bacevedo

Bumping so we don't get lost in the fray.

Thanks Amy! I am not buying for a few more weeks anyway, so it won't hurt to wait for their reply. Bryan

So Klipsch employees - can you comment on any of this? I think I have decided to go with the in-celing speakers. I went to a local store here and listened to both the in-wall and in-ceilings, and for some reason, the in-ceilings actually sounded better to me. I think this may have been because the in-walls were wired out of phase, but even ignoring that, the in-celings seemed to have more midrange punch to them, which I liked, because it made the vocals very clear. Maybe the smaller horn in them was making them brighter and I liked that - who knows. Also, the sales guy said that technically, the in-walls may have better sound, but they would probably sound worse once mounted in the ceiling, since they aren't designed for that. So for now, I think I am going with the R5800C in-ceiling speakers. Bryan

My post may have sounded a little harsh, but I wasn't meaning it that way. I was just meaning that I wanted Klipsch themselves to participate in the thread so I could hear it straight from the horses mouth. I don't want this thread to get bumped off the first page, so I need to reply to it every few days to keep it up! Bryan

Can anyone from Klipsch answer my questions? Thanks, Bryan

There is a press release for the CEDIA EXPO 2004 that talks about several new in-ceiling and in-wall speakers. They talk about some new 8000 and 7000 series speakers. They have the high power and controlled dispersion technology speakers. I haven't seen anything else on the website for these. When are these going to be released? Any idea what the price points would be? I really like the idea CDT8000 series. Being able to direct the sound for both the woofer and the tweeter sound great, like Speakercraft currently sells. However, I have reservations about going with round in-celing speakers that are basically co-axial speakers (see below). Also, on the R-5800 series - what is the sound quality difference between the in-wall version and the in-ceiling version (R-5800-W vs R-5800-C)? I see that they have the same sensitivity, but the frequency response of the in-wall is better than the in-ceiling. (EDIT: There is inconsitency on the website. The specs say that the in-celings have a response down to 60Hz, but the cut sheet says it is down to 44Hz. The specs also say that the sensitivity is 94db, but the cut sheet says 95 db. Which is correct?) That tells me that there most likely will be a difference in sound quality. Do the tractix horns on the in-walls only pivot left and right or do they pivot up and down as well? Also, how does the crossover point of 2300Hz for the in-ceiling affect the sound quality vs 2600Hz for the in-wall? All of my speakers will be in the ceiling, and I am leaning towards putting the R-5800-W speakers up there, as I still think that having two independent drivers will sound better than having the tweeter on a pole sticking out from the woofer. I think there have to be compromises in the woofer when the tweeter sticks out from it and the difference in frequency response between the two speakers seem to confirm that. However, the ability to aim the tweeter in any direction on the round in-ceiling is a plus. To help in knowing my background, I am building a new house that doesn't have anywhere to put front speakers, either tower or bookshelf. I had RB5, RC3 for my front speakers at my last two houses, and I loved them. But in the new house, there is a fireplace with a built in niche for the TV next to it, and then on each side there is a window and then a wall. So there really wasn't a way to put speakers up front, AND look nice (which does matter to me as well as my wife). So I decided to sell my RB5, RC3 and SB1 speakers and go all in the ceiling. How much of a sound difference is there between the RB5 and the R-5800-W and the R-5800-C? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bryan

Would you happen to have an RCA DirecTV DBS receiver? You said it was only when using the dbs, so I am not sure which sat receiver you have. I have had two RCA sat receivers have issues with the RCA connectors on the back. They don't make a good connection and you have to wiggle the RCA cable to get sound out of it - interestingly I think it was the left channel that I had issues with as well. I wouldn't be surprised if you are having the same issue. Bryan

Yes Boa - the channel level match is really what is important. But as a side note, with the Denon calibrated correctly to 75 db with internal tones at a volume setting of 0, then EVERY DVD you watch at that level will be at reference level. All DVD's are mastered to the reference level. But that doesn't mean the DVD will be the same volume, because they can mix it intentionally to be soft, loud, etc. Also, reference level means nothing outside of DVD's as you pointed out. We are more worried about our channel levels being matched. TV shows are all mastered to whatever they want, and we have no idea what levels those are, so we can't calibrate to their levels. Bryan

I am glad I could help you guys out. Thanks boa - I guess I should say my post relates to Denon receivers. Kind of funny how a "lowly" receiver does it better than a "high end" pre/pro. I know that the B&K is one heck of a device, but it seems weird that they didn't get that right. Zandern - you will have fun being married! You do have to sacrifice your financial freedom, but believe me, I would rather have a wife than financial freedom! What you have to do is just warm her up to the idea. Just drop a few hints, and slowly mention it in conversations. Then it won't be a "What! You need to spend $1k on a subwoofer? Where did that come from?". Since you have been building up, it helps with sticker shock! I would fully recommend an SPL Meter. You will be shocked at how far off your levels are. You will perceive the different sonic signatures of the speakers and room, as different levels, when in reality they are not. The SPL meter just sets the SPL, so it will be correct. Bryan

Let's see if I can shed some light on this. With current digital receivers, the volume display, is a reference to a common point. What do I mean by this? On the Denon 3802, the volume is displayed as DB's below a maximum output at 0 db attenuation. This is also used to match how a Dolby Digital DVD is mastered. When a DVD is mastered, its full potential volume is 105 db for the main channels. This is what people call reference level. So, what we try and do in our theater is create a system that is capable of reference level. In order to do this, we have to calibrate the system, because the room, speakers, amps, etc. can effect this level. This is where the volume display comes in. How would you know if you were playing at reference level? You would know if you had a test tone that was supposed to play at a set SPL, and you had an SPL Meter to test it. But what if you wanted to play at that exact level later? In the old days, you would probably mentally remember where the volume control was set to, and just turn it to that mark. But now, you know that if you were at -20 on the volume control, and you were watching a DVD at a certain level, it would always play all DVDs at that same level when the volume is set to -20. What Denon has done, is make it easy for you to calibrate to reference level. Reference level on a Denon receiver is when the volume control is set to 0. However, with different speakers, the actual SPL could be different with the volume at 0. This is where the channel levels come into play. To accurately set the system up on a Denon receiver, you go into the test tones, and turn your receiver volume to 0 (most do this for you automatically). Then you calibrate, with an SPL meter, and set each channel to 75db (75 db is used, because they knew a 105db test tone would most likely fry your ears and speakers. The signal is recorded at -30db from 105 db, so it should produce a 75 db signal at reference level volume setting). With my Klipsch speakers, I have channel levels of -4, -3, etc. You can also do this by setting your volume level to anything that you want, and adjusting your levels accordingly. For example, with my channel level setting of -4, I could just as easily call -4 on the volume my reference mark. Then my channel level would be 0. However, you are just doing the calculations that the receiver is doing. Why not let the receiver do it? As a side note, there is absolutely no difference in power being delivered between the two. If they both create the same SPL level, they are putting out the same amount of power into the same speaker. You are not taking away any headroom from the amp, etc. With Avia, at the same volume setting, you should get an 85db signal, because they recorded the signal at -20db. From what I have read, you should always trust the internal tones on the receiver, because Dolby certifies that it is correct. This is from a post I read by Roger Dressler of Dolby Labs at HTF. Now, if I want to watch a movie at reference level, I just turn the volume to 0, and I know that I will be playing the movie exactly as it was intended. By the way - this is so freaking loud that I never watch a movie this loud. It is just way too uncomfortable. I generally watch a movie at about -20 to -15, so I am watching a movie 15 to 20 db below reference. So - this is why they display the volume as they do - to match what is really going on with the spl levels. It also gives you the ability to change your volume in 1 db increments. You have tremendous control of the volume. Also, note that you can adjust the channel levels differently for the different sound modes. And when you change your channel levels, it will adjust the max volume level (what zandern was referring to) so that the amp will not overdrive. And if your TV is too low, it is most likely the channel or the source. The receiver will put out the same amount of power at the same volume level, but if it is not getting a strong signal, it won't put out a loud level. I hope this helps, and I didn't babble too much! Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects This message has been edited by bacevedo on 05-06-2002 at 03:34 PM

Good post BobG - I couldn't agree with you more. People want BMW quality on a Honda budget. I think Klipsch makes great products for the price. If you want better build quality, then you better want to pay for it. Bryan

This guy seems to think the RF5 build quality is as good as the Hereseys. http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/klipschfr5/index.html

Thanks Kevin - that makes sense. I guess if you used an EQ to level out the peaks, then it would be good, otherwise I get what your saying - 97db at 20Hz isn't good if you have 115db everywhere else. However, does that mean that at lower volumes, 20 Hz will always be 17 db lower? That is what I don't get. If I am watching a movie at -20 below reference, will the bass still be that mis-matched, or is it only when you are going all out? Bryan

So what you're saying is that it really doesn't matter what it's maximum output is. It matters how it is in relation to the higher frequencies? I guess I don't understand what a true definition of Frequency response is vs. what maximum output and extension is. Bryan

I am not sure why I haven't seen this posted here yet. If it has, sorry, but I wanted to get the news out. I just received my current S&V, and they did a review of a full Klipsch reference setup (RF7 etc.) and the RSW 15 sub. In the lab, they said the RSW was one of the best measuring subs they have ever had. 97 db at 20 Hz, 112 db at 32 Hz, and 112 db average response from 25 - 62 Hz. So for anyone wondering, that RSW15 is a great sub. Also, I saw it at brandnamez.com for like $1400 or something. Not a bad price at all for that kind of performance. And the rest of the speakers got a great review as well. The reviewer was pretty impressed with their sound and dynamics. Bryan

Thanks - I guess I am just gonna have to get the SB1 then. I would prefer reference series to match the horn and copper cone, but for my surround speakers I don't think it will be that critical. It will still probably sound better than my current in-wall surrounds right now. Bryan

Yeah - thanks - I posted a few of these because I knew some people don't browse all of the different areas. I wanted to get opinions from the regulars in each area - however, there are those like you who browse the whole board! Thanks for the info in my other thread. Bryan

What I mean by ceiling mount, is that they would be hung from the ceiling, as my listening room wouldn't have side walls to mount to. So in essence, I would use a speaker mount (like an omnimount), coming down from the ceiling, and the speaker would be floating, toed in and down towards the listening position. I don't want in-ceiling speakers or in-wall speakers. These speakers would be several feet from the side walls, and therefore the port would have plenty of free space to let the bass come out. I don't need the wall reinforcement, as they would be set to small anyway, so the bass doesn't need to be reinforced by a wall. I did check the specs, but none of them say anything about a screw hole in the back, but I know the SB1 has them. My father-in-law and brother-in-law both use the SB1 like this, so I know that it works very well, and I like the sound. I am just trying to get a speaker that will match better to my RB5 mains. So I would rather go with an RB3 vs an SB1, 2 or 3. Thanks, Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

Does anyone know if the RB3 speakers have keyholes or screwholes on the back, so that you can use a wall mount to mount them to the ceiling or wall? If not, do the SB1, 2 or 3 have these as well? I am getting ready to move, and my RCW3 in walls are staying, so I will need new surrounds. I don't want to go the in-wall route again, so I am looking at getting some smaller bookshelf surrounds that will match my RB5 and RC3 front speakers. I will want to mount these speakers from the ceiling, so that I can have them out to the sides and slightly behind the listening position. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

Does anyone know if the RB3 speakers have keyholes or screwholes on the back, so that you can use a wall mount to mount them to the ceiling or wall? If not, do the SB1, 2 or 3 have these as well? I am getting ready to move, and my RCW3 in walls are staying, so I will need new surrounds. I don't want to go the in-wall route again, so I am looking at getting some smaller bookshelf surrounds that will match my RB5 and RC3 front speakers. I will want to mount these speakers from the ceiling, so that I can have them out to the sides and slightly behind the listening position. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

Does anyone know if the RB3 speakers have keyholes or screwholes on the back, so that you can use a wall mount to mount them to the ceiling or wall? If not, do the SB1, 2 or 3 have these as well? I am getting ready to move, and my RCW3 in walls are staying, so I will need new surrounds. I don't want to go the in-wall route again, so I am looking at getting some smaller bookshelf surrounds that will match my RB5 and RC3 front speakers. I will want to mount these speakers from the ceiling, so that I can have them out to the sides and slightly behind the listening position. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

Bob - thanks for that great post! It's nice to hear another side to it all, and I would be interested in seeing a different review of the RSW subs. I do agree, some of the tests seemed a little akward to me, and I questioned in another post why Klipsch's results and this reviews result's were so different. I do think the room had a big factor in all of this. Thanks for letting all sides be heard. Bryan

I think the leak was around the amp plate, but I could be mistaken. My guess is that Klipsch just fixed a whole bunch of these when they were making the new RSW subs. They have some of the same design principles (PR, high amp power) and maybe they used their new found knowledge (a.k.a. the guy who helped them design the RSW) to fix the pile up they had at headquarters. I have seen them in my local dealers, and all over the place on the net. These things didn't just fall off of a truck. Maybe Klipsch is hoping that people looking for the new RSW will 1) not know the difference and buy the LF-10, thinking that is the new Klipsch sub (because most consumers don't know model numbers like we do), or 2) go to look for an RSW and since not many places have them, ****** up an LF-10 instead at half the price. Seems like odd timing for it to be just coincidence. One thing is for sure, Klipsch is being pretty quiet about it (unusually quiet if you ask me), since several people have posted about it, and not one comment from the Klipsch crew. Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

I wouldn't be surprised if the RCA inputs are bad. You should have a lot more output from the RCA inputs. I had a KSW 12, and I know 2 people with the KSW 15, and none of them exhibited this behavior. We had them all hooked up through the RCA inputs only. Try to exchange it for a different one and see if you have the same problems. What receiver do you have? Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

Dude- not sure why the salesman wouldn't push the higher priced item, but the 3802 is in a different class. The 882 is not even close. The 3802 usually sells for $999 ($1199 originally) at authorized dealers. So $699 is an incredible price. I think the 882 may be the equivalent of the 2802 or 1802, but the 3802 is where Denon starts their high end line up. The 3802 has DDSC, a much bigger power supply, better remote, and the full 7 channels built in. I have this beast, and I love it, and I even paid close to full MSRP for it. GET THE 3802! Bryan ------------------ "... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater" Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV Denon AVR 3802 Receiver Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer JVC 3600U SVHS VCR RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner Klipsch RB5 - Mains Klipsch RC3 - Center Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects