SET12

Is it just the 3 of us! Man this past weekend I put in a lot of hrs on my system. A couple of things are pretty apparent to me. One is the Titanium diaphragm is one low distortion diaphragm. I say this cause I noticed how much higher level volume can be had from it. It just has so much control that when my 10 watt SET amp clips its much less noticeable especially the onset clipping, I really have to push the amps really hard far harder than with the Crites which is all ready substantially better than stock. The Crites also has considerably more control than stock and this is very noticeable with piano. The Titanium goes well beyond the Crites in this regard but for those contemplating the Titanium the Crites is a sheer bargin especially after it has 40-50hrs on it IMO. The Titanium is nearly at best out of the box, but I have noticed bloom and development of body and better dynamics and even more detail retrieval with the 15hrs I now have on them. In short they are simply wonderful in my system I suspect they will continue to develop some. But the coolest thing about the Titanium's is how they handle stress in the busier arrangements of music, and for SET owners such as myself the Titanium has such extremely good recovery from a SET amps clipping. I use to think it was just my SET's clipping I would occasionally hear, but in reality it was the diaphragm it self not able to follow the amplifier. I'm very happy to be a part of the Titanium crowd, and one of the few Titanium Forte owners. I thank all that encouraged this mod! SET12

You got that right, I have been through it, I worked for one company 27yrs before production was shifted out of the country. Its only the beginning, temp service employees, restructuring and shifted production over seas and so on. One Klipsch forum member suggested stop doing DIYing in support of companies here, what so I can support workers over seas being paid 50 cents an hr that are jumping out of windows from stress. My current company I work for is an electronics giant, one of the top ten in the country. One day after I was told a product line I worked with was going over seas I decided to take a count of just how many workers they have overseas working for them as they have maybe 3000 total in the U.S., I was surprised, it was in excess of 8,000 and the number is growing. I can no longer afford to buy already made products as I have loss 1/3 of my income and I have many coworkers that have as well. One Klipsch associate said I think "well its not as though the roof is caving in!" Well I work with Technicians everyday which use to be people with 2 yr associate degrees, now the company has 4yr EE degree people working as Tech's. Why, because they can get them, engineering is cheaper out of the country and many engineers are available and they can be had for 50% of what they were once paid. There are countries that encourage their corporations to produce within their own country with incentives tax breaks and so forth. Until this happens in our country I feel the U.S. is cutting it's own throat. It's hard to afford a new car even and no wonder why Detroit has cut so many jobs and has been bailed out. SET12

I had the same message between Christmas and New Years but I wouldn't of expected it now! BTW the Ti has been working great in Fortes, I'm well pleased. I am curoius if anyone is using the Crites Autotransformers with them, I just didn't like the sound as much as I do with my German C-Core Autotransformers. With the Crites Autotransformers I would prefer by far the Crites mid with them. Maybe the stock autotransformers are a better match subjectively I don't know. SET12

Yes that baffled me to, I just measured the coil dia. on the Crites and its 1.5in so was the Titanium as it had to be to fit. All I thought was the coil diameter could be smaller than Ti driver spec of 1.75in and still have the same 1.75in surface dia of the driver possibly and thats why it would work, I should of took some other measurements. But anyway I'm very pleased with what I heard, especially in combination of the components I'm using namely the Duelund coupling caps and the German C-Core Autotransformers purchased on e-bay. The sound is nothing short of amazing. SET12

I can't argue with personal satisfaction which is all that matters, I certainly agree the Titanium's are the top of the [8] food chain. SET12

Yes, Thats correct I would prefer the Crites mid to the stock and the Titanium to the Crites. How the Titanium sounds inserted into a stock network I couldn't tell you! but mind you the Titanium I believe will be a love hate item to some IMO more so than the Titanium tweeters and there are a few who don't care for them either, its all in how a system is voiced IMO as to whether they are loved or hated. But from xtreme4099 and John Chi-town they like what they hear. The nice thing about Crites networks is you get new board that you can change parts out to others much easier in the future should you want to do so. Also Bob's inductors are more than likely better than the stock units. I guess it all depends on your networks and how easy they are to modify,some like my original Forte are a real bear to work with (everything mounted on small round terminal cups) while other Klipsch networks aren't so bad to mod. In the end its far cheaper to do it yourself. Largely it depends on how much performance you want or need. In my case its very high. SET12

Thanks John! Here is all three from left to right, the stock, the Crites and the Titanium. What a listening session this morning! First off the Titanium midrange was connected via a Duelund Copper VSF coupling capacitor then to my German Made C-Core Autotransformers. It was a long day yesterday as I got a late start, I had to swap out a bad K-23 woofer for another K-23 then pull apart everything which is a job. I have 28 5- way binding posts with my external networks. My Forte's internal wiring is composed of heavy gauge AudioQuest Midnight for the woofer and Idiago for the mid and tweeters. Midrange and tweeter is wrapped with rope caulk then I use egg crate foam to wrap the both of them. Clearly when rapping on the mid horn you can hear the effect of the wrap as it seems to lower the pitch of the rapping. And BTW after 1 yr there is no sign of any oiliness to the rope caulk brand name Mortite purchased at Home Depot at all. I was able to get about a 1/2 hr in of moderate volume level Jazz last night, I initially felt the lower registers of the piano were a little soft in contrast to the Crites but I figured it was due to the driver being a bit stiff being new. And I was correct. So this Morning for several hrs I put the Titanium's through some of my reference recordings. As I listened it seemed they were opening up and getting more dynamic, stage size was huge right out of the box. Unlike the Crites which was narrow initially then bloomed beyond the stocks presentation. But I noticed what took hrs and hrs for the Crites was taking minutes and minutes for the Titanium to display its stuff. I would say if I had compared the Crites to the Titanium right out of their boxes, it would be no contest the Titanium would win hands down! But with 40-50hrs or more The Crites is one Bargain! a person can't go wrong with them. A Couple of things I noticed with the Titanium's! One is they are a very low distortion drivers, they handle clipping far more graceful of my SET amps then the stock or the Crites but the Crites is far superior to the stock Phenolic. The Titanium is simply unbelievable how it holds together at high volume levels. I use to think it was my amps clipping I was hearing but now I think it was the driver it self breaking up. Certainly the Crites is better than the stock Phenolic but nothing like the Titanium. Second, the vertical imaging seems taller to me as does the lateral imaging slightly wider. Images after a couple of hrs were getting more 3 dimensional, nice roundness. The human voice is very nice! integrating better to the Crites Titanium tweeters more seamlessly.Very impressive. Cymbals, wire brushes drum sticks took on more weight to their hits with some very nice definition. I was really impressed with this. Last I spent some time with the Crites Autotransformers. Here I had some problems that I just had a hard time listening to unfortunately. Perhaps changing my amps coupling outer foil connection would work I don't know, it has helped in the past and the MIT Multi Caps don't have the greatest reputation today but they are used in one of the finest preamps I have ever heard. Here is one reason why everyone has to decide for themselves what works and what doesn't. I have spent a lot of time voicing and I couldn't agree more with this statement about Arthur Loesch. "Dr. Arthur Loesch used two of the lower tier finishers as coupling caps in his personal phono stage, where their major flaws largely cancelled each other out. This is why we suggest using the results, published below, as a guide, and not take them as an absolute. Voicing your components is a lot like cooking -- some spices work well in some recipes, but used in the wrong combination, they can easily make a dish unpalatable. If you do your own tests, please keep both your mind and ears open and try to forget everything you may have read about a given cap in this or any other survey." So what I heard using the Crites Autotransformers, I swapped out the C-Cores and left the volume as is and hit play, and wow what a difference. It was unbearable, thin hard bright, it could be the stock autotransformers maybe better I don't know I'd have to try them. Anyway I had to move the volume control nearly 90 degrees back or so and even then I was starting to get a headache, I don't get headaches. I listened to several cuts and and went back. The C-Cores where far more natural subjectively and pleasing to my ears. But as far as the Titanium's in my system they are a clear winner [Y] SET12

Set 12; I agree 100% with your assesment of the packaging. Luckily we both had "well handled" packages between Hope and our respective dwellings. Get those babies in, and let us know your thoughts! Extreme and I have been very satisfied with the results. Thanks John, Will do ASAP, Yes we were lucky! Unfortunately some might not be so lucky Thanks xtreme4099, Yes, the packing came as a little bit of a shock, but your right "we got them" I guess I didn't look at them, but yes its going to reqire a different connector, but I have an idea, since two of the three mid diaphragms have the the small Klipsch male spade, I think I am going to use a male spade crimped and soldered with a wire on it to the new mid, I will drill a new hole lower then the existing hole in the male spade of the diaphragm and solder to that preserving the spade that is on the new Titanium diaphragm. Just in case I use it for another project or god forbid I don't like the diaphragm, but judging what you guys have to say about it, thats unlikely. This allows me to attach the existing Forte female spades that I have attached to my AudioQuest Indigo internal Forte wiring that I use for the midrange and the tweeter. I use AudioQuest Midnight for my woofer with my original Forte female spades attached to it as well. All I did was use about a fraction of an inch of the original wire and soldered it to the AudioQuest wire. Worked like a charm.. I'll post ASAP SET12

My Titanium's arrived yesterday [] Wednesday afternoon from Hope they were shipped Monday via FEDEX. I think Klipsch Parts could take some lessons in packaging from Mr. Bob Crites who has superior packing for a $70 product vs this one at something like a $160. Needless to say, I was a little alarmed at when I saw the phase plug popping through the tops of their boxes. For the price of these, they should be better protected, they could of been crushed easily even though their boxes are pretty stiff and the diaphrams are a very tight fit. I still didn't like it. They came in a flexible bag that has one of those zip strings to pull to open it. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I had the opportunity to purchase them, but Geez I would imagine some of these could get damaged easily shipped like these were, so be careful to look them over should you purchase them. I hope to have them installed Friday Morning maybe or sooner if I can, I will have some contrasting photo's of the three, the stock, Crites and the Titanium. Paper work says: The squawker diaphragm gives dealer and consumer a like the opportunity to make less expensive repairs in the field for the following KLIPSCH models: K-53-K, K-57-K, K-52-K, K-58-K, K-59-K, K-52H-K, K-62-K, K-61-K I'm so looking forward to hearing them as I know you all would like to know how they perform as well! L8ter SET12

Well Frank, I hear you to, sometimes good enough is good enough, as my buddy said about computers "You don't need a locomotive to go to the grocery store" which is why I use 3-$400 computers as I'm just a user of need to get to the forums. I also couldn't argue with the fact your upgrades are better than stock! With my needs I need a locomotive and I need the performance of a $10,000 speaker product or more which is why I had to design and build my own amplifiers and do my crossover mod's otherwise I get bored as I have a number of friends that have 40-$50,000 systems with $10,000 CDP's that have spoiled me! my own CDP is extremely modified to the point of having a power supply that is as big as some home theater amplifiers and the only recourse I had was to do some extreme modifications to compete with those systems. And I think I have succeeded more than what I ever expected to and have had much enjoyment from it as well. To move up the Klipsch line can certainly yield improvements for anyone but unfortunately at the level my Fortes are at subjectively the stock Klipsch networks aren't going to do much for me and I would have to do extreme mods just as well on them as well. What I like about the Forte in general is its size as its physical foot print is small but with the mods its stage is like a Titan standing before you, I continually lately pull the grills of and just stare at the small horns in amazement at the sheer size of stage they throw out. Its kind of like the movie Sea Biscuit the little horse that competed with giant thoroughbreds, Sea Biscuit was laugh at cause he was small, till he ran on the track. This is the fun of the Forte I'm having. Though with other Klipsch's like the Cornwall's and others I think just as amazing things could be done with them as as well. Certainly we all have our roads and I have taken many but never like the ride down this one. Cheers SET12

I know Bob was working on them from what I recall hearing somewhere, he just hasn't liked what he has heard so far. It took Bob I think two yrs to develop his current mids. Paying a bit more than what you paid for your Forte's LOL, imagine 6-7 times the $400 in parts that I paid! yeah I know ridiculous! But as I like to say, ridiculous is how good the sound is, and you have just scratched the surface! Every penny I spent was heard good or bad fortunately my instinct was good so I didn't spend much for the bad, a few hundred, but still even then its been worth the trouble by far and the Forte's are giant killers IMO not to mention the people that have heard them. SET12

Thanks xtreme4099, Wow thats some enthusiasm, beryllium diaphragms that would be something, But even with Crites mids my transperancy is off the charts when I can resolve the grain in master tapes from coarse to fine, in a silk like way how much further can it go? well I have shook my head before I guessI'll shake it again. Yeah I'd guess my Crossovers are ridiculous. But the ridiculous thing is and unbelievably I could of spent 5 times more on them like to the tune of $10,000 very easily, check out the price of a Duelund Silver VSF 1uf Cap at a $834 each. Then there are their Cast even more! Duelund Inductors like 4 times the cost of a North Creek. I guess I'm on a budget after all! 30hz to 50khz yeah thats about it, but the low end like a sub but better because the North Creeks exploit it to 700Hz vs a sub to 120hz its something to hear to be believed, To hear the stock in contrast and how much is lost in the wimpy inductors or from iron core inductors in general not to mention I firmly believe iron core inductors are largely responsible for shrinking the stage size. and on the North Creek FAQ's its pointed out how Iron Core Inductors compress sound and I can concur, ridiculous is listening to a stock Forte with literally 1/2 of the stage width that I listen to with the modified. I could never go back. When I asked my buddy who owns the stock Fortes what he thinks of the new Crites Mids he replied "I can't talk I'm speechless go to the next cut" Then he replied, I'm lucky cause you did all the work and I only have to buy the parts! That moment was priceless, I have had a few others like a recoding engineer that I thought his neck was goin to do a 360! As he turned around and looked at me with his mouth wide ope, I'd been meaning to give him a call its been a while. Anyway its all a matter of subjective opinion of course but I have never had anyone not nodding their head over something in the Forte's presentation. Its been a fantastic journey and I welcome anyone a listen who cares to regardless whether its their cup of tea or not. I just want to say thank you Klipsch for some of the satisfying DIY audio that I have ever experienced in 35 yrs after tens and tens of thousands of $ in other commercial gear. As I said xtreme4099 I'm so looking forward to to it, Thanks! SET12

No I didn't order the complete driver as I have no need of it since I'm using the exponential horns. This way the gaskets will be fresh and I don't have to take apart the driver I like your enthusiasm, it should be an interesting listening session with them especially with the autotransformers and caps I'm using which BTW are very expensive. I was figuring out the cost and I will have nearly $700 in parts vs the stock of nearly maybe $100. As I posted on my AK thread I have had no regrets on my Forte Journey, only enlightenment and great satisfaction especially with the extreme crossovers that I built. One thing that I'm curious about is, is there any break in time that you noticed? With the Crites diaphragms there was at least 10 hrs probably before I heard a change and after about 40-50hrs it was substantial the midrange just opened up like a flower. Initially the Crites gave a narrow stage as I have an extremely wide and tall soundstage, infact you'd think there were Khorns in the room I know this statement will likely get some attention but if you were to hear a stock Forte in my listening room its stage would be half the size of my modified Fortes. But anyway as the hrs piled on them the stage eventually exceeded the stock diaphragms, I almost went back to the stock but I heard improvements in other areas that made me want to give the Crites time and it was well worth the wait. I must say I have the deepest respect for Bob Crites, his voicing of his mids that he did was truly godsend IMO. Anyway I'm hoping that the Duelund caps and the beautiful neutral and open sounding C-Core Autotransformers will exploit all the Titanium's virtues as much as I have gotten from the Crites Titanium Tweeters. I love transparency, and I'm hoping to hear even more harmonic information especially since I have SET amplifiers. Also the parts guy was a little confused as to what the part # was he went checking and gave me the part # for the K-52/53-TI as 127122 K-52/53-TI DIAPH. KIT 2 EA 156.00 SET12

Mine are on their way and should be here by next weekend. I asked how many were in stock and was told more than 50. Looking forward to them! I will be coupling them with Duelund Copper VSF Caps and German C-Core Autotransformers. SET12

Thanks, will do! L8ter SET12

So How are your Titanium Mids yet? From my experiance with the Crites they get substantially better with time, a couple hundred hrs and they are pretty much fully developed but they need at least 40-50hrs to really start showing their stuff! I am very much interested in the the Titanium's even if I have to purchase the complete driver assembly, but is there any more word on getting them by just purchasing the diaphragms? Or do you think I'm going to have to purchase the complete Drivers? Thanks SET12

.....He's not joking! Great to hear from you Dan. Thanks Scott, Hearing is believing as you have. Dan

Hi Joe, Two areas for punch that are often overlooked IMO are speaker inductors and amplifier power supply DCR. I thought you might find this interesting, I might add I own pair of these inductors and I completely agree with the comments made here. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/14/147282.html As to amplifiers, IMO high impedance chokes really destroy the impact of a good SET. My DCR path to the transformer is a mere 3.5 ohms I have impact that is felt not only in the seat of pants but heard across a street with doors and windows closed as my wife tells me. Its really though a system thing IMO when it gets right down to it. Every component has to have a solid foundation just as my Modified Sony X77ES CDP that I use Direct with Burson Discrete Op Amps and 150,000uf's of Muse caps that put the pedal to the medal. 2 watts on your speakers is like 20 watts on mine. But I do it with Just 10. But can a 2 watt have slam? you bet , if its design so that its supply can move energy rather than hinder it as most SET's do IMO. You might say I do some very controversial stuff, but I get results. I need no sub, IMO the punch with the North Creek Inductors has greater range for punch and they were worth every penny. Like a Jack Hammer to 30hz - 700hz SET12

Thanks Al, I'll make an adjustment

Isn't it something? AL I have talked with others that have similarly done what I have done and they to have had as much satisfaction. When I tried to suggest to some using your Universal, they felt the simple parts count with very high subjective quality parts did more for them. Upon hearing the Universals in LaScala's it inspired me to improve the parts quality in my Fortes. Which did indeed vastly improve the sound. Even more amazing is the level of satisfaction with rudimentary electronics though mine are a little less rudimentary. I had a friend visit here from out of town that owns a pair of LaScala's equipped with the extreme slope networks that was very amazed at how such high quality parts could sound in the Forte's basic design. I was able to visit him as well to hear his LaScala's which I enjoyed the privilege of hearing. But in contrast to what my Fortes can do, I still would prefer the Fortes. In all likelihood setup and electronics can certainly be a factor. But one thing I'd like to say is thanks for all your work, as without it I don't think I would of been as inspired to go as far as I have. SET12

I think if ALK can get away with this Without coupling I can't see an issue with what I have its nearly 90 degrees. As to the Autotransformers, they are worlds apart in sound presentation and hardly a subtle difference from one another and not just in my opinion. I do have listeners here with vast music listening experience as well as experience with gear. As far as my connections I consider the terminal blocks as good as any crimp IMO. And there is far more to be concerned with in a crossover IMO anyway. With the inductors I simply used the stock values as provided by Klipsch the tweeter inductor was stamped .16mh, the DCRs are the only difference. I basically liked the stock speaker and worked with the stock network. I am fully aware of ALK's work and understand the stock networks electrical short comings with phase and impeadance all over the place. But even still subjectively the speaker was involving and today it is vastly another experience that competes with Kilpsch's costing thousands more IMO. They work for me and I have owned some pretty high end stuff through the yrs, yet nothing has given me the level of satisfaction of my modified Fortes. IMO caps very greatly in their time to settle which in my experience can vary from tens of hrs to several hundred hrs and I agree with these people http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm I have had many people here that were impressed with what they heard some even very shocked so much so they did not even want to listen to the stock Forte's at all after an AB. Lastly it doesn't matter whether your impressed or not the proof is in the listening SET12

Jake, I'm with you! I have a pair of stock Fortes here. I can tell you that the sound stage of my modified Fortes doubled in size over the stock Fortes along with a host of other improments with same electronics. Is there a measurement for this? No!

Nice work, I have had my outboard networks for a number of yrs now and have had several brands of parts involved in my networks, the most recent are these C-Core Autotransformers I purchased off of e-bay from Germany they are very full sounding without the compression I hear in the stock units. I was using the Crites with larger cores over the stock units. The Crites also have greater transparency of the stock as well with greater capacity for volume. The C-Cores pictured do not appear to have the transparency of the Crites as well but in every other area I find the C-Cores superior. I made an adjustment to my SET amps coupling caps and was able to pull better transparency from the C-Cores while retaining there very good basic performance. They weren't cheap nor are they the most expensive but were $250 to get them here. The presentation they present remind me of some very good planer speakers but with more specific imaging. The C-Cores I have were made in -1db steps with 14 steps. Its very interesting what can be had from a pair of Fortes. SET12

If you really want to get some where with a Forte check my thread out here http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340

Absolutely, That's basically that's what I did as pictured in my avatar with an 811-10 for 10 watts of Class A2 with all my own metal work with simple hand tools, later I expanded successfully with a C4S current source for my driver stage, Anode Choke for the Cathode driver stage and a grid choke for 811-10 grid input and a massive isolated 1920uf supply/mono-block for some very powerful transparent amplifiers. Although I do posse electronics knowledge one can indeed build these simple circuits before going further as I have. SET12