PrestonTom
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Posts posted by PrestonTom
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Congratulations on your new speakers.
When I upgraded to Klipsch, I simply contacted the support folks at Klipsch. They e-mailed some material/manuals and answered all my questions. They are very friendly and professional staff.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Rplace,
There are actually many foks doing SS mods and upgrades. If you do a goggle search on "Hafler upgrades" you will get a good start.
Someone mentioned Musical Concepts, they are certainly pretty well known, especially for their Hafler mods.
In general I would be a bit wary. Many of the mods concentrate on beefing up the power supply, Since you are running Klipsch, there should not be a problem since the load is quite efficient and the impedance does not go very low. The other caveat is that many of the mods involve changing the bias. If this is done in isolation, there may be some potential problems.
Another concern is that tweaking for Klipsch speakers is a different beast because of the efficiency of the Heritage line. I have noticed more differences between amps when running K-Horns due to noise, hiss, hum & distortion (at low output levels).
Good Luck & keep us posted,
-Tom
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Seriously, why bother?
If you are listening to music then 2-channel is fine (perhaps supplemented with an additive center). When you go beyond that, then you are in the world of gimmicks and effects.
You have a wonderful set of speakers, enjoy them!
If you have upgrade-itis, and it is understandable, then why not spend some time on room treatments and tweaking the speaker placement. As I recall, you were a candidate for a false corner.
If the disease is serious, then look for a very clean and quiet amp (the K-Horns are ruthless in revealing distortion, hiss and hum)
There really is no need to mess things up with extra speakers.
Good Luck,
-Tom (I guess I am a purist)
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I think it is sad that courtesy and decency have become out-of-fashion.
It really does not matter whether the forum is electronic or not. When it sinks to the level of thoughtless comments toward our host, then we are not being very gracious guests. That is what we are: guests.
This forum is being provided for our amusement. What do we do? We abuse, we point fingers and say it was the other guy who started it, we get into esoteric word games when we don't want to acknowledge our thoughtless behavior, and finally we resort to the excuse that since this electronic so we don't need to be humane.
I have learned a great deal here. I have unfortunately learned a great deal about another side of human nature also.
-Tom
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I agree with the above. Avoid the sanding, it is too easy to mess up and it is frequently an ineffective way to remove the stain (if in fact there was any stain).
Although polyuretahne is convenient, it is really not furniture grade material. Oils or lacquers are best for that. Incidentally, at this point, additional coats of oil (danish or BLO) will not further darken the finish (unless it is pigmented).
Good Luck,
-Tom
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I am going to reference a thread I started about false corners.
It provides a simple design for a false (half) corner that may be appropriate in your application. It is simpler than some of the others and also details how to use foam to get a tight seal. This is just one option. There are others that might be better....
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/516345/ShowPost.aspx
BTW, those are beautiful walnut cabinets
Good Luck,
-Tom
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This is an interesting question about the inside surface of the horn.
Anecdotally, I had the impression that the surface should be as smooth as possible. The analogy was from fluid problems, where you want to prevent "turbulence and eddys". If this is correct (and it may only apply to certain frequency regions), then a lacquer finish wold be great. My concern would be that at high frequencies the wave edge might have a different velocity due to the felt (or whatever). I am not sure what kind of distortion this might create. Remember, in one sense, the beauty of the horn is that is minimizes the impedance mismatch from the diaphragm to air (small volume at the small end of the throat) as the volume increases then the pressure changes. I am not sure the felt would be the best idea. As I am writing this, it is clear to me that there are probably some real issues that I am unaware of. The problem is getting a description that is not overly mathematical.
It sounds like an interesting project, and you are bound to learn quite a bit about physical acoustics!
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Congratulations on your K-Horns.
You have certainly received quite a bit of advice. Enjoy your speakers, they really are special.
I will note however, that Cal Blacksmith has given some very reasonable advice. You have some very efficient speakers and their impedance does not go very low (won't drain current from the amp). I would not worry about getting a large amp, however I would worry about an amp that provides very clean power. Otherwise, any distortion, hiss, or hum will be revealed. Also, believe me a 65 watt amp will not clip when driving K-Horns. The HK amp should do fine
As Cal implied, at this point your biggest gains will definitely come from properly placing them in the room.
Good luck,
-Tom
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I agree with Tom Mobley.
However, in either case I think it will be difficult to get a clean edge (even and with no chipping). Also you do not want to do anything dangerous on the table saw. The work must be fully supported at all times.
An alternative would be NOT to mimic the 60deg cuts. Use an easier joint if the cabinet is going to be veneered. Or use a "1 by" strip as a vertical member and placed in front. This can be done with a bit of design to look pleasing and will cover up whatever joint you have now hidden.
Good Luck,
-Tom -
I'm curious, why not use 4th order crossovers? IIRC, their expensive, but the best sounding because they keep everythin in phase while having a very smooth xover. But they do drain what, -3dB out of your output? I'm wondering why use the extreme slope over a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley filter. i'm not trying to bash deans design, but won't you get some really obvious modulation distortion from the tweeters resonance? Also, wouldn't having a first order xover make everything out of phase? so if your not in the "sweet spot" with each speaker equal distance from your ears, it'll sound lopsided and not evenly covered? -Joe
Joe,
This is an interesting point. A 4th order would get about 24 dB/octave (this is an approximation, of course), as you mentioned the phase shift is now comparable. With the correct CF and overlap, there would be many advantages and at a reasonable cost. As you point out the levels would need adjustment because of the insertion loss. This all seems very attractive.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Two comments.
First, the of 6dB per doubling of distance is only true in a free-field environment. That is in the absence of reflecting surfaces. In a living room, the drop off will be much less and it will also be frequency dependent.
Second, the issue of symphonic music being well-over 100 dB is misleading. It is certainly not at this level for a sustained period. Additionally, a dB number by itself is not very informative. It is a function of the bandwidth (and if or how it was weighted) and also if was integrated.
That is why these measurements should not be take to seriously. The details that went in to the measure are critical and are typically not well understood by the reader.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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I will confess that I did not get past page 7. I thought much of the thinking was muddled. I also thought much of the "evidence" was nonsense.
When performance is dismissed (either electrical or perceptual discrimination), then the flood gates open up for snake oil.
The reason I get disturbed by this is that there are a great number of folks who truly would enjoy great music reproduction. Unfortunately they get burden down in some very trivial, but very expensive, aspects of sound reproduction. This is great for Stereophile (and their like) and for the boutique manufacturers. Now they can sell stuff that is outrageously priced and of dubious value (where value is function of both performance and price) .
I am spoiled, I was able to get some K-Horns for a great price and I have complemented them with reasonable equipment. I get turned on every time I turn on the music. I wish others could have the same or a comparable experience. Sure, I will continue upgrading, but it will always be done in a sensible way. Believe me, the audio voodoo will not be driving the decision making.
I wish others could also enjoy well-recorded and well-reproduced music. However, there is a legion of detractors who will continue to confuse every issue and to exploit and misinform. In part it is driven by ignorance, in part by the placebo effect and other expectations. But this biggest part is profit. Make no mistake, it is simple greed behind so many of these audiophile myths.
Gee, what is the latest in cryogenically treating speaker cable ....? The logic from sterophile would be that a simple ABX-performance test in order to dismiss the nonsense is just somehow not right since it takes away from the "subtler experience".
Enough of my ranting for now.
Good luck,
-Tom
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I appreciate your problem in trying to decide.
Let me point out a few things that are probably obvious anyway. People get very used to the sound of their own speakers. They then judge other speakers in reference to their own. I am from the old school and believe that you should compare them to live music.
My next point is that "words" are not very good at describing the percepts. As an example, what is the frequency range of "deep bass"? I suspect that if you actually asked 5 people you would get 5 different answers. Further, if you gave those same 5 people a frequency generator, they would be surprised how far off their numerical estimates actually are compared to the sound that they thought was "80Hz".
Next point, a speaker is actually a part of a system, that is the "speaker-room system". All these speakers will sound better or worse depending how they are located in the room, the size of the room, and the geometry of the room and how it is furnished. You will notice that most of the comments that have been offered concern sonics occurring from about 400Hz and below, usually well below. Well these frequencies have wavelenghts exceeding 2.5 feet, (below 100Hz, then it is in excess of 10ft). With these long wavelengths, the room and the speaker position are absolutely critical. As such, one must take all these comments with a grain of salt. I believe the folks are truthful about what they are hearing; however, many of their comments may reflect the speaker-room system rather than the speaker itself.
Not all is lost, you have been made an offer to hear K-Horns. Go ahead and listen. See for yourself.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Moon,
Very nice!!!
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Jeff,
I had the same experience last night in Connecticut.
Admittedly, this is the holiday rush with many inexperienced staff running around, but Klipsch is not shown to its best advantage. Perhaps Klipsch is best experienced in conventional stereo store, rather than a warehouse setting. Or perhaps I am just a old guy remembering how things used to be ...
Good Luck,
-Tom
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John,
This is almost an urban legend: picking up a pair of K-Horns for next to nothing.
I agree with Jeff about removing the formica and applying some veneer. There are a number of choices and finishes that will make them look absolutely beautiful. If you have never done this before, it is not that difficult. Practice on something else first. There will some effort involved in getting the surface smooth and the corners & edges to have nice square & crisp surfaces. But it would be a fun project.
You will surely get advice about updating the crossovers. This can be as simple as a straight replacement of the capacitors, which is not that expensive. Additionally, and I am not sure about the vintage or how to test, sometimes the magnets may need to be re-charged. This seems to be especially true for the Alnico magnets on the tweeters. There are places who can do perform this. Others can chime in on this issue also.
But I am being pessimistic and I don't mean to be. These are a fantastic find, enjoy them. Imagine, something that is over 45 years old and all the excitement it is generating.
Good Luck,
-Tom
Forgot to mention - corners are critical (they will sound even better). If none are available, then building a false corner (or a half corner) is a good option. There are various plans/designs available that range from the simple to the more complex.
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That has a very cool effect!
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Dr Who, you're letting this measurement thing get to you. Without doubt certain acoustic models can give an idea of how a particular loudspeaker may work in a particular room. But the problem with any model, is that it is only as accurate as the parameters included for the sake of measurement. In addition, many acoustic models are not perfect. They are constantly being refined and improved. You go on about the importance of measurements, and I'm not going to dispute this necessity. I feel the need to point out however, that many high end loudspeaker designers tune by ear. The reason for this is that the materials used in the construction of the cabinets, transducers and crossovers have tolerances which may or may not be affected by their interaction with each other, and/or the environment they have to work in. And there may very well be other factors not fully understood and explained by current acoustic models. Loudspeaker design has moved on from the days when it was seen as a 'black art' - but not that far beyond. [
] Certainly the topic has drifted. But this issue of how much should we rely on measurement, especially as the first step, is of a personal interest to me.
It is probably best considered as a continuum. Clearly there are some folks who are toward one extreme and discount many of the advantages afforded by physical & performance measurement. Dr Who tends toward to the other end of the continuum, where measurement is the key.
Similar to Dr Who, I also favor the measurement approach. Quite a bit can be learned from this approach. Quite a bit of nonsense can also be avoided (the typical audiophile voodoo etc).
When the argument sinks to the level of name calling, then the Dr Who's of the world seem even more reasonable in their reliance on measurement rather than notions from the "black art".
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Jim,
I will respectfully temper (disagree with) my colleagues opinions.
Careful on the sanding, the outside ply is not very thick. Even if you do sand as much as possible, just short of going through the ply, the stain may still not come out (and you run the risk of sanding through the top ply).
Regarding the bleaching: my experience has been with hardwoods (esp oak). My bad luck has been that if you use bleach you run the risk of getting a purple discoloration. If you use oxalic acid (preferred method) then the course of events is that there is no bleaching then all of the sudden it becomes bleached far too much. The stuff is tricky to work with (at least for me).
Good luck,
-Tom -
Jim,
Sorry to hear the bad news about the cabinet. Things happen ....
Before you do anything. Please be very careful. The birch ply will not take much sanding - be very careful and do it very slowly. Are the cabinets otherwise unstained, was the birch raw?
I am not optimistic that you can make this problem disappear. Some judicious staining might do it if you are lucky
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Saltyhook,
It's an interesting issue.
First, a false corner (or half a corner) is not all that difficult to build. With a bit of creativity, you can actually get it to look acceptable (WAF ....).
I have both K-Horns (early 80s) and Cornwall 2s (mid 80s). My perspective concerns mostly with the low end response (the mids and highs will sound more similar rather than dis-similar between the K-Horn & Cornwalls). It is the lows that really differ (although I find the mids to sound a bit more nasal on the Cornwall).
The K-horns have a better, more accurate, and cleaner bass response. I believe this is a reflection of the greater efficiency that the corner loaded horn provides. While the Cornwall does not go as low (the very low end), it does have plenty of bass, but I do not consider it to be as clean sounding or as dynamic. It is difficult to describe the sound with words.
Before anyone jumps on me, the Cornwalls do sound good, very good. However, the K-Horns are something special. They also cost more. Typically, the Cornwalls will sell for about 600-800 and the k-Horns for about 1600-2400. Much of the variation is due to finish and condition (these prices do NOT include shipping, which is not trivial). There is also a great deal of variability in cost due to location. These are not easy to ship, and if you are the only guy nearby who is willing to pick them up, then you can frequently get a deal (in my case about half the normal used price - but you must be patient). Incidentally the top section of the K-Horn is easily removed (wing nuts) but the total weight per overall cabinet is about 160-170 lbs.
You are quite correct about the issue of placing the K-Horns in corners. It is critical. However, many folks ignore that proper positioning of a Cornwall is also important. It really is more than tossing them in the room and leaving space for whatever else....
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Kriton,
How do you know the finish was lacquer? If it was a homemade finish, who knows what they may have used (urethane or who knows what). You are probably correct in assuming the bumpiness was due to dust while it was drying (although, they may have done something to raise the grain - e.g., some water based product). I am only guessing at this point.
One way to spot lacquer is to see if it disolves in lacquer thinner (urethane will not).
It looks like there are a number of challenges with the drips, brown color and what not. You are very correct in being careful not to sand too much.
If the surfaces are not marred, are you comfortable in applying a veneer? This would open up a number of options for you. My experience with veneer is that the second time you do it, the results are quite abit better. So go ahead an practice on something else first.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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I would wait a few months. The cabinets appear to be in good condition. However I agree with the above comments about holidays and heating prices.
When I got my Cornwalls (2s in oiled oak & pretty good condition) several months ago, I had been following the prices on eBay etc. Your asking price of $825 is a bit on the high end but certainly not unheard of.
Why not wait a bit.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Just a few thoughts on the open cell foam treatment. My experience is with the stuff distributed by Sonex.
First, there is an out gassing. So when it first installed, you will smell the organic compounds. Some are sensitive to this, others are not and it will not last forever.
Second, some of it is paintable. It will slightly change the absorbtion coefficient (but not drastically).
Third, some of this stuff will release some nasty stuff if a flame is held to it - it smolders. Different brands may have different properties.
This last point raises another issue with room treatment. If you suspend stuff from the ceiling or on the wall. It will usually work better (absorb more sound and down to lower frequencies). But let me caution, that this also raises the red flag on fire issues. Suspended flammable material is not always and leaving an air gap behind it makes it even worse. It is something to keep in mind.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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OT: May she rest in Peace
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
Bruce,
This is very sad news.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Take care,
-Tom