Fortissimo

Bearing in mind servos (like velodyne and paradigm) correct problems after they occur. I don't view them as the "best" sub by any means. Although they are great subs. I have a dayton titanic III that is acoustic suspension. 15" with a 1000w amp. It digs deep into the teen's and is very tight and clean. NHT has a nice 12" kit that is acoustic suspension as well. Problem is: look at most of the mass market subs. They are ported, and boomy in the 60-80hz range for HT and don't plumb the depths of the 1st octave with any authority or control. Porting is easier and cheaper to get high output in that range. A good alternative to ported, is the VMPS new larger sub. It now has a 1000W amp and is about $1000. It has a 15" active, 15" passive radiator and a 12" active as well. The output is brutal (like 120db) into the teens, and acts very tight like acoustic suspension.

I am not too harsh on speakers that have smaller size. I do look for them to produce bass decent for the size. But I do consider any speaker that isn't at least into the 30's bass light. That is why I really dig the bigger klipsch like forte, cornwall, chorus etc...

Q: Name a loudspeaker with no coloration. A: There are none. Zingali omniray use a round, wooden horn. Still, I can hear the wooden qualities of it. Edgarhorns use a salad-bowl apature with tractrix. Still, there is a color if you listen for it. Then again, refer to the question above.

Actually, depending on the setup, the coloration is minimal. It's usually exaggerated by those that try to key on it. For example: I found more coloration with RF-7 than Forte II's all else being equal. I was listening to some classical violin, and the violin tended to exaggerate the RF-7's horn dimensions, as if it was tracing the shape out sonically. That effect was almost gone on the Forte II. I was introduced to many different B&W speakers which were supposed to be hyper accurate and low in color. The sound to me, was arid and lacked life, therefore highly colored. A way to amelorate said colorations is electronics matching. Cheap solid state tended to exacerbate the effect where as quality ss or tube gear mitigated it. *all* speakers on the market have one thing in common. They *all* have coloration, and a degree of bending the sound to meet thier own reality. I have read how infinity kappa 9's exhibited a "foil" coloration. Ok, big deal. To my ears, they were incredibly musical, more so than the wilson watt-puppy version 4 or 5 that was out at the time. Coloration is all reletive, and it exists everywhere-it's not exclusive to klipsch. Q: What loudspeaker has no coloration? A: There are none. But I did notice you are on a posting campaign with the pretense that klipsch are colored. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable on a general (non klipsch) audio board...there are loads of them out there.

I like that "Icorn" [] I think they look cool in white like that! But then again, maybe they look too much like a laundry hamper... [] Tag mclaren has automotive paint finished speakers:

Perhaps in the 2050 Star Trek sharper image audio catalog... For now, they do have sound reactive colored lighting....

I have been through Germany, but stationed mostly in the pacific. They heyday of AAFES/NEX ended roughly 1991. The audio/photo clubs that used to carry nice stuff did a massive downsize. Now, it's only small bose and boomboxes. The hotspots for hifi: Germany, RAF Lakenheath, Guam, Clark (Philippines) Subic bay (PI again) Kadena (Okinawa) and Yokota. You could find Klipschhorns, belles and on down to KG4's. The last set of la scalas I saw at Subic bay in 1989 were on clearance (new) for $750 a pair, along with a Nakamichi dragon cassette deck ($750) and a PA-7 power amp ($750) AAFES not only carried Klipsch, they carried JBL (I saw 250ti's for $2800/pr) Infinity (They had everything up to IRS 1b's, and later kappa 9's) Acoustic research (Those big tower 9's) and Polk audios massive srs system. All for 50%-60% of what the USA paid for them. Those were the days...sigh.

It's all fun and games until the RF-93 finished in Macassar ebony arrives

The agony of heritage: The heritage (my fave) has the separate mid horn and tweeter that can produce a more powerful presentation. But it can also be more revealing as well. The bane of my association with klipsch since 1981 has been this: People try klipsch with poor electronics, or recordings that are nasty midrange hot (like early 80's cd's) and listen for 5 minutes before declaring defeat. Klipsch are rarely treated with the same respect in setup and listening as high end speakers. How many thousands listened to heritage in this manner and made a judgement? The same people who take *hours* to set up high end brands and ensure everything is perfect. And then if it doesn't sound right: blame the room or electronics. With klipsch, it's : Blame the speaker. Trust me... take any heritage speaker with a proper tube amp and front end and listen to qualiity vinyl and digital media before making the call. The difference in all the factors makes such a huge difference with klipsch. It will make the difference between harsh/honk and real/clarity. "My klipsch don't honk, but my car does."

The other problem I attribute to subophobia is the plethora of mass-market HT style subs. They add that disco-style midbass thump and really overload the energy from 40-60hz. Ick. Also, FWIW, many of the klipsch I have heard do sound excellent without a sub. But for that nth degree of reproduction realism, I have my sub dialed in about 30-35hz to blend with my forte II perfectly. Were they a set of heresy's, I'd likely set the sub to 50 hz +/-.

Cornwalls were the first Klipsch I ever listened to in 1981. They blew me away back then. I have been hooked since.

I used to do the two way thing, but I grew out of it. That means that were I to acquire a set of heresies, I'd use a sub. I'd balance and blend the sub. And oh yeah, the sub does have an "off" switch if I choose not to use it. By sub, that doesn't mean the klipsch subs. Those are great HT subs, but even the KSW 15" doesn't have the clean 20hz output that a paradigm servo, hsu,svs or VMPS has. But few speakers on the market can convey the weight and bottom end of much of my classical music. That stuff has energy into the low 20's that if not produced, cuts realism away. I'd use a sub with anything that wasn't clean into the mid 20's. And again, there is an off switch.

You are right. The segue came from folks that wanted to discuss non Klipsch products, and downplay klipsch in general. If, for example someone enjoys thier $700 RB5's, and someone else says "Yeah, but the 25th anniversary Dynaudio bookshelves are better IMO." Ok, fine but a) The dynaudio are $4,000 a pair vs $700 a pair The dynaudio IMO, do not have the impact or realism of the RB5 IMO. So, "opinionalysis" and subjectivity aside, Klipsch of all kinds give me realism that is frequently lost in other designs. And I measure realism using Klipsch as a yardstick. Not just because of the sound, but also the fact they are comparatively inexpensive. They have ruined me for other things.

Nah I disagree. If only people who liked Klipsch were here, then they can share enthusiasm. It would only be boring for the anti-klipsch types. There has to be untold numbers of audio forums out there. *NONE* of them are all that kind to Klipsch. Some are downright snobby. I say keep the klipsch forum Klipsch, and those who don't like klipsch, stick to the other umpteen Klipsch-hating forums. People can always go there if they want to feel bad about the speakers they have loved for decades. Not that I don't enjoy some uppity internet audioflake denegrating stuff I like in a forum for the brand. Otherwise the name of this place might as well be "allspeakersandklipsch" Oooh! Please, More anti-Klipsch rhetoric! it builds character! Not. It's like walking into someone's house that has had Klipsch for 20 years and saying: "Hey! Those really really suck! When are you going to get REAL speakers?" "The door is this way--->"

A womans guide summary: "Speakers must be very small or invisible. If they are visible in the room, they must blend perfectly with my decor, and be used to hold whatever knick-knacks and tapestry I drape on them." * * Indicates faux-sexist tounge-in-cheek comment on just what I have seen in the past 20 years.

I am openly weeping into my beer at this very moment.

Zingali monitors are *awesome* horns with the omniray horn. The monitor 12's are in the $5K-$6K range Westlake's prices scared me much like avante-garde. The flagship tower is about $80 kilobucks. For a simpler setup: www.pispeakers.com But I digress. This forum should be by and for Klipsch enthusiasts. NOT a platform to hawk the competition. And not a pulpit to rail against Klipsch or convince someone to buy something else. IMO, you are here to support Klipsch and Klipsch owners, or you should not be here. That would be a pointless, and irritating existance to those of us Klipsch o-philes. If I wanted to read about the negative criticisms of Klipsch, or "Oh man you gotta buy the "XXX" brand", then that is what all non-Klipsch forums are for.

It's been a long time, but what I remember of the JBL 250ti: -Critics didn't like the original 250 much, but the ti (titanium tweet) seems to have rectified earlier concerns. -The 250Ti can take and need s *stout* ss amp. I recommend no less than 200 wpc. -The soundfield was very large. The aquaplas midrange was very transparent -The bass was very solid. The L-100T 's bass on steroids. -The resoloution was very good, and fussy of poor electronics, especially the tweeter. The right ss would make it sing, poor matching would make it tinny sounding. I'd probably buy a pair myself., but they are a totally different sonic direction than horns.

Since I started the thread, I didn't exactly "diss" other brands. I did state that there are a lot of expensive boutique brands (often vanity products) that do not sound realistic, can't handle rock, and don't sound as realistic as klipsch. Often, rock music is like kryptonite to snobs. Much like Klipsch tends to be. "Ahhh!!! You like KLIPSCH???? YOU listen to ROCK music????" (insert additional snide comments about shoutiness, rap music, and any other condescending audiophilism here) I will be shopping this summer in the Seattle/Tacoma and Spokane area for a two channel system. I am deeply considering la scala and klipschorns. That is for a specific type of sound. I am also considering a system along the lines of vandersteen 3a signitures, Gallo acoustics or maybe VMPS RM30's. Time will tell, because I will decide in September. This is a Klipsch forum however, and it makes no sense for me to be here if the focus wasn't klipsch. "I am unapoligetically a Klipsch audio enthisiast"

I haven't listed it on purpose. That kind of thing turns into a point of contention on a hifi forum. There are one of 4 possible reactions: 1) Excellent gear, I like that stuff (translation: it's expensive, or falls within the taste of the other poster(s)) 2) Never heard of it (can imply inferiority, but it's an unknown and impossible to guage) 3) Good gear for the money (There is better to be had) 4) You really should upgrade and try XXX. (Implies it's crap) I have modified/DIY gear. It's nothing other folks have heard. The speakers are Forte II, that's they key factor of commonality.

I was just listening to Stanton Moore (Corrosion of conformity, Galactic) cd called "Flyin the koop." First I got up to check... did I leave the sub on? nope. Damn! Ok. A couple cuts into it there is some walking bass and the image is so crisp I had to check..."Is that coming from my center channel?" oh wait, it can't. I am on stereo mode from a cd. It's off. Double damn. I can only imagine what a full horn setup in a big room would do.

Those are probably the infinity IRS-III. They were $65,000 per system back in the day of Arnie Nudell. Now he makes Genesis speakers for $135,000 that look almost the same. *one pair* of Krell monoblocks can cost as much as a new Camry, loaded. Unless they are the master reference, in which they cost the same as a new Lexus LS-430 loaded. I attended a hi-fi show in which one of the rooms had $250,000 system from meridian digital. It sounded kind of dry, but the bass was flabby and bloated. I know, it had to be the room. But the room with a $5k system (Vandersteen 2ce signitures) sounded terrific. But my friends cornwalls and dynaco amp (The whole system might be $2.5K) just blew me away. All the music was so dynamic and powerful compared to all the high-end voodoo and $20K speaker wires. We listened to the cornwalls all night, and talked about how much worse some of the high end rooms at the show sounded.

Yep, I have forte II's and a sub when needed, which isn't often. And my goal is to move up in size to la scala, belle or hopefully khorns. BTW: I always thought KG4's were killer small speakers!

No matter what the elitist audiosnob says: there are speakers out there that cost an arm and a leg, and they can't do rock at all. Oh, they will give you flowery nuance and a polite presentation of detail but: They sound watered down compared to klipsch. And that, IMO is a fatal flaw of sound reproduction. You cannot communicate reality, and make it non-impact. It doesn't work for me, and it doesn't rock. Or jazz or blues for that matter. But silly me, even chamber music sounds good on klipsch.