thoppa

Hi again, The speakers sound superb and look good too, and they were really good value aswell, so despite the minor flaws, I'm still very happy with them. I hope to make them the rears one day and get some RF-62s for the front. The horn moulding was the problem - the circular raised projection was a little too wide on one side. It was not flash or spur or excess or stuff like that. I think the item was injection moulded and the shape of the die is the problem ? From a manufacturing point of view, it's probably easier to change the tweeter surround as it is a much smaller part. The tube looks the same as yours on the outside - the pieces are together as far as they can be. Weird eh ? As this is only in one speaker I have no idea why this should be so. My best guess would be that very similar tubes from two different model speakers got mixed together so I have a tube with a shorter flange from one model and a tube with a longer flange from another ? Because they have the same overall length and looked like they were correctly assembled from the outside, it's something that the factory worker could easily overlook. The epoxy has set and the bore is smooth enough now so I've sprayed it semi-gloss black and glued it back into the cabinet - easy job in fact. Thanks for helping me out - it's really great you care about this. Despite the two minor faults, I'm a Klipsch fan - awesome speakers !! Thanks again,

Thanks Trey - it looks like just a little mdf came off with the tube so I'll give that a try ! I'll remove it and fill it and then my lovely RF-52s will be perfect!! I've tried to attach a pdf of the problems - if you look at the heatsink on the tweeter you can see it isn't exactly perpendicular to the horn and the right edge of the mount is twisted up just a little. The channelin the bass reflex tube is pretty obvious. Thanks for your help - I really appreciate it. Tom P.S. already done - just waiting for the epoxy putty to set. Thanks again - it's great to receive such personal customer service ! RF-52 Tweeter and reflex tube.pdf

Me again. I removed the front panel and lower bass driver and got my arm into the speaker. The innermost section of tube is actually sitting flush with the middle section on the outside so obviously whoever assembled it wouldn't know there was a problem unless they had also checked the bore. In the bore there is a 5mm channel on the inside. I checked the other speaker and made some measurements. Both speakers have identical sections of tube except for the middle sections, which are 4 to 5mm shorter on the speaker with the problem. However, the overall length of the tubes is the same because the flange on the innermost section is 4 to 5mm longer than the insert from the centre section. If I could figure out how to post pictures to this site.....? I can't see how I can fix this without the 'correct' centre section, except to fill in the channel with an epoxy putty and then sand it down. So this is what I'll have to do I guess. Any ideas ? Cheers

Hi Trey, To explain the tweeter - the tweeter's plastic surround has a circular indented channel that is obviously designed to mate with the projected circular riser on the horn. But the projected riser doesn't quite match the indent so they can't sit flush. It just takes a little work with a needle file to remove excess material on the riser so they sit sweetly together. However, I still think this is minor because the three screws that hold the tweeter surround to the horn force the tweeter surround to bend a little so the titanium face of the tweeter still fits almost perpendicular to the horn as it should. The bass tubes won't budge from the cabinet - I don't want to force them and risk cabinet damage I can't repair. Each tube is made of three sections which slot together to make the whole. They fit together leaving two minor lips that, as you say, are not a problem. However, one of the tubes has not been fitted together properly and there is not a lip but a channel which is about a cm wide. This is between the inner most section and middle section of the tube. I can loosen the innermost section it but so far I haven't managed to get it to slot sweetly onto the middle section so it fits flush with just a minor lip. Do these parts just clip together ? Do I just need to use more force ? I am not using my full strength on them for fear of damage/cracking etc. Thanks for posting Trey - much appreciated !!

Well, what can I say ? The horn moulding for both tweeters was off so it was clearly a die problem - I have kept two photos of it if you want to see them. In the pic, you will see the right hand edge is 1mm higher and there is clearly a bend across the base of the tweeter mounting from left to right. I live in Hong Kong so there isn't any way I can return the speakers or make a warranty claim as far as I'm aware and actually I wouldn't want to; I am quite happy to fix the moulding myself and I think it is a minor problem anyway. I couldn't fix the bass tube problem because it is glued together already and I would have to break the tube and break this from the cabinet to do it and that would create a worse problem in the end. It is something I have to live with. If someone from Klipsch is reading this and would like to offer to fix this problem then do get in touch !! I work in Hong Kong and of course I've been to the mainland many times and have western friends who work there. Some like it, some hate it. All agree that the quality standards are lower and for many factory workers it really is necessary to stand over their shoulders and make sure they do things 'right'. However, they often work much longer hours than western people and for less money so I think it is a case of getting what you pay for. All agree that Chinese people are very warm and friendly people and this has been my experience when I've got to know them. They don't respect strangers, however, that is hardly surprising with a billion of them in your face. Anyway, I love my RF-52s and recommend them highly ! I just wish I'd checked them in the shop but I didn't know I needed to. You guys living in the US don't need to worry - it's easy for you to take things back if you are not perfectly happy. You have the best of it ! Be happy !

Hi Dr ! How's things ? I think the reason the Zhaolu didn't impress me was the change of system/listening environment more than anything else. It was a shame I couldn't listen to it in the same room etc. but it also looked and felt very cheap and that put me off a lot too. As for the Great March 2, volume doesn't explain a "s" turning into a "sh". It wash shlurring the sharpsh, no queshtion. Yep, I agree, louder can seem to be better but I tried volume changes, especially with the Musiland so I don't think it was this. I also have an ear calibrator fitted recently - it is a pair of uniquely moulded earplugs that have a variable orifice control with an air pressure regulator. They fit above the ears and clamp on my head in a similar way to shooting muffs. Turn the muff-lump clockwise for louder. They are very hard to find commercially. The last time I saw them on anyone was in a movie called Star Wars and Carrie Fisher had a pair of them on the whole time. So anyway, no I don't think it was volume. I think the Great March 2 is a load of bollocks. Cheers

Hi all, I live In Hong Kong and I have a pair of RF-52s. Two faults : the bass reflex tube is made of two sections and in one of the speakers these two sections had not been fitted together completely so the tube is longer in one speaker than in the other and it does not have a smooth bore either. the tweeter drives don't fit perfectly flush to the horn because the back of the horn moulding is out of spec forcing the driver to sit on at an angle. It was very minor and took 30 minutes with a fine needle file to change the moulding so it fitted perfectly onto the driver. I posted about this before and mentioned that,as an example of Chinese quality control, Zeiss had planned to make the ZA16-80mm SLR lens in China but the factory failed to meet Zeiss' standards and this lens was delayed four months to market because production had to move to Japan. Chinese quality control is not as good as other countries, even other Asian countries, so check the goods you buy - YOU are the quality control officer. Cheers

Hi BM, My Musiland has been runnng faultlessly ever since my last post and I'm totally in love with it ! I have upgraded the output connectors and, just as a mark of 'pride of ownership', I polished the front wedge of aluminium into a mirror finish, and painted the case white. I haven't felt the need to upgrade the power supply but it is next on my list. As well as the ASIO sound card input, I've also got a Pioneer DVD-A/SACD player which I have modded with an AD1896 re-sampler and a Tent Labs XO so it gives a jitter-free 96Khz/24 bit output for CD, DVD-A and SACD. This supplies the Musiland and the combination has surpassed all my expectations. The AD1896 and Tent Labs XO is a stunning combination and they show the Musiland is extremely capable and much better than my initial assessment. I'm especially surprised with the headphone output providing better sound than the RCA. Have you noticed this ? I'm now exploiting this by running it into a 47 ohm load - it seems to thrive driving low impedance. The Great March is/was a bargain but the Great March 2 was abysmal by comparison. Honestly, I heard it clearly smear high-end detail, not reveal it. I spent hours listening to these DACs back to back with a wide range of music in a decent listening room, however, the issue may not be the quality of the design, but quality control. Maybe I was listening to a lemon not a peach ? Maybe I'm just a bad apple.... Cheers

Hi, I'm sorry I can't help much with this because I've never heard the 35s so I really don't know. I heard the 52s and 62s and noticed a difference in the midrange especially. If the 35s are reference 3, then I understand they will sound much brighter than either of the others. You really must listen to them to decide if you like them - bright speakers can seem very attractive at first but might (I stress might) get tiring after some time. You will keep these babies for some time I imagine so you should take the the advice by jetjockey above. You might also end up using them in a much larger room. If the dealer insists they're better ask him to prove it and set both up - take along your own CD with some bright recordings of stuff like rock music - lots of cymbals etc. Bear in mind rooms have a big effect on sound and they will sound different at home. Maybe you can get them on return ? Anyway, you should trust your ears not a salesman's whispers....he might just be flogging off old stock.

Hi, I thought I'd start a thread getting people to list 'best demo' tracks and why. It's been said before that the best ones are ones you know, but I know a lot of dance tracks very well and wouldn't consider them for demos. So, any favourites ? What should I listen for ?

I completely agree with the above, but would add that while the bass response for both 62 and 52 is similar in most 'small' rooms, the 62 will go 'louder' because, simply, they can move more air. However, it seems complaints from the neighbours was your problem in the first place. Me too. I get scowled at. The 62s are definitely better made and have a better overall sound quality, so if you can, get them. I would love to get a pair and move my 52s to the rear one day. Anyway, you are totally on the right track choosing Klipsch. It will never be a decision you'll regret. Cheers,

Hi, I have a pair of RF52s. I love them but they are not perfect. They are very good value. I paid US$540. I don't know about the other speakers but I can tell you quite a lot about the RF52. They are built to a price - you can have a look inside the bass reflex tube and see it is not a one-piece moulding but three pieces which might not have been put together perfectly so have a look. The drivers are great but the crossover is quite cheap - cheap attenuating resistor for the tweeter, iron-core inductor for the bass and only moderate quality caps. Overall, they lack vocal warmth (I think to avoid resonances in that range), they have a slightly over-bright upper midrange which combined with the slightly muted lower midrange makes female voices sound clear but lacking depth. Ella Fitzgerald etc are a good test for this I think. For me, the high end treble is too recessed. I have no complaints about the bass - it is deep, responsive and satisfying but this will depend a lot on your amp (they are effectively a 4 ohm load) and your room. You may find they have a few over-strong notes and other more muted ones. Massive Attack albums are a good test for this I think. People will dismiss 5.25" drivers out of hand in favor of 6.25" ones formany valid reasons but you should listen to them if you can. Smaller drives don't suffer from resonance break up as much as larger ones and have faster transient response; and music is all about transients. I would not buy a speaker with 8" drives unless they were in a three-way system. Certainly, the best advice is to listen and choose but failing that, go for the RF62 if they are not too expensive. I listened and decided to save my money and get the RF52 because I could get a good price on them and I have a small-ish room (6metres by 4metres). I have bi-amped them and so upgrading the crossover was not an issue for me. Enjoy the choice and take your time eh ? Tom

Couldn't agree more Dave ! Unfortunately, I have to pick my moments to crank it up - neighbours and all that. But I love the way the bass can attack so fast it 'jiggles me innards' and can then instantly vanish without a trace. When I first connected up my little credit-card-sized class-T amp using a cheap smps power supply, I was also quite surprised, however, the power supply was noisy so I went out and got a 6.5 amp 13.8V supply (US$20...goodness...so much...the RCA cables cost more) and added a bypass cap to the output stage too. I stopped using my Onkyo overnight. It's noisier, distorts more, has a 'thinner' bass and doesn't seem to have the dynamics of the class-T. So I'm a convert ! I now have two amps, each with their own 6.5 amp supply (total overkill for an amp that will draw about 3 amps ?!) and vertical bi-amped so the separation is as good as my DAC can deliver. A friend has a vinyl/tube system that cost in excess of 10 times mine, and yes, it sounds sweeter than anything else I've heard. It also looks a lot more 'audiophile'. My system is invisible really - it's just a DAC and two speakers, fed from a PC. But for the money I don't see how I could have got better. Your Panasonic sounds like a real bargain !! I think like every other kind of amp, there are good class-T or class-D amps and also some bad ones. Not all the Tripath chips are equal either. So I feel duty bound to qualify my statements above and say my amps use the TA2020 (now surpassed by the TA2021), surface mount components and good quality components everywhere too - Blackgates etc. I now dream of an HD-DVD/Blu-ray system that is pure digital with individual PWM amps mounted on the back of each driver, and tailored specifically for that driver. I live in hope... Tom

So if you wanna dump the xo in your RF52 and move it to the line level side of your amp, to get a much improved speaker, here are the components I am using : For the HF channel 0.267uF (0.22 and 0.047 in parallel) and 520 ohm resistor , then a 0.0075uF with the 20K ohm amp input resistance For the LF channel 75 ohm and 2.2uF cap, then 330 ohm and 0.47uF cap. At the power level, the tweeter has a 3.3uF cap and an L-pad attentuator that uses a 3.3 ohm in series and a 47 ohm in parallel. The resistors are Riken Ohm and the caps are either Sonicap, Multicap or Mundorf M-Cap silver/oil so it sounds really very good indeed. I thoroughly recommend buying the best components you can afford as this seems to be critical in a pllxo. They can be tricky little buggers to get spot on. Anyway, the values would make a good starting point from which you can get the sound balance you want.

As a semi-DIY alternative you could try the class-T amp from DIY Paradise - I have used them for bi-amping and they are anything but weak and hissy. I actually bought one just out of curiosity and found I preferred it to my Onkyo receiver, so I got a second, modded them both and and use one for each speaker. They sound fine with an SMPS 13.8V power supply.

Yes indeed - my room is very bad...there's a huge concrete beam where a wall used to be that I swear is causing a mid-bass resonance.... But actually I have now finished tweaking. All done. Just enjoying the music and the satisfaction of a job done, for now...[] Thanks for your help ! It really is much appreciated. That software probably saved me weeks and a small fortune in resistors and caps. Cheers, Tom

Here is a screenshot of the bass driver only - no XO - using my Onkyo. As you can see , spikey ! But it still helps with relative changes....

Hi, I had never heard of Klipsch until about a year ago when I was following threads on efficient loudspeakers. This might be because I'm from the UK, but I used to work in a hi-fi shop with all the usual brands like Wharfedale, B+W, Kef, etc. Here in HK, it seems almost no-one has heard of the them (or can pronounce them either) and they try to get well over the list price for them too. So are Klipsch widely known in the US ? How did you hear about them ? Just curious... Cheers

Yes - a very cool tool ![H] Thank you so much for directing me to it. I have found that it has really helped me quantify problems and measure minute changes. Of course, my room acoustics etc are messing up the overall measurements but as a relative test it has quickly become essential ! Thanks ! I might move on to the roomeq in due course....when I next get the itch to tweak... [] Cheers

5 out of 6 out of phase ? How come it doesn't say 1 out of 6 ...? Am I missing something...?

Hi, I'm only doing the acoustic output of the speakers simply because I prefer to try to tweak this way. I must admit that I'm using a crappy condenser mic from a handsfree car kit because my good dynamic doesn't work with my soundcard. The software allows mic calibration by selecting the measure tab and a mic test response ( after already setting up the sweep test signal from the resource tab ) and then selecting this in calibration from the options tab. As I'm really only interested in the range over the crossover I don't think I need a better mic anyway. It isn't accurate enough to publish the results with any authority but it does confirm what I'm hearing and helps me consider improvements. So now I can simply change a resistor value, listen, do a sweep test to check and then work out the next change. Easy... I have abandoned the Klipsch crossover 'model'. It gives a flat response but doesn't sound as warm or as detailed. I am now using 24dB per octave for the tweeter to run it as low as possible before the horn resonance kicks in and it screams at me. The woofer is a bigger challenge. There is a fixed dip in response at 1.3Khz - just below the crossover - and it rings a bit at just below that frequency too. I'm using 18dB for this. So far I have managed to get pretty smooth roll offs but more testing and fine tweaking is needed. I'm sure I'll come to the point of 'best compromise' soon......... cheers,

Hi, Yes, I agree - some differences are clear, some can be measured but it seems to me that others are such a finesse that it is more psychological than anything - my optical cable is an example - will a glass one really sound better than a good polymer fibre ? Hmmm.... I've been using the software recommended by Dr Who to do sweep tests of the frequency response. (Thanks Mike !!!) It has confirmed that my ears are pretty good - phew ! [] The response is reasonably flat across the range of frequencies I'm toying with (700Hz - 3750Hz) plus I've filled in a couple of holes and improved a lot on the original reproduction. It's amazing how much spatial stereo info there is in the upper mid-range so getting tis right has improved the sound field. The original (side-by-side against my bi-amped one) now sounds a hollow and 'dry' in the mid-range and lacks the top-end crispness and clarity I have now. Forget comparing the bass - the original is so muffled by comparison it's immediately obvious. I would say this is a clear benefit of connecting the amps straight to the woofers. Overall the caps are still settling in too so the sound should only get better. I've got it running 24hrs as I'm so impatient to get it all settled ! Apparently, M-Cap silver/oil can take a couple of weeks... As you say, much of the rest is dependant on things I cannot change. I'm now just going through my music collection listening to instruments and voices to find problems that can help me tweak resistor values. If only I didn't have to work..... RF-52 have dips at 1.3Khz and 4.5khz that don't seem to be curable but also don't seem to affect the reproduction.The deep bass region looks more like a couple of camels backs than a smooth response but again, it sounds good. When I finish, I'll post the setup info so anyone doing their own mods to RF52 has somewhere better to start than the original crossover. Cheers,

Massively simplified. My HF is doing this : HP-HP-HP-AMP-(LP-LP pwm filter)-HP My LF is doing this : LP-LP-HP-AMP-(LP-LP pwm filter) Relative Phase change HF = HP HP HP = +135 LF = LP LP = -90 It's close to 180 so I expected to have to swap the tweeter cables around but I think Klipsch may already have wired it this way. Either that or my amp is inverting somehow...odd. But in any event I have to give this up - as said it is a complex bit of engineering and although I'd like to try to get a full 180 shift for both channels, I'll worry about this 'little' problem another time....

Hi, Open the speaker crossover document listed on Pi's website : http://www.pispeakers.com/contents.html and scroll through to page 27. It says a single capacitor in line with a tweeter (common in bi-amping) will resonate and cause peaks in the response. It also says an L-pad will damp this resonance - the L-pad is to attenuate a tweeter to the level of efficiency of the woofer of course. With an active line level xo you can obviously just adjust the gain so an L-pad is not necessary. As always, I like making life difficult in an effort to integrate/minimise the component count. I decided not to use the cap in line with my tweeter only for protection but, as it is yet another high pass filter, make it work as part of the crossover. I can do this as I'm using a pllxo not allxo; so it is just one less cap in the pllxo. My tweeter is about (!) 2.9dB more efficient than the pair of woofers together so I am using an L-pad (Mills resistors...) to knock it back 2 dB and avoid peaking - trusting in Pi's data. I'm also using the gain on the amp input to fine tune the final .9dB or so to my taste. I was wondering if anyone has any experience of this and could confirm or otherwise the date from the guys at Pi. Incidentally, I also tried bypassing the rather crappy resistor used to attenuate in the original crossover. I used an L-pad instead to maintain the 12 ohm impedance and reduce output by 2.5dB. It was quite surprising to find that beyond anything else, this crappy little resistor worth less than 30 cents was THE limiting factor of my $540 speakers. For less than US$10 my speakers sounded MUCH more open and detailed with more extended response and the slightly brighter output so characteristic of Klipsch. It was this discovery that made me realise you were so right to tell me not to copy the Klipsch crossover. I'm now trying to learn to use the software to do sweep tests and 'start again', again. What a great hobby this is !! I love it. Cheers, Tom. PS I hope everything is all right with your countrymen down there in the South - it got a bit blowy by all accounts ?

Hi, So your protection cap has a value that is two octaves below the crossover ? i.e. for a 12 ohm tweeter, crossover 4khz, your cap is 15uF or more ? Do you use an L-pad or any attenuator ? Cheers, Tom