PrestonTom
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Please Excuse: This is also posted on the 2-Channel forum
Hello All,
I have a pair of K-Horns that are now positioned along the long wall (18ft apart). I am now confronting the dreaded "hole in the middle". In a perfect world I would get a single La Scala or Belle as a center channel. However life is not yet perfect.
Realistically and practically a Heresy would be a good 90% solution. However, I am having problems locating one. The prices fluctuate on eBay and no single ones have been available (with shipping to New England, the prices can then become prohibitive).
The short request is: Does anyone have a Heresy that they are looking to sell?
Thanks for your collective help,
-Tom
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Hello All,
I have a pair of K-Horns that are now positioned along the long wall (18ft apart). I am now confronting the dreaded "hole in the middle". In a perfect world I would get a single La Scala or Belle as a center channel. However life is not yet perfect.
Realistically and practically a Heresy would be a good 90% solution. However, I am having problems locating one. The prices fluctuate on eBay and no single ones have been available (with shipping to New England, the prices can then become prohibitive).
The short request is: Does anyone have a Heresy that they are looking to sell?
Thanks for your collective help,
-Tom
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Another perspective on this one.
At 250 Hz the wavelength is over 4 ft. With wavelengths this large, there is generally very little absorption by curtains & carpets. It is the room geometry that is dictating much of the response that is received - there will definitely be resonances and dips as the waves and reflections add together (constructively and destructively). With a continuous pure tone, 10 to 20 dB variations are not unusual especially in a small room. This is easily verified by finding the location of a relative dip and then moving the mic about a 1/2 wavelength away (about 2 ft in a direction realtive to the nearest wall). Using a third octave band of noise will diminish the fluctuations (as to be expected: the broader the signal the less the variation).
I would not worry about the contribution of energy coming from the mid-range driver since it contributes considerably less to the overall level at this low frequency ( I can't remember the roll off, but if it is more than several dB down from the woofer it would offer very little cancellation even if it were 180 deg out of phase).
Attempting to equalize is highly problematic. As an exapmle I was listening to a 1000 Hz tone the other day (remember the wavelength is 13 inches) and none of us would consider this to be a "low frequency" tone. This was done over a sigle K-Horn in a typically furnished & carpeted living room (12 x 18 and with many openings into halls and adjacent rooms). Moving my head 1/2 foot or so in various directions had a very appreciable impact. Using the relation that the perceived level of sound "doubles" when the physical level increases by about 10 dB, then I was getting changes in level of close to 10 dB. This is a folksy measure, and continuous pure tones are not music; however it does show the burdensome influence of room acoustics.
How could one ever hope to equalize. Would you even try to do that. And remember this as at 1000 Hz (close to 2 octaves above "middle C"). The problem will be worse at lower frequencies. Room acoustics are frustrating, and not easily tamed.
All in all, relax, put the microphone away and enjoy the music.
-Tom
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Hello James
This is bringing back some memories!
The bottom line is that an indoor antenna really does not work very well (even the fancy active ones).
I live in a somewhat rural area of SE Connecticut and I am able to pick up the Boston / Providence / New Haven stations (esp at night) using a Yagi roof antenna mounted on a rotator. You might see if this would work in a attic space if you do not have access to your roof.
The basic problems are sensitivity (is there enough signal to pick up) and directivity (are you picking up channels from other loacales) and the ability to reject nearby frequencies. If you are in an urban environment there will be multi-path problems also. In my case I used a radio shack FM antenna. They have two versions one is about $15 and the other about $20 (spend the extra $5). They will not pick up much television broadcast (some around ch 5,6,7) and they are quite directional. The directionality is the advantage since it gets rid of channels on the same frequency, but coming from other locales. However, it also means that you need a rotator (also available from Radio Shack) so you can direct it toward the different transmitters. If there is a single station you are interested in, it can be left in a fixed direction. If the cable length is long (and you can use coax rather than 600 ohm) you may need an amplifier (luckily this is usually not the case). Also any metal in your attic or roof will compromise the reception. Near an attic vet or window is helpful. The funny thing about working with an antenna is that simply snaking the wire around a bit differently can make all the difference in the world.
Good luck
-Tom
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Please, let's not worry about things that do not need to be worried about. If you only hear the hum when your head is inside the horn, but not in your easy chair - then it is simple. There is no problem, 'cause the "problem" can not be heard.
A thought: the Klipsch speakers are very efficient. This efficiency has a number of consequences. Many of these are the reasons that we love them. However, it also means that any problems "upstream" will be heard "downstream". It really could be as simple as an interconnect lying on top of a power cord or some such glitch. Please do not spend a lot of money on wire or power conditioners etc. First, it is not clear that there is a problem (i.e., can you hear it at your easy chair) or second, can it fixed simply (re-route your power cords).
I get perturbed when I think good folks are being "taken" by those who make a profit by selling (in some cases) snake oil. This is why I am preaching...
Enjoy the sound,
-Tom
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Gee, I am also a very big fan of Van Morrison.
I always thought the horn arrangements were fantastic on that album. A few years ago I was intermittently involved with a users group that traded bootleg CDs of Van in concert. There were some very impressive recordings. The sound is frequently "captured" from the sound board (unlike Graeatful Dead recordings by some guy in the hall with a snigle mic). Along with that there was no little or no mxing, compressing, expanding, various studio tricks, etc. So what you got was a quality recording with that feeling of live and dynamic music. Needless to say, the K-Horns at home are a perfect match for listening to those live recordings. I think I will go and play some now ...
-Tom
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FANTASTIC!
Congratulations. This is an inspiration.
The photos and chronology make a very nice story - thanks for sharing. My two comments: 1) I also have been a big fan of the WATCO products for finishing wood. That is what I used on my raw birch K-Horns. 2) I was in Camden NJ a few years ago and next to the old RCA building. Near the top of the roof they had a window with the old advertising logo "His Master's Voice" with a depiction of the dog with his ear cocked next to the old phonograph. The photo of your dog next next to the La Scala captures that feeling in much the same way.
regarding the sound improving: I remember after I purchased then refinished my K-Horns (which had been out in a barn for a few years - but not in too bad of a condition) I also noticed an improvement in the sound. The placebo effect for me was very strong. In spite of me knowing better, I swear the sound was now more "revealing and detailed" the bass was "tighter and more solid". Wait these are the phrases that folks use when they buy the esoteric (and very expensive) speaker wire....
Enjoy your fruits of your labor.
-Tom
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Congrats on getting the K-Horns. I have a pair of about the same vintage, I know you will enjoy them. Many folks will be giving you advice, may I take my turn now.
As you probably already know, the cabinets really must be positioned in the corners of the room. If your situation makes that difficult, there are a number of threads regarding the construction of a "false corner". I am pointing this out, perhaps redundantly, since positioning them in the corners (hopefully with the the listening chair forming the vertex of a 90deg angle) will have the most profound impact. All other tweaks will be secondary to this one.
Enjoy your new K-Horns and let us know how you like them.
-Tom
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Congratulations Dave!
The K-Horns are wonderful speakers and I am sure you will love them. Lots of folks will be giving you advice, may I take my turn now?
1. Regarding the amplifier: These speakers are very revealing, so if any of the components are noisy, this will be revealed by the K-Horns. That is both the good news and the bad news. The units are quite efficient so do not worry about getting a large amp. They do not require a great deal of power. In other words, it is difficult to run them up to a level where the system will be distorting (IMHO, that is a major difference between amps ...)
2. Placing the cabinets in the corners of the room is of the greatest importance. If your situation makes that difficult, then by all means take advantage of the various threads regarding "false corners" - there are a number of options. Again, putting them in corners will have the biggest impact (briefly: the corner of the room serves as the final flare of the cabinet and in turn, determines the response of the lower bass). The geometry of how the speakers & chair are positioned is, of coure, also critical for getting the proper sweet spot for listening. Personally I find the imaging on these to be a bit sensitive - but there is ample time to fool around and get it right.
Anyhow, those are my 2 cents worth. Once you have got them in the corners, let us know how you like them.
Enjoy!
-Tom
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Congrats on getting the Belles.
I had run into a similar problem when refinishing/cleaning up used furniture -this is a guess on why the treatments are not absorbing evenly. There are furniture waxes/oils on the market that contain silicone. If this is the case, it presents a real headache since it is quite difficult to remove (everything is repelled by the silicone). The silicone was used since it gives a nice glistening finish to the wood.
As a reminder to others: avoid using furniture products that contain silicone. I hope this was not the case for you. Good luck
-Tom
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There have been a number of threads on this topic. The general consensus is that you will get an improvement. Common to many of the threads is a recommendation to use Pipe foam insulation (closed cell). It is fairly cheap and easy work with. The stuff that is 1.5" can be used on the back verticals and 3/4" (split in two, lengthwise) along the horizontals. This should fill in any gaps, although in your particular install there may be some other architectual issues. Have a look at some of the photos.
Good luck,
-Tom
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I had always liked Harman Kardon products before. I had been a big fan of their high current amps (I matched one with some Magnepans and Vandersteens that I had with great results) and my girlfriend had some rather demanding speakers and a new HK receiver took care of all the problems.
However, tonight I went to pick up a brand new HK CD player(Model FL 8385)since my 20 year old Nakamichi OMS5A was finally shot. When I got home the HK unit was a dud. The thing made a terrible grinding sound when playing CDs. This was not a refurbished unit - it was new, fresh out of the box (and there was no visible damage to the unit or the box).
What a disappointment! Maybe this was a fluke, but I do wonder what has happened to quality control.
Tom the Frustrated
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This one is tricky. I also saw the ad and contacted the seller. That is when I found out about the woofers that had been repaced with JBLs etc. The cabinets are a disaster and I am afraid that if the woofers were blown then the other drivers may have suffered similar abuse. The price is cheap however but it would require new woofers and rebuilding cabinets. I know I became leary at that point.
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Good Morning Bob,
You have mail ...
Thanks,
-Tom
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I used to have a Heresy cabinet from the early 1980s. As I recall the driver was a K-53. However, I have seen some cabinets on ebay that suggest the mid-range driver is actually a K-55-V.
My real question regards the parts I would need to build a LaScala-clone (or perhaps a Belle-clone) for a center channel if I found an old Heresy that was beat up (i.e., affordable). IF it had a K-55 driver (and K-77 tweeter) then I would just need a horn (a new K-401 is affordable) and a K-33 (also affordable). The woodworking would be blast and the constructing an interesting crossover would be fun also.
Back to my question: what is the driver on the mid-range of Heresy (and did these change over the years)?
Thanks,
-Tom
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I certainly agree with the above replies.
As a word of caution however, you can sometimes run into problems if you start mixing balanced and unbalanced pieces of equipment - terrible hum etc can creep in.
Good luck,
-Tom
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Congrats on getting the Belles!
I have tried spiking various speakers in the past. It is doubtful that you will get much of a difference. The weight and footprint of the Belles will ensure a stable position (i.e., They won't rock around and produce some sort of Doppler shift).
If the cabinet was tall and narrow or on a speaker stand, or on thick carpeting then spiking might help. When spiking into a wooden floor, sometimes energy will be coupled into floor itself and that vibration can produce an "in the seat of your pants" sensation. Which may or may not enhance the listener's experience.
Enjoy the Belles, you're in for some fun!
-Tom
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I have attached another photo of the project.
I wanted to thank all of you for all the nice comments, this was especially gratifying since I know some of you have had 1st hand experience at dealing with this stuff - thanks
BTW, I know there have been various threads that advocate the importance of getting a good seal when shoving the K-Horn into the corner. Perhaps achieving this with the use of the pipe-insulation (closed cell) between the cabinet and the wall.
Let me second those opinions! It does make a noticeable difference and it is a fairly simple and inexpensive thing to do.
Alas, my K-Horns are now along the long wall (and forming the 90 deg listening-triangle). Life is almost perfect but I need to do something about that that "hole in the middle".
I am on the lookout for a center channel, preferably a La Scala or a Belle. You know, this quest (hobby) never ends.
-Tom
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I wanted to share this with anyone who might be interested.
http://www.robertsav.com/usedequip.html
This shop has a small consignment business and they have always treated me very fairly. In fact this is where I got my K-Horns about 10 years ago.
Oh yeah, I have no vested interest with the seller .....
-Tom
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OUCH!
I had a similar when sending a Hersey to my brother in Canada via UPS. The box was well-wrapped and protected with a piece of luan (thin plywood) on the inside/front and lots of bubble wrap and spacers. However it did arrive with a serious gouge, not unike what I saw in your pictures. It was frustrating since I had just cleaned up and repainted the cabinet (the black plywood)and it was part of a Christmas present. Fortunately, my brother so blown away by the sound that he is not terribly bothered by the gouge. I guess when packages are so heavy, even the best of bubble-wrapping is not sufficient and probably does require the pink/rigid foam.
Good luck,
-Tom
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Things are complete. The real wall creates the other half of the corner. And you can move the cabinet along the wall and adjust the distance between the cabinets. This will allow you to adjust the width of the sound field. And in my case allowed me to place the K-Horns along the long wall (which opens up to a front entry way).
There are many good threads regarding false corners. But if you have been shy about building something that is very large or may require drilling/cutting into you walls or the K-Horn cabinet, then this might be an alternative. It is fairly simple to construct (in spite of my directions) and can be adapted to various environments. However it is not appropriate for a bringing a speaker away from the wall and into the room or for toeing in a cabinet (you need at least one real wall). However others have posted plans for those conditions.
I no longer have ready access to electroacoustic measurement equipment so I can not provide before-and-after measures. However the sound is fantastic. I hope this is useful for someone who has corner horns but has not been able to put them into corners.
Good luck,
-Tom
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Step SEVEN:
Attach the pipe foam alng the horizontal surface of the cabinet (this is physically what the false corner will be hugging up to.
You may have noticed my K-Horns are on pads. This makes them easier to slide out of the corner. However, it does create an air gap in what should be the final flare of the horn. That is why I stuffed some small diameter foam insulation under the side edges (it can not be seen in this photo).
Now the false corner can be slid into position. At this point it is like dancing with a big woman. Because of the weight, slide the structure all the way back into the real wall (i.e., compress to pipe foam on the back edge). At the same time shove the bottom in tight. Now pull the top back to expose the toggles (yes, slide the bolts through the structure then attach the toggle on the inside of the corner and slide the toggle through the plywood plate (attached to the previously installed brackets). Now tighten up the toggles. This sounds deceptively easy - it is not since the false corner must be plumb and parallel with the cabinet and floor and also at a right angle to the wall. However you will get the hang of it. At this point a level will help.
You are now the proud owner of a one half of a false corner!!
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Step SIX:
Attach some pipe foam insulation where the false corner meets the real wall. This helps with forming the corner, it also fills in any gaps since there is base molding on the existing wall. It also helps to minimize any dents or gouges in the existing wall.
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Step FIVE:
The edge trim (the 1x3) on the front vertical and tops was cut, routed and nailed on. Along with various other bits of trim and moulding. Make sure the tops are well secured since these may be the "handles" when you are moving the structure
This is your chance to match/blend/compliment the various kinds of interior details of your living room.
The WAF is a make or break at this point.
Spend some time on spackling and sanding (in the garage and not the living room - there will be dust everywhere)
I moved the beast upstairs (it weighs 96 lbs and I am not as young as used to be ...)
Ready for prime (two coats is best - I use the BIN products) and then two top coats.
We are very close to completion!
Upgrading from La Scalas to Khorn..................................
in 2-Channel Home Audio
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Triode,
Let me encourage you to build the false corner(s) "sooner rather than later" There are some excellent threads showing some variations that might be easier/quicker for you to build or to fit into an existing environment.
Positioning them in a corner or false corner really does make a difference. I will even pat myself on the back and suggest that you look at my thread on building a false corner - this was a modified design that might be more workable for you and really did not take long to build.
Good luck,
-Tom