PrestonTom
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Posts posted by PrestonTom
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Okay, I am starting to undersatnd the issue now. ....
First, using an equalizer is not really a very good way to tame room acoustics.
Second, Dr Who gave some very good advice.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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Don't go with the ohm rating on the input cup, use a DMM Digital Multi-Meter to take a true impedance reading. More detailed photos would have shown the shape better, but lets face it some sellers just suck!
Have to ask....
How does one measure the speaker system's impedance (including the crossover as part of the circuit) with a DMM?
Is that what you meant to imply?
-Tom
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If it is the low bass that you are concerned about (yet within the range of the cabinet's specified roll off) , then much of the final level (at your ears) will be determined by room acoustics.
The Heresys are fairly efficient and do not present a terribly low impedance to the amp. So I do not beleive a different amp will solve the problem (unless it has very little power). If the 2 channels are in phase, then try (in a systematic manner) varying their position relative to the rear walls and side walls (of course have them on the floor or on a small riser). The wavelengths are fairly large (10 ft at 100 Hz) and your room may have a geometry that produces some strong nodes & anti-nodes.
With decently recorded sources and an adequately sized amp, room acoustics are probably the culprit.
Good luck,
-Tom
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You are actually asking a pretty tough question.
If you are satisfied with the bass, then you are way ahead of the game. I would sugesst spending some time experimenting with the locating the speakers and chair (use a carefully recorded CD and listen, listen, listen at various locations and arrangements). The determine what deficits you think you have, this is sometimes difficult to put into words or categories. The frequency response should be even and the imaging should be good. Detemine the deficits and then treat the room. As others have mentioned, the treatments can range from decorative ones (drapes, curtains, wall hangings) to ones you find in a studio (sonex etc).
Good luck,
-Tom
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----------------On 8/25/2005 1:24:35 PM psg wrote:I gotta ask...Why a center speaker? What needs to be filled-in?My KHorns are 18' apart. When the lead vocals come on, they sound as if they originated from the center speaker over the TV. Except that speaker is not playing at all. There's no need to fill in anything.Is this needed when they are spread apart more?----------------
The deficit is one of spatial imaging. Fortunately it is not severe but it is most noticeable with widely separted speakers. The term "hole in the middle" is a bit unfortunate since you will still get a phantom center (when the L & R have identical signals). However the center (usually percussion and vocal) may not be as "solid" (it is hard to describe - also the sweet spot may be smaller or more fragile). The center channel will cure that.
I think (my opinion so don/t go wild) it may also help with some room acoustic issues. Since each channel (L & R) is producing some delay and add filtering ("comb filtering"), the center may smooth that problem out. Yes, the center will also produce comb filtering, but it is unlikely that the "delay & add" would be the same as the L & R components. So the sum would be smoother. I hesitate to bring this up since this issue is causing various misunderstandings in another thread. Additionally, you are now also listening to the summed signal from a speaker that is on axis (the L & R may not be) so you may get a better frequency respeonse for that reason.
Setting up a center is fairly simple. Give it a try.
good luck,
-Tom
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----------------On 8/24/2005 9:47:09 PM DeanG wrote:I can't think of a faster way to stress a tube -- ice it and then expose it to room temperature."If you are using Klipsch speakers do not worry about fancy amps (the cabinets are efficient and present an easy load for an amp."Just because a speaker is efficient doesn't mean it presents an "easy" load. All of the stock networks present fairly reactive loads to an amplifer, and my personal opinion is that they present anything but an "easy" load for an amp. No, you don't need a "fancy amp", but you should probably make sure you have one that delivers flat response while being presented with large swings in impedance. No big deal with solid state, but tube users need to choose wisely.----------------
Dean,
We probably do not have a major disagreement here. My context is that folks seem to spend a great deal of energy / money on the particulars that do not matter as much (proper speaker set up vs mystical cryo-treated speaker wire ...).
However, I am sure you will agree that an efficient speaker is easier on an amp (less likely to driven into distortion, clipping etc). Although the Klipsches do not have a constant impedance (not many systems do), they are easy on an amplifier (yes tube amps are more effected by a non-uniform impedance). However, it is when a speaker system presents a very low impedance (e.g. an electrostatic going down to 2 Ohm) that it becomes most difficult for an amp to drive (tube or SS). A Klipsch does not go that low and consequently does not require an amp with beefed up current capability etc. I am sure that we do not disagree on that. This is why I claim that a Klipsch is an easy speaker (compared to others) for a amp to drive (as long as it is of adequate size and has no hiss/hum).
Regarding the original topic about Cryo-voodoo.... This is nonsense! Folks would do better by spending their energy on speaker set up and room treatment (those efeccts are not voodoo - they will make a difference)
-Tom
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Gilbert,
A center channel box is really quite simple. Look up the diagram from the DFH postings (Dr Bill had one, as did others). There are two configurations. The bottom one listed uses the outputs from the amp and then inserts a few 1/2 watt resistors and a resistor pot (audio taper). I find this configuration to have some small advantges. In addition a small plastc project box and some RCA connctors are needed. These are basically Radio Shack parts and will not cost more than about $10. All you need is a solder gun and handrill. I would not bother with the dynaco version, at least not as a first step. Do not worry about fancy resistors.
The trick is getting the level set up correctly. You only need a little gain on the center channel. Most of the energy will be coming from the L & R speakers. Because of this, you can get away with a more modest amp/speaker for your center channel. Adjust the gain so that the center image (usually the singer & percussion) have a more "anchored" or "defined" location. While at the same time you still get the stereo image extending from the Left to the Right sides.
Good Luck,
-Tom
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re: Cryogentic-treatment
I visited the web site for one of the more popular cryogentic treatment services (speaker wire, interconnects, tubes etc). I tried to keep an open mind while I read their "explanations" and "results"
It was difficult to keep an open mind...
This is the biggest load of nonsense that I have ever heard. Once again I will proclaim: If you are using Klipsch speakers do not worry about fancy amps (the cabinets are efficient and present an easy load for an amp; however do worry about any hum or hiss); do not worry about speaker wire or interconnects (more nonsense); do not worry about the current flavor of capacitor or line conditioner....
Rather, spend your time on on speaker placement and room treatment. These have noticebale effects (and, of course, use well-recorded material).
The other stuff only makes greedy people/vendors/manufacturers (or fuzzy-thinking people) rich.
A cynical and grumpy,
-Tom
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Wait, slow down!
I think it far too premature to start concluding that the crossovers are bad or the amp is incorrect. Take some time and listen to the speakers. The Heresys should sound good, they are not a bad speaker cabinet.
It is doubtful that the amp (if it is working) is the problem since the K-Horns are quite efficient and do not present a low impeadnce to the amp (it is a very easy load for for an amp to drive).
Why not try spending some time in placing/locating the speaker and your listening chair. Unless there is soemthing terribly wrong with your crossover or amp (as was suggested above), placement and set up will have a far more dramatic effects on the sound.
When folks use terms like "crisp" and "detailed" it sometimes indicates that the highs are lacking (this is why stero salesmen turn up the treble knob - an old trick). Have a listen - are all the drivers working. A loose cable or blown tweeter is much more likely (probablistically) than crossover or inadequate amplifier. Troubleshoot the obvious things first,
Good luck,
-Tom
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Pardon my ignorance....
Why in the heck would a K-Horn need to be supplemented by a sub woofer. Is this some home theater effects-thing?
-Tom
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Welcome aboard
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Doug,
The way you phrased some your comments about your hearing loss makes it sound like you have not had a professional diagnosis.
I would strongly urge you to do so. PLease make an appointment with a doctor (ENT -ear nose and throat specialist). They will work with an audiologist to get you taken care of. Hearing loss is sometimes treatable and further hearing loss is frequently preventable. Please take the time to do this.
Good luck,
-Tom
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I think Gil hit on the head. Although the room size may not be best, it is still not bad. Corners are important, and you seem to have that.
K-Horns really do sound incredible (words spoken by a proud owner). In time, you may have a larger space, who knows.
Good luck,
-Tom
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Dr Who is correct (as he frequently is).
Certainly anything below 100Hz will be not be effected by a drape or curtain. When the wavelegths are that large (over 10 ft), the wave will travel right through it. For a curtain to be effective it would have to be at least 1/2 wavelength and that trick only works for higher freqs (smaller wavelengths).
Room geometry (in conjucnction with the geometry of the speaker placement) will dictate the frequnecy response at these low frequencies.
Good luck,
-Tom
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Congratualtions Joe,
They are huge, aren't they.
Enjoy,
-Tom
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I am curious on what is actually going on here.
Transmitting sound through a tube has big consequences. If it is flared, then you get the benefit of a loaded design (horn). On the other hand even if it non-expanding, a tube will introduce resonances (nodes & anti-nodes). This is not acoustically neutral. Additionally when the wavefront leaves the mouth of the tube, all sorts of things can happen. I can not beleive that even a "simple tube" will not impact the sound
-Tom
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TommyC,
Keep up the good work! As you have just discovered, speaker placement has a big effect. You are definitely on the right path.
It can be frustrating because it requires a great deal of experimentation and it will be further confounded by changes in room treatment (as simple as drapes being open or closed, area rugs, re-arranging furniture, wall hangings etc). However, this is exactly where real, audible differences are to be gained (put away the fancy speaker wire ....)
My suggestion is to get a small number of well-recorded CDs and listen to them on your system and other systems and get a very good ear for the sound of the different instruments. After this try re-arranging the speaker location and listening chair. There are many things that will change the sound, the trick is to how to best decide if the change is actually an improvement.
Good luck, these manipulations will make real differences and cost a lot less than esoteric things likes expensive cables, line conditioners, etc.
-Tom
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Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!
Heresys are fun speakers to listen to.
Re: question about risers. I have tried it both ways. Without the risers, the bass may a bit stronger. I think the difference is subtle; however, others make a bigger deal out of the difference.
With the risers and aimed at the listener, I believe the upper mids and highs were better (I assume the drivers are a bit directional).
It is worth some time to experiment by putting the speakers in different locations (esp relative to the back and side walls), bringing your chair to a different spot, etc. These are fun experiments. The problem is that changing speaker location and treating the room (drapes, carpets in or out, etc) definitely change the sound (these are clearly audible differences) but it is difficult to always judge whether the differences are actually better, or simply "different".
Good Luck,
Tom
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I will phrase it more simply than D-Man:
The output transformers on a tube amp serve as a low pass filter. This explains why the sibilance (probably from a poor recording) is attentuated with a tube amp. This is not menat to argumentative. Some people prefer this sort of sound and will use lots of words like "warmth" and "smoohtness" to describe it.
Good luck,
-Tom
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A false corner would be a good idea.
But there is no magic, this is simply physics.
Remember, at 50 Hz the wavelength is about 20 ft long, also at this low frequency there is very little break up of the wavefront via carpeting, drapes, etc. My guess is that you had some real dead zones before hand (or vice versa). Standing waves and the resultant constructive and destructive interference can be quite strong (and possibly exagerate what would otherwise be fairly little energy at the low frequencies)
good luck
-Tom
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Wiring them in parallel is quite acceptible.
For instance, a 13uF can be achieved by two that are approx half the value (i.e., 6 + 7). Such a combination may even provide minimal resistance in the circuit.
Alternatively, some will use one that is about 10% of the first (i.e., 12 + 1.2 hypothetically). This is sometimes termed a "bypass" configuration. This second approach may not provide minimal resistance, however. Bypassing is sometimes favored by certain folks, but the jury is out on whether it acually provides some of the supposed advantages.
Good luck,
-Tom
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Congratulations on the getting the Heresys.
These are nice, efficient speakers that have a beautifully detailed sound. They area great value. They are however a bit weak in the low bass, although the bass they do provide is clean and even, nothing boomy.
These are my opinions:
1) Rejoice, the speakers are efficient and they do not need a lot of power (wattage). You probably do not need to go above 50-75 watts
2) The impedance, combined with the efficiency, make them an easy load for an amplifier, so you do not need an expensive high current amp.
3) No amplifier is going to make the low bass come alive. Speaker cabinet design is a seies of compromises, the Heresy's bass are simply shy on the very low end. Although, proper placement and set up will help some. An amplifier will not make up for physical acoustics however,
4) Because they are efficient, any noise, hiss, or hum will be quite audible. Please get a quiet and clean amp.
5) The weak link in a system (the most prone to noise, coloration, distortion) is the speaker. You are doing well with the Heresy. So please do not apologize about using an inexpensive CD player. You are headed in the right direction and have a very good start on things.
Having said this, there are a number of used, reasonably priced, and available power amps or intetgrated amps out there. Consider the following, and audition them if possible: NAD, Rotel, Onkyo, Harman Kardon, Luxman, Adcom, or Hafler.
There are others also. What I have listed are ones that are readily available and certainly priced for your budget.
Good Luck and please rememeber that a clean and quiet, modest size amp will be fine. After this, the bigger impact come from speaker placement and room treatment
Enjoy,
-Tom
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On 8/16/2005 12:08:19 PM jpm wrote:
QUESTION: Regarding fuses in the speaker wires, after all the care given to getting this and that JUST PERFECT, and using $10,000 speaker wires, doesn't a 50 cent fuse blow the whole theory of state of the art stuff? Talk about Rat Shack weak links.
"Dude, I spent $75,000 on my system Dude, and it Rocks! I protect it all with a cheap fuse that's so thin I can barely make out the wire."
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An interesting question, let me pose the rhetorical question:
A blown speaker will have a degradation that is quite audible. Is the "degradation" produced by a very short & thin lead in the fuse also audible?
-Tom
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Congratulations!!
Those cabinets look fantastic.
It is interesting to speculate on why the sound was so different in the two different locales. I have seen this occur in other setups also.
Folks typically assume it is the electronics and source. It could very well be true. But I believe the speaker setup and room treatment plays a tremendous role also. The speaker set up isues are probably fairly straight forward; however, the room issues can be quite tricky. Rooms are seldom just an empty rectangle (with predicatable modes) with uniform & easily understood absorption coefficients. It's tricky business and requires a bit of experimentation.
I am glad it worked out for you.
Enjoy & good luck,
-Tom
k-horns, my how they sing when you get the distance
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Joe,
That's great that the re-arrangement is working out well. By the way, a false corner, or half of a false corner, is a fun project that you might consider.
One thing I like to do every few months is to move my listening chair forward or back about 1-3 ft. It will certainly change the sound - both the coloration and the imaging. It helps remind you about where the best sweet spot is.
Enjoy and good luck,
-Tom