Klipschguy
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Posts posted by Klipschguy
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8 hours ago, Deang said:
I’ve already submitted the question.
This somehow went from “some”, to most AA’s built in the 70’s, to every AA built in PK’s adult life, lol!
Hmm….I never said “every AA built”, I said “widespread use in the 70s”; there is a big difference in the meaning.
The AA came around in ‘71 and went out of production in early ‘83, so the 70s is indeed a big chunk of the life of that particular network. My ‘81 KH had brass while all 6 of Ed W’s La Scalas have ferrous as a “stock configuration” - just a couple of examples.
As Travis states, maybe “Tested by” equipment may or may not have been capable of catching “the error” but I do know knowledgeable, hardworking people were certifying each speaker then signing their names with pride (representing the Klipsch name).
I will be interested in what JRH has to say. Whatever the case, these “flawed AA networks” sound quite good in my opinion. 😉
Respectfully,
Andy
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6 hours ago, Deang said:
The schematic shows 245uH. A plot revealed that it moves the crossover point down, which would potentially put the diaphragm in distress and induce distortion. It also moves the target frequency for the EQ that brings the peak down in the K-77.
It doesn’t matter if Klipsch missed these, or if it sounds better to one set of ears. It’s wrong, and should be fixed.
Hi Dean,
I respectfully disagree. I am convinced Mr. Paul Klipsch did it on purpose; he was way too bright to let such a widespread defect occur for almost the entire life of the AA network. You agreed back in 2005, but that was a long time ago (BEC was trying to set you straight). Perhaps in time I will come around to your way of thinking. Thank you for taking time to share your thoughts; the exchange of thoughts and ideas makes us all better as we pursue audio excellence.
Cheers,
Andy
P.S. The K77 is perfectly safe with the .34mH of inductance in the AA except for cases of EXTREME abuse. -
5 hours ago, JohnA said:
I did that to my center channel Heresy so it matches my Type AA La Scalas as much as practical. The Type AA filter EQs the driver a little, but the Type E network compensates for the K-77s response hump well enough and the auto former protects it well enough, too. You may not notice much difference.
Hi John,
Did you do anything else to the crossover to match the La Scala? Just curious.
Andy-
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True, Edgar. However, if feeding a Khorn speaker system, the amplifier power it would take to saturate the inductor in the tweeter leg of a AA network…well one would not want to be in the same room! Of course you did say “when the current is high.”
I guess the ideal solution is to buy an air core .34mH inductor if saturation proves problematic! 😉
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Not that one (but thanks for posting).
The title is: AA Network sounds better with…
Not sure how to link it.
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Yes - a technical error (I did not think otherwise)
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The exact year I do not know but it seems like a bunch of AAs from the 70s are ferrous (some I have checked first hand, some as reported by members of this forum). My brother’s 1950s Khorns use brass machine screws in the 500-5000 crossovers, so the impact of ferrous metal was well known to Mr. Klipsch. I would be interested in what Jim has to say as his available resources far exceed my own.
BTW, 001 posted a link to the AA ferrous screw thread, but it doesn’t seem to be there now.
Respectfully,
Andy
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9 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:
I steel/iron/ferrous screw near an inductor, generally will lower the value of the inductor, thus changing the crossover frequency.
However, based on a conversation one Forum member had with Bob Crites, about 10 years ago, a crossover with a screw that was “magnetic” apparently bumped up the 245 uH value inductor to 350uH.
If you have a multimeter that measures inductance you can check them yourself (which I highly recommend) to see. I can’t speak to what this equates to in the amount of change in XO frequency, and whether it is up or down. @Deang or @Edgar can address that.
It is also my understanding that you don’t want a screw that is magnetic or conductive. A conducive screw can also cause changes that can’t be measured, so the preferred material would s nylon/plastic. Some use hot glue to secure inductors to the board, or nylon zip ties. Again, Dean and “Edgar” would know way more about this, what works best, if worth worrying about etc.
I’m not sure the magnetic screws were the “wrong screws.” I think what this relates to is the misunderstanding that stainless steel is not magnetic. Some types of SS are more magnetic than others, and even within a type, the amount of nickel can be within an acceptable range and meet spec. The chromium is the key for corrosion resistance and the only tight number “18” for example is it is at
least 18% chromium. When nickel is high in price they put less in and more magnetic that batch becomes. The process on how they make the screws can also magnetize them (cold processing to make heads and threads will cause magnetization for example).
Like I say, Edgar and Dean have a lot of experience with what the best way to secure an air core inductor to an XO board would be.
Hi Travis,
Someone modeled the ferrous versus non-ferrous screw in another thread; the subsequent rise in the inductor value (I measured about .34mH) shifted the crossover frequency from 5800 to 4800. Every AA from the 70s I have seen has had the ferrous screws. My ‘81 Khorn had brass. It took me a while to figure out why I liked my ‘76 better. At first I thought it was the dual phase plug K55 in the ‘81 vs the single phase plug K55 in the ‘76, but when I swapped the K55s, the difference persisted (I could not hear a difference in the single vs dual phase plug K55s and the ‘76 still won the day). Then I changed the caps, but still basically the same (‘76 was still better). THEN, I changed out the non-ferrous screw; the ‘81 & ‘76 suddenly sounded the same (outstanding) - easy fix! I shared my findings here, but some received the findings better than others. Maybe the ferrous screw was intentional, maybe it was not, but either way the Khorn is a great speaker. I do know the official spec is for .245mH not .34mH, so to each his own.
Respectfully,
Andy
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Great info - thanks, Mike!
You know, I am always amazed at the level of knowledge on this forum and the willingness to help others; it really is a testimony to the people who listen to Klipsch speakers which in turn pays respect to Mr. Paul Klipsch. BTW, I recently finished rereading his book - a true legend.
Andy
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In my humble opinion; the magnetic screws sound “better in” per my Khorns (a closer approximation to a live performance - “fidelity”). Maybe it was a 10+ year production mistake through the 1970s, maybe it wasn’t, but the bit of extra “oomph” in the lower treble makes a big difference, especially with vocals and acoustic instruments. When I took mine out, it robbed some of the speaker’s magic, so back in the screws went. Your mileage may vary, just do whatever sounds best to your ear. The 18db/octave slope should provide plenty of tweeter protection either way. (For a commercial La Scala you may actually want to err on the side of more tweeter protection and use brass screws.)
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Thanks, Winglet.
So, the reflected impedance of the T2a tap 3 does not affect the crossover value required in the tweeter leg??
I know the tweeter leg of the HIE and the AA bypass the T2a.
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Greetings,
If one wanted to convert the tweeter leg from a 6db/oct slope to the 18db/oct as found in the AA or the HIE crossovers BUT keep the E network’s T2a tap settings (2 & 3), what capacitor and inductor values would be used?
Thank you in advance,
Andy
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001,
Thank you for your help!
Andy
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Greetings,
I have a pair of ‘73 Heresy speakers with the brown tweed grill cloth (up close it actually looks like black grill mesh with deep copper colored fibers woven in - but it appears brown at a distance).Does anyone know where I can buy some of this type cloth, or a reasonable reproduction?
I believe the H700 used this cloth as well.
Thanks in advance.
Andy
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Go to eBay & type in “Klipsch 1.2”. There is a factory diaphragm listed. Beware of aftermarket diaphragms as they rarely test as well as the OEM part. You could also buy a complete K 1.2 speaker and harvest any parts you need. Be sure and test the current tweeter first.
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On 8/17/2022 at 9:57 AM, svberger said:
McIntosh MC2105.
I foolishly sold mine last year while I was in the midst of buying madness acquiring McIntosh tube gear(MC30, MC225, MC240, MX110, C11) within a few month period. Figured that was it for solid state, and I had a MC2120 as a spare that I couldn't seem to unload(people don't like vintage ss Mac with those meters). Well, it became clear to me over the last few months that I really wish I hadn't. This amp is special and so seemingly tailored to my listening preferences, and so perfectly matches up to the MX110z(or C11) pre, not to mention arguably one of the best looking amps out there, that it became evident that I needed to reacquire. Search on, and this week a local Bay Area musician(played prominent roles with both Santana, Eddie Money & Chris Isaak) was selling one for a pal of his in financial and health straits. He was able to provide a full(and colorful) history of the amp, and the cleaning up/checking up on it to get it back into shape. It was local, it was selling for a great price(IMO), and he agreed to deliver it. A no brainer. Back here today, looking spiffy, and being used to drive a pair of AR3's. My La Scala's are driven by the MC30's, and that's a combo I ain't planning on changing anytime soon.
I hear you; my Mac 2105 is the bee’s knees!
BTW, I think the meters are fantastic; you can watch them dance to the music. They also provide useful information.
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1 hour ago, Racer X said:
Amazed at sound one can get from smallish Linn Kan, small monitors similar to LS 3/5 and I bought some for my Aunt. But there are some compromises when compared to Heresy which will of course play much louder and deeper.
Yes, my speakers are the KEF version of the LS3/5a. They are in storage now (notice not sold) as I do plan on using them in the future; they do deliver a solid musical experience. I may use them in my music/piano room. I personally would not (and did not) choose them for my MAIN system.
The point of my previous post was more of a response to the video you posted. I was pointing out that cones and domes, albeit some can be quite good, have their own set of issues.
I do stand by faithfulness-to-the-original-performance being the best metric to measure the fidelity of a loudspeaker (but not the only).
Thank you for posting this thread, RacerX.
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About a year ago I bought a small pair of British monitors to play around with. I was impressed by the smooth response, wide soundstage, and even dispersion of sound throughout the room.
However, the speakers are now in storage because ultimately they sounded like speakers and not like music. As a musician, I know what live music sounds like; if I was led blindfolded into a room with music playing, cones-and-domes would never fool me into thinking it was a live performance. A blindfold and some Khorns; well, it is startling how well they can approximate a live performance (Dave Brubeck, Take Five at live levels, anyone?). I think a lot of the issue with even some of the quite well designed, non-horn speakers is the lack of dynamics that is ever present in a live performance.
(I do realize IM distortion is also a factor, but that issue has ties to efficiency and in turn dynamics…)
Interestingly, getting the dynamics right when playing a piano score is very important; it has a tremendous impact on how good the piece sounds during a performance. The same goes for speakers.
Reproducing music that is not faithful (“fidelity”) to the live performance from which it was recorded is “non-fidelity” and therefore a form of distortion per Mr. Paul Klipsch.
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Marvel, I saw you mentioned a surgical procedure in your near future; I hope it goes smoothly with an excellent outcome.
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On 8/13/2022 at 5:29 PM, hanksjim1 said:
While you're searching for the high end classic SS amp, swap in an inexpensive Crown D-45 or D-75 (regular or "A" versions)...they are bulletproof, quiet, cheap and have XLR connections for good grounding...good enough for many studios in the day. I have tried on Khorns and LaScalas with good results.
On 8/13/2022 at 7:04 PM, the real Duke Spinner said:Make sure they are the "A" models Much improvement there
The crown recommendation is interesting. Sadly, I have never heard one. What improvements does the A version have? It looks the only the D75 (not A) has unbalanced inputs.
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Yes, I have heard good things about some of the vintage Japanese amps; Luxman has a fine reputation. Thank you all again for these great suggestions.
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BTW, I have heard the Crown studio amps and BGW tend to have noisy transformers, but otherwise sound quite good. Definite contenders.
With this second system, I listen critically to very low levels in the mornings, so the amp needs to be very quiet.
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My daily driver is a restored, ABSOLUTELY dead quiet, wonderful sounding MC2105 coupled with a modern Mac preamp. I just love the sound of an autotransformer amp. BUT, Mac equipment is more than I feel spending on this second system.
I was thinking of an upgraded Adcom 555, BGW Model 100, Crown D75, Hafler, et cetera. I am open to suggestions.
Thank you very kindly for each thoughtful response.
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Inherited 6 La Scalas - Need some assistance please
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
Travis,
Thank goodness I didn’t have coffee in my mouth when I read your “duck tape” comment!
Andy