bacevedo

I'll throw in my .02. First on the 5800 upgrade - I would bet money that the upgrade includes a new front panel door. They will upgrade it to DPLII (new logo), DTS96 (new logo) and THX Ultra 2 (new logo). I can't imagine Denon adding all these features, but leaving the old logos on the front of the receiver. That is probably a reason why the price is a little high and you have to send it in. From what I understand, it is more than a mere software upgrade. I bet when you get it back it is cleaned up inside, too! (dust blown out etc.) It will be like getting a brand new receiver (top of the line) for $500. The Onkyo only had a software upgrade, nothing else, so of course it was cheap and easy to do. I own Denon (3802 AVR and 1800 DVD Changer) and all I can say is I will probably always own Denon. The power, low background noise, sound quality and features make them unbeatable in my book. The 5800 is their flagship, and such has all out top engineering in a receiver. Maybe not as good as seperates, but as close as a receiver can get in my book. If money was not an object for a receiver, the 5800 would be it without a second thought. Secondly, boa, I don't want to rain on your parade, but the 7200 just got reveiwed by S&V (I got mine in the mail yesterday), and to put it bluntly, it did pretty bad. It only measured 29W with all 5 channels driven (27W X 6). The background noise was audible, and the measurments showed that it was a very noisy receiver! Also the sub preout was limited in dynamic range. David Ranada (like the Tom Nousaine of receivers) was left unimpressed. Just wanted to throw that out so you knew about it. In comparison the Denon 3801 was rated at 92W with all channels driven (85 X 6), and was extremely quiet - basically at the theoretical limit. He said that it performed superbly. Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Klipsch KSW12 - Sub (hopefully an RSW12 whenever they come out!) Monster Power Conditioner HTS1000 Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

Update: I am having www.discounts-n-deals.com send me a new set of cables to try. I talked with Dave there, and he is a pretty knowledgeable guy! He said it definitely shouldn't do that for a $28 cable, if my $10 RS cable doesn't! He thinks that maybe the shield was lifted on both ends and was defective. So they are sending me out some new ones to try, and paying for return shipping on the bad ones! I highly recommend this site for the AR Pro Series Cables. Good prices and great service! I will post my results when the new cables arrive next week. Bryan

Isn't a cheater plug only for a 3 prong cord? The cord on my sub is a 2 prong type, so I don't think the cheater will work for it. However, it does have one prong bigger than the other, does a cheater plug let you reverse the polarity of that, too? I also feel that if I have to use a cheater plug, then something is wrong. I won't settle for that! So instead, I will just use a different cable that doesn't exhibit this weird behavior. Bryan

Check out my post titled RSW Specs up - now let the questions begin! in this forum. I asked this same question, and the Klipsch folks answered it pretty well there. Bryan

Yeah Ray - I tried that, as well as all kinds of possible combinations. Here is what I did. Unplugging the cable from the receiver and only leaving it plugged into the sub - thump. Reversing the cable while plugging into receiver and not plugging into receiver - a little less thump, but still there. No cable plugged in at all - no thump. RS cable plugged in any which way - no thump. Plugged the Sub power cord into my Monster power conditioner, with the AR cable - thump. No matter what I did, with the AR cable the thump was always there. I posted this on HomeTheaterForum and someone there said that it is because of the floating ground. The fan is causing a difference between voltages, and with no common ground, it cause a thump. Kind of above my head. But what I wanted to know was whether this was a defective cable, or just a design flaw in the cable when used in my setup. I am thinking that this is a design flaw, and getting another cable will not solve the problem. I have decided to stick with the RS cable for the sub only. My other cables are all still the AR cables. It worries me though that the audio connectors on them are also directional (with no ground on one end). Even though I haven't heard anything, I have only had them for a little while, and would rather return them now if they are going to cause a problem in the future. Bryan

I notice that the Klipsch KSW 12 went down in the rankings. I know that S&V just tested it again, so what changed? Before it had more avg output, and no listing at 20 Hz. Did Klipsch change something in the subs, or did the measuring techniques or room change? Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Klipsch KSW12 - Sub (hopefully an RSW12 whenever they come out!) Monster Power Conditioner HTS1000 Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

I agree Ears - looking at just the sub itself without regard to price - it is pretty incredible. No corners cut. No arguing there. I would love to hear one though, just to see what it sounds like. I am looking at some SVS subs. I just figured out a good place to put a cylinder sub in my room. Behind the couch, a few feet from my sweet spot seating position. It is hard to look past that $700 price tag compared to $1400 for an RSW 12. I will just have to see what the RSW 12 does in a TN review. What would happen if you put a sub in the back of the room with you? Will it be totally out of sync with the front speakers? Is that what the phase control would be used for? Bryan Edit: Yeah! I just hit 100 posts with this post! I am so proud! This message has been edited by bacevedo on 10-03-2001 at 01:09 AM

Hey Ears - no tag teaming - just agreeing with him. If I agree with you I will let you know! I have a lot of respect for TV - he tells it like it is. If he thinks there is a better sub for the money - he will tell you. He doesn't always push his sub for all applications - shows he really is into the best bass for the buck! Bryan

Yeah Ears - let us know how that RSW 10 compares, especially to the KSW12 and your other subs. Bryan

What - piezo electric is bad?

Hello All! I have a KSW 12 hooked up to a Denon 3802 via the sub out on the receiver. I was using Radio Shack Gold Series interconnects, including a 20 foot audio cable for the sub. I recently purchased Acoustic Research Pro Series interconnects all around, including their 25 foot sub calbe. First off, these cables are pretty nice, especially for the money. I am really impressed. But, I had a problem with the sub cable. It is directional (so they say) and has an arrow pointing in one direction. They say to put this into the input, so I put this on the input of the sub. I guess (by reading on the net) that it has something to do with the way it is grounded. Who knows. Anyway, after using this cable, everytime I turn off my ceiling fan, my sub thumps. I tried everything I could think of to get rid of it. Unplugging the cable from the sub gets rid of it. Even just having the cable plugged in to only the sub gives the thump. No cables plugged in = no thump. RS cable plugged in = no thump. So I reverted back to my RS cable, and now I have no thmp when turning off the ceiling fan. It's like the cable is picking up the RF from the fan turning off and sending it to the sub. My question to everyone is, why did this happen? I supposedly got a high quality, shielded, specific for sub cable. Is it a defective cable? Should I exchange it or just return it? I heard no audible difference between my RS and AR cable, but I like the build quality and look of the AR cable, plus the connectors are much easier to work with on the AR cable. I am also anal, and like to have all of my cables be the same. Another note is that the Y-Cable I got is also going back. It seemed to have a short in it. When I would jiggle it, it would cause a loud hum (like a ground loop hum). Very weird. I am just wondering why this would happen. The cable is twisted pair, balanced and all that jazz. So let me know why it would do this. Thanks, Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Klipsch KSW12 - Sub (hopefully an RSW12 whenever they come out!) Monster Power Conditioner HTS1000 Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

TV - I couldn't agree with you more! What makes me laugh, too, is that people think just because someone is rich, that they will spend foolishly. That isn't necessarily true. Yes there are some who just like to flaunt their money (usually young trust fund babies who don't know any better), but for the most part, wealthy people want a good value, too! They didn't get wealthy by spending every dime they made! Money is not the measurement to use when measuring quality. Money is arbitrary. Things are priced based on what the market will bear (well usually), and it doesn't mean anything about the performance of the product. If there is a value in your mind that you will pay for something, then that is what it is worth, regardless of how much it cost to make it. You want to see more about pricing, check out the company I work for http://www.khimetrics.com. We use quantum physics to model pricing vs. demand and psychological effects and then optimize the entire product line. Pretty cool stuff. A little off topic, I know, but kind of pertinent to this discussion of a very overpriced sub. I wonder how many they have sold? Some food for thought! Bryan

Maybe when compared against a single sub, the Krell will win - but I think the whole point is price vs. performance. For $28K, you could get several RSW15s (or HGS18s)- and beat the crap out of that single Krell. I think that the Krell would probably be an awesome sub - but for 28 grand! Come on - there are much better ways to spend that kind of money to get good bass! The only reason it would be worthwile is if you didn't have space for multiple subs - but if you are going to spend $28k for one sub - you might as well have the room torn down and rebuilt to support multiple subs, and buy the subs, and still have some $$$ left over to rent some good DVD's! This is my opinion of course! Bryan

Couldn't you buy a US version of the RSW 15 and get some kind of voltage converter to make it compatible? I have been to Europe, and have taken converters over so I could use our electrical items (hair dryers, video camera battery chargers, etc.). Couldn't you just get one for your sub? Maybe there is more to it, but wouldn't this work? Bryan

Ah - so it is also dependent on the external amp you use with the non PC subs. If I were to use a regular receiver, then I might only get 1 db increase because of the enclosure difference. Makes sense. Thanks, Bryan

TV - why do they have 3db more headroom? Is it because the enclosure volume is slightly smaller because the amp takes up room? Just curious. Bryan

Cool - thanks. Just wondering what the time frames were. I won't be able to purchase one for a few months anyway, so I am not in a hurry, but just wondering when they would be out. Thanks again. Bryan

Doug - I think he is saying that he will follow along with the music, and let his brain fill in the bass line that he is missing! Bryan

UP, I have the Denon 3802 - so I can tell you why the volume control is the way it is. On mine the volume control goes from -70 to + 18 (I think you mean +18 in your post). The numbers represent the number of decibels from a reference point of 0 on the volume control. Their thinking is that you would calibrate your HT to 75 db with the volume control at 0. So then if you are playing at -10 on the volume control, you are playing at a calibrated level of 65 db. It is all just for reference. You now know that -20 is 10 db quieter (hence the negative sign) then -10. So they use a negative sign to show the relationship from a reference of 0. Now with Klipsch speakers, If I change my volume control to 0 and calibrate to 75 db, I end up setting my speaker levels to like -8. I thought, why should I do that? Instead, I just adjusted my volume control until my most efficient speaker (my center channel - RC-3) was at 75 db with a CHANNEL level of 0 (no cut or boost). Then I adjusted all of my other speakers from there, so that my mains are at +1, and my rears are bumped a few db as well. This then makes the maximum volume of the receiver go from +18 to like + 14, to compensate for any channels that I boosted. Likewise, if I were to lower them all, the max would go up to like +25, or whatever. So no matter how you do it, the volume levels will always be the same (in spl), but their reading on the display may be different. And you don't lose any range when doing it either way. The Denon adjusts itself so that you can still turn it up as loud as you want. The 00 point on the volume control is for ease of use - if you calibrate to that, then you know you just have to turn it back to that to play at the same level. The old volume controls without any displays left you guessing on exactly where it was. And on the topic - the RB5s will play with more than enough volume in a room. My room is something like 18 X 30 (it is a great room where the kitchen, breakfast nook and family room are all one big room), and it can get so loud that it is uncomfortable, and my receiver still has more juice left to push it. Here is another reason that I like the RB5. Think about this - the RF3 has 3 drivers (2 woofers). So now your receiver that is sending 100W or whatever to it, has to split the signal out into 3rds - each driver getting about the same signal (or however the crossover works). Those two woofers are now only getting like 33W, and the tweeter only gets 33W of that signal. On the RB5 - the signal is split in two, so each driver gets 50W. In my opinion, I would rather have one driver getting more clean power, than two drivers splitting that same amount of power. Sure, you get a 3db bump in spl, but does that mean it is cleaner? This may not be an issue, but it works in my head! Hope this helps. Bryan

I know it says early October, but what does that mean? Does that mean they will be shipping in early October, or are they getting ready to ship now and be in stores in early October? I just want to know when I can actually go out and see one of these things in real life and listen to it. Also, are there any plans for independent reviews? Have you sent any subs out for review? When can we expect to see these reviews published and by whom? Thanks in advance, Bryan

Hey Brian - for the record I haven't listened to the RB-3s. I wanted to make sure that was clear, and that I was basing my opinion based purely on the specs. I agree with UP, I don't think that I could personally tell the difference either with a good sub. Not until you got into some really high SPL's, or were doing some ultra-critical listening (but who does that - I want to just enjoy it!) But even then I don't know. When I bought my RB-5s, the RB-3s weren't out yet. If they were out, I may have bought those. I was in the market for a bookshelf (space limitations), not a floor standing speaker, so the RF-3s were out of the running right off the bat. One other reason I prefer the RB-5s is because they use the exact same horn as the RC-3. That way they are tonally matched. Now the difference is probably inaudible, but I am anal! One other reason to get the RB-3 over the RF-3 is you will most likely be wasting the extra bass of the towers by setting them to small. So why pay extra for that? Let us know what you decide! Bryan

JT - isn't it so true about long conference calls? I got a good chuckle out of that one. Brian, I currently have the RB-5s, and my father-in-law has the RF-3s. We both have the RC-3 center channel. He has a Yamaha RXV-1000, I have a Denon 3802 (had the 3801, but swapped it for a 3802). I personally like the RB-5s - because I can put them on speaker stands, and get them to the correct height, and toe them in exactly like I need to for the mids and highs. I also think it is easier for Klipsch to make a sturdier cabinet on a smaller bookshelf then on a larger tower. Don't get we wrong, the RF-3s are well built, and sound great. You can't go wrong with either of them. The RB-3s, on the other hand, won't keep up. They use a single 6 1/2" woofer, and a smaller tractrix horn tweeter. They won't sound bad either (I just love that Klipsch Reference sound), but they won't pump it out like the RB-5 or RF-3 will. If you are looking more for a punchy, louder speaker, then the RF-3 is the way to go. Since it uses two 8" woofers, it will put out more bass than the RB-5. However, if you are going to use a sub and set them as small, then this may not be as big as a factor. I have seen reviews of the RB-5, and the measurements they took showed it as a very accurate speaker - which is more my bag, baby. They even use the RB-5 as monitors in some sound studios. Pretty impressive for a consumer bookshelf speaker. It all comes down to what your priority is. If you want higher SPL and punch, I would think that the RF-3 would be what you want. If you want a little more laid back and accurate, the RB-5 might be the ticket. However, both are great speakers, and you can't go wrong with either. Good luck! ------------------ Thanks, Bryan "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi 60" RPTV (VS60603) Denon AVR 3802 RCVR Denon DVM 1800 DVD JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Klipsch KSW12 - Sub (hopefully an RSW12 whenever they come out!) Monster Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

OK - now that the RSW subs are out, I am going ask a question and hope some of the knowledgable people here can answer it. I am building a media niche for my home theater system. I will have a niche on the floor for my sub. It will have a wall on each side, behind and above it. The front will be open (covered with a grill cloth material). The dimensions will be 20" X 20" X 28" (H x W x D). So if I put an RSW 12 in there, it will have about 4 inches around it, plus about 5 inches behind it. What will this do to the sound? Will putting a sub in an enclosure like this compress the bass - kind of like putting a port too close to the wall? Will it make it boomy and one noteish? Will it help extend the frequency response? What good things or bad things will it do, and how bad will they be? I am just trying to figure out what happens when you put a sub like the RSW 12 into a cut out like this. My local stereo shop here has a whole bunch of these media niches with subs in enclosures like this, and it sounds pretty good. But I don't know if it could sound better in their environment if the sub was somewhere else. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bryan I want to clarify what I mean by media niche. It will be built out of drywall, and studs (either 2 X 4 or steel for exact dimensions). This is not a furniture type armoire - it is more of a built-in-to-the-wall media niche that looks like it is part of the house. So it will be drywalled, textured, and painted to match the rest of the house. This message has been edited by bacevedo on 09-21-2001 at 10:27 AM

OK - now that the RSW subs are out, I am going to revive this question and hope some of the knowledgable people here can answer it. I will have a niche on the floor for my sub. It will have a wall on each side, behind and above it. The front will be open (covered with a grill cloth material). The dimensions will be 20" X 20" X 28" (H x W x D). So if I put an RSW 12 in there, it will have about 4 inches around it, plus about 5 inches behind it. What will this do to the sound? Will putting a sub in an enclosure like this compress the bass - kind of like putting a port too close to the wall? Will it make it boomy and one noteish? Will it help extend the frequency response? What good things or bad things will it do, and how bad will they be? I am just trying to figure out what happens when you put a sub like the RSW 12 into a cut out like this. My local stereo shop here has a whole bunch of these media niches with subs in enclosures like this, and it sounds pretty good. But I don't know if it could sound better in their environment if the sub was somewhere else. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bryan

Now the hardest part is waiting for them to come to my local shop (Early October?)! I think I will probably end up with the RSW12, but of course that means that I want it NOW! Oh well, they say patiences is a virtue - however whoever said that must have never wanted anything! Is Tom Nousaine going to get some of these for review? I hope you send him all 3 at one point, so we know how each one stacks up - it won't do me any good if the only review is of the 15, 'cause I want to know what the 10 and 12 can do, too. What happens on these subs when they get into the 'teens? If I get some bass at 16 Hz, will the 12 just roll it off gracefully? It won't bottom out will it? Thanks, Bryan