speaker. ---------------- The room size was probably not the major issue. The A7's at the beginning of this post sounded great in the same size room. Part of the problem (at least for me) was that he just had these way too loud! I could only sit there for about a minute at a time. The bass was incredible - I would rank the bass sound as being better than the Khorn. But the midrange and treble was ear piercing. Sibilance like you wouldn't believe. And there was really no reason that these should have sounded so bad. I looked in back, and I think he has the most expensive driver that TAD makes on the horn. It was huge! I kept wondering "why don't these sound better?" I think the answer is that it's his presentation of them. I don't think he's doing himself any favors by the way he is demoing these. Maybe the crossover was peaky. I'm not sure what the answer is, but by all rights these things SHOULD havd sounded incredible. And it made me happy to come home and listen to my el-cheapo Klipschorns! Mark

---------------- On 4/23/2005 11:01:09 PM 3dzapper wrote: Dean, did't you post a graphic once about a pair of 68uF nonpolarized caps across the woofer? Rick ---------------- I thought I remembered a post like this also. I'm having a helluva time searching on this forum!

---------------- I think it is more likely to be a measurement error or a room problem. ---------------- I kind of wondered about that. I'm using the behringer PEQ 8024 to measure. When I put the measurement mic right up to the horn mouth, the response is pretty flat right out to 500Hz or so. It's when I put the mic anywhere else in the room that I see the dip. But -10db seems pretty huge. Isn't that 1/3 of the volume? I may have some nasty room nodes, but I'll be darned if I can figure out how to get rid of them. There's only so many places that you can move khorns, sofas, etc. Mark

I've read about the notorious bass dropout in the Klipshorn being somewhere in the 400Hz vicinity. When I measure my Khorns (one at a time) from 1 meter and at listening position, I actually get a giant hole in the bass response centered at 250Hz. At 400Hz, it is even with the rest of the midrange. I have tried it pushed into the corner, away from the wall, using a false corner, nothing seems to make much difference. Does anyone else have this same symptom? It got me to thinking about the evolution of the crossovers. In the AA, there was a single 2.5mH inductor. In the AK-2, there was a 4mH inductor and 140uF cap. In the AK-3, there was a 4mH inductor and 100uF cap. Looking at pictures of the AK-4, it looks more complex yet. Are these crossover evolutions an attempt to fill the hole, or are they due to different bass drivers? What effect do the different low pass filters have on response? Mark

The blacktop goo is now dry - it doesn't look too bad. It's a blacker black than the horn itself, but it's not noticable from my seating position. The horns do sound a little better. I especially notice it on sibilance on female vocals. There is one particular Enya song with a lot of "s" words in it. Before, every S would blow my hair back. Cutting the vanes and damping tamed those way down. It still rings with a dull thunk sound when tapped, but I think even this will go away once I mount it in the baffle. Mark

It looks like he's getting ready to shoot himself out of that thing.

I wonder what the frequency response is. If it could do 20hz to 20k, you could have a personal 6 inch Klipschorn. Bet my wife would approve.... Mark

Ok, I did it - I cut the kerfs on my 511b's. It was pretty easy to cut them out with a sawzall. Once cut, the horn rang like the liberty bell when you tapped it! I filled in the gaps with rubberized blacktop repair caulk. It's not the prettiest job, but at least it's black, and it it doesn't look too bad from a distance. No worse than the big ugly welds that were there before, anyway. Once the caulk was in place, it made these horns dead! It's more like tapping a piece of wood now, rather than a metal horn. The caulk has to cure for 48 hours, at which point it is supposed be dry yet flexible. I'll report back on Sunday as to what the acoustic differences are. Mark

---------------- On 4/20/2005 6:28:53 AM r.cherry wrote: some folks are good wood workers, thus being able to make them shine again. my worry would be if there was that little respect for the cabinets that the guts got pounded as well. then they could still be parted out. ---------------- I collect and restore antique radios. Some of the guys I've met WON'T buy something unless it's absolutely trashed. They get the same kind of kick out of restoring them that vintage car guys do. Plus, the guy bidding on the cornwalls may live 5 miles away from the seller, and thus not have to deal with shipping.

Hi Fisherman, I'm sorry to hear about your hearing loss. I had a flu virus attack my inner ear, and it took out 36db out of my left ear and shaved a bit off of the right. At first, I couldn't stand to listen to my system, because the loss was sudden and I realized right away what I was missing. Over time, my brain "filled in" the missing information in my left ear. If I cover my right, I again realize how little I actually hear with my left. But when I don't think about it, I really can "hear" what I used to, and enjoy listening in stereo. It's absolutely amazing what the brain can do. I keep a decibel meter handy, and never crank the volume much over 90db at my listening position. This is actually lower than I used to listen to music. It's vital to keep the volume under control in order to maintain your hearing for as long as you can. Give yourself a chance to get used to the hearing aids - it took me a few months for this change to set in. Maybe even a year - I don't remember anymore. Don't sweat the extreme highs - as mentioned, there really isn't much musical information up there anyway. Mark

---------------- "Sometimes I wonder if this really effects the sound anyway and if the compression driver can actually transfer enough energy to a horn to excite it enough to ring." ---------------- I know that when I damped my K-400 horns, it made a very audible difference. It tamed the upper midrange down quite a bit. I saw a guy's setup at Audiokarma where he damped his 511b horns with a spray-on product called "quiet coat". He had his horns out in the open, and when i tapped them they were pretty dead. His system sounded very good. Mark

---------------- On 4/19/2005 6:32:20 PM Al Klappenberger wrote: Marvel, If Warren said "I would not however recommend that you attempt integrate the filter into the alk.", we finally agree on something! Al k. ---------------- That works for me! Thanks again guys for all of your advice. Mark

---------------- On 4/19/2005 12:35:38 PM DeanG wrote: The numbers do tell the whole story -- you just have to find the right numbers. ---------------- I'm sure that's true, it's just that no can agree what the right numbers are. If you want to see experts duke it out, just bring up the subject of distortion profiles to amp builders! They have been debating that one for 50 years, and they are still giving each other black eyes. Mark

---------------- It has to very frustrating to the average person trying to improve his system when so-called "experts" disagree totally. He is left completely to his own judgment. Who do you beleive? ---------------- Frustrating? No, it's actually a lot like being at work. I design automotive controllers, and it's a good day that there are only two experts disagreeing. Who do I believe? I'm not sure you could pay me to stir the pot with that stick! I have to believe that you both have valid points, as you both have obviously put a lot of thought and work into this. And you both have people who support you in this forum and elsewhere. In the end, I'll have to let my ears be the judge (and my wifes, I suppose ). Audio is such a subjective endeavor that it's amazing that anyone can agree on anything. I've stood right next to someone listening to a system that he thought was great and I couldn't stand - and vice versa. And the numbers never tell the whole story. If they did, then everyone would buy the amp with the lowest possible distortion figures, and no one would even consider something such as a single ended tube amp. I really do appreciate all of the comments given, and I'm looking forward to experimenting with these tweeters. Mark

---------------- On 4/18/2005 10:34:16 AM TBrennan wrote: Mark---I was kidding. Actually the best 511s are the very late models (blackies) that have the unwelded webs with rubber damping in the unwelded gaps. The greenies look VERY kool, were I going to use exposed 511s I'd seek greenies and kerf the web welds myself. Jammin Jersey seems to be a good source of greenies. ---------------- Phew! Thought I was going to have to get special acoustical paint I have read somewhere (probably here) about people sawing the web apart and damping the cut. Has anyone tried this? I have these horrible visions of getting caulk to stick to everything but the newly cut gap in the web. Mark

Al, John, Sorry - I didn't mean to start a war! I respect both of your opinions, as you both have obviously done much more work than I have. Like most on this forum, I'm simply trying to get the best sound possible out of my beloved Klipschorns. ---------------- The element values in the tweeter filter are as they are to be compatible with the squawker filter associated with it. To change them for any reason is to mess up the smooth transition between the tweeter filter and the squawker filter. They are an inseperable pair! ---------------- That's kind of what I was looking for WRT the ALK. I'll leave well enough alone, and not mess up my ALK. I may still have to try John's filter with my AA's though. I'm a pathological tweaker - please don't hurt me... Mark

---------------- On 4/13/2005 9:55:43 PM TBrennan wrote: 511B "Greenies" sound better than "Blackies". ---------------- Any idea why? I have a pair of the black ones. I've never seen a green pair face to face - only in pictures. Mark

Hi Everyone, Thanks for all of your comments. The bass and midrange are the same as the ALK. The tweeter portion has been replaced by John Warren's JBl mod. It is basically an 18db high pass followed by a 1.5db l-pad followed by an LCR. The LCR reduces an impedance rise at 4.7 kHz. The LCR reduces the average impedance of the tweeter to 6 ohms, and the filter and l-pad are calculated for 6 ohms. Will this scheme mess with the ALK bass and midrange? Please forgive my drawing abilities - I can't draw for beans Thanks, Mark

This is one thread with graphs of the 9khz glitch. Apparently only about 25% of the push-terminal type k55's had it. It was fixed with the solder terminal type. http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=40781&forumID=71&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={B1F86BB6-FABE-4DF6-9C61-EA6F71B4823E} Mark

Hi All, I have a pair of the JBL 2404 baby cheeks on the way, and was giving some thought as to how to integrate them into my khorns with ALK crossovers. I figure I'll first try it the straightforward way - replace the t35 with the jbl. The second option would be to build John Warrens tweeter crossover with the LCR, and tap that into the ALK after the 40mF cap. Has anyone tried this? The LCR crossover apparently changes the average impedance of the tweeter to 6 ohms. Is this a concern? Would this franken-crossover idea mess up the rest of the ALK? Any experiences or insight would be appreciated. I'm really looking forward to trying these out! Mark

I just returned from the Audiokarma in Southfield, Mi. where I had a chance to listen to a lot of good speakers and systems. It's a fun event - a lot of audio enthusiasts with some great gear to show off. One guy had a pair of Altec A7's that he did a great restoration on, and those were some fine sounding speakers. There was also a pair of JBL Hartsfield reproductions with TAD drivers. Beautiful speakers, with great imaging and bass response. But at $20K for the pair, it made me realize how good a deal my Khorns are. I'll tell you what - the JBLs are NOT 5 times better than my Klipschorns! PWK really did an amazing job of getting great sound out of some very modest components. Mark