anarchist

I am confused about this Adam and Eve thing. If a system is money based and the wealth produced is carrots, what do you have at the end of the day? Poop. Where is the wealth?

Not that I need them (given I have a restored/upgraded pair) but if I had the cash sitting around, I would jump on these myself. A few bucks and these would be killer given the NOS Treatment or OTS mods readily available. I love my Eico but nothing quite like a JM or NBS powering a set of Mark III's upgraded, or redesigned (VRD's). I remember a time when all anyone wanted (or needed) was a NBS and VRD's.

Survivor's series is doing Gen-X vs Millennials. The Millennials already needed saving and would have died if left to their own devices. In two weeks or so, the Millennials will be crying they are being oppressed and it isn't fair. Even the Millennials acknowledge they are deserving of the criticisms. Frankly, I have been somewhat impressed with the Millennials as I didn't think it possible they could survive an hour without a cell phone. Of course, listening to them actually have a conversation reminds you of why they need cell phones and all the grammar, speech, and text apps.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/09/the_explosive_history_of_lithium_ion_batteries.html

I remember that time quite well (early 2000's) and with great fondness, it was the time to be on the Klipsch forum and most of the good stuff was in 2-channel. The battles between Mark and Kelly were epic - insults flying everywhere couched in language that made you think. Craig learning to repair equipment from Mark and starting his hobby-based business that really got everyone into tube amps. We argued amps, topologies, repairs, tubes, tube manufacturers, and many threads were dedicated to just smacking Craig for his grammar and spelling - which improved over the course of time due to the Klipsch forum. Yes, on occasion those discussions also turned into a political, economical, or religious discussions, drew hundreds of responses, and were shutdown - most occurred outside of 2-channel but it was the personalities of 2-channel who frequently argued these topics as well. I was mostly silent. Ditto. There were several personalities that made you want to visit the forum everyday (regardless of topic) and most of them have been silenced. For me, the heyday of the forum has passed and those graphs tend to bear that out. But, hey, what do I know... I find Twitter and YouTube comments to be meaningless and bereft of any intelligence but there are millions of sheep following half-wits around offering up all manner of useless drivel.

I understand the sentiment, but Paul's babies have changed throughout history. Didn't Paul keep improving his speakers? So upgrades were still possible, yes? Didn't Klipsch release the Heresy III? The Cornwall III? So upgrades were still possible even then, yes? Now, I bought Klipsch after first hearing Klipschorns in 1980 or so. I own Klipschorns that have upgraded cross-overs - by Klipsch no less. As I said, Klipsch can take action, and you obviously decided on a solution, but I still haven't seen anyone define the problem. In any case, I don't peddle, so have at it. Now, personally, I would like to hear more about the Pro Line and understand what exactly I am listening to at the good theater I frequent. What's the difference between them and my Heresies, etc. Which speakers are being used to reproduce all the bass in that theater, etc.

You know, you make this too easy. I like that you can do research but it would be even better if you were able to digest the data. I stated that Harley-Davidson became the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. That is a fact. The fact that Honda overtook them in 1959 means less than zero. You haven't refuted my point, you have substantiated it. Furthermore, Harley-Davidson is still the number 1 manufacturer of motorcycles in America as I stated. Now, you read some data but can't understand the point. So let me make it simple. It matters not that Honda sold however many motocross bikes, atvs, scooters, etc. Harley doesn't sell dirt bikes, atvs, etc. Even you should know that comparing apples to oranges is fallacious. They sell bikes over 650CC and they destroy Honda in that segment. Here a simple fact: In 2014, Harley-Davidson's share of the US Market was 35% while Honda's was 15%. Prior to that disappointing year, Harley-Davidson was around 50% while Honda was still at, you guessed it, 15%. Hey, you were right about one thing, it isn't even close. Pretty simple, Counselor. I know, facts suck when you are on the wrong end of them. Then again, maybe I am wrong to look at the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and other data that disagrees with your mistaken beliefs. Now, because I find you humorous and challenged, please provide evidence of me providing this list you assert I provided here: "That doesn't even cover all the manufacturer sites you claimed don't have vendor policies." My statement, which I thought was simple enough for anyone to comprehend was " I reviewed some of the other forums I frequent with regard to audio, cars, tools, etc. that are hosted by the respective manufacturer. There was no ToS in sight, various forums encouraging modifications, upgrades, and pointing to vendors for specific items." Hmm. My statement and your claim appear to be different. I understand some people like to manufacture or misconstrue someone's statements so that it is easy to refute them, but attributing claims to me that I didn't make and then proclaiming yourself victorious in your argument against my position is, well, just silly and less than I would expect from a high school debate team. But keep on, I find your floundering entertaining.

I don't. Many consumers don't want something from the used market. They walk into Best Buy, buy something, and are done. People who come here are generally enthusiasts who aren't satisfied with off the shelf products, want something more, and/or are looking for more value. If they buy used Klipsch, they are converts and Klipsch gains a new advocate - that doesn't hurt Klipsch, it benefits Klipsch. Those people selling that old stuff buy new stuff. if Klipsch maintained parts for all those speakers or had a limited supply of 'universal' upgrades, Klipsch would benefit more in terms of sales. The vendors here supplying cross-overs, amps, or whatever else keep Klipsch speakers out of the trash bin and generate additional Klipsch advocates. It is a win-win all around. That is the Harley-Davidson lesson - again. Now dtel's wife said something in a later post about siccing Roy on the snake-oil salesmen. In my mind, that is those guys selling cable bridges, magic magnets, speaker wire that has been treated with coke and then deep frozen and such. I am all for watching Roy publicly ridicule and destroy such folks whether they are forum members or not, but he will probably violate the 'no-insult' limits (and I will cheer him on.)

If you are a lawyer, you know you should be more careful with your words. 1) Harley-Davidson did become the worlds largest motorcycle manufacturer - doing exactly what I said. 2) Harley-Davidson currently owns 55% of the US market with dozens of other competitors owning the other 45%. Claiming I made up facts is simply lazy and a losing argument; particularly when the facts (and history) are evident and available. 3) I never claimed there wasn't a problem; YOU brought up there was a problem using your cliche to besmirch anyone with a different perspective. I simply asked what is the problem since you had yet to state one. You obviously disagree with my opinions, but have yet to articulate a coherent argument against Harley-Davidson's approach, argue there is a problem you can't define, and resort to specious claims regarding the validity of my statements. 4) You state there is "clearly a problem" but then admit the problem may be identifying a problem. 5) You then specify you are going to educate yourself to see where there might be a problem after insisting there is a problem. A squirrel in search of a nut will eventually find one. Your whole approach reminds me of something some dude once said, "if there were no problems at all... [some] would have to invent problems in order to provide themselves with an excuse for making a fuss."

Cliches are rather simple. There first needs to be a problem before you can create a solution. I haven't seen the definition of a problem yet. I have seen someone take umbrage over semantics. I have seen that some propose actions that are certain to alienate the community, and, in fact, already have. And to what purpose? As I said, Klipsch, or in this case Roy, is free to have an opinion on what he wants the forum to be and can take whatever actions he deems necessary. The Klipsch community itself will decide whether it was a good idea or not. My participation here is largely based on the relationships I have established with people over the last 15 years. During that time I acquired many Klipsch speakers, repaired some speakers, purchased parts for speakers, documented amp upgrades and builds I had performed, and observed as others got deeper in this hobby and purchased Jubilee's and more. Often, I came to discuss non-audio issues and frequently found myself reading threads on new Klipsch offerings or new offerings by other members that enhanced the Klipsch experience. Really, looking back at all that has happened on this forum, and how much money has been spent... sorry, I forgot, whats the problem Klipsch is trying to solve? As far as Harley Davidson, facts are facts. HD is the leading motorcycle manufacturer in the US market owning a 55% share of the US market and a loyal fanbase that companies pay dearly to acquire. They have taken exactly the opposite approach to the one being proposed here. As an aside, I don't see these concerns on the PCA forums or the Polk Audio forums. Have to run. My wife thinks it is ridiculous I spend so much time on a speaker forum and obsess over audio stuff. Quick PS: I read above somewhere that Roy is now in charge of the Pro Audio line. When I spoke to Roy last is was all about the Jubilee. In any case, went to a movie tonight at the local theater. Very disappointing audio wise and I don't what garbage is there (my home theater blows it away.) Largely, we have shunned this theater for the last year because we discovered a theater 30 miles or so away that has just incredible audio. After the second movie there, I had to look and was thrilled when I saw they were Klipsch Pro speakers - about the size of a Heresy. 6 of them would be nice in my home theater. I don't know what subs they are using but the sound is just freaking awesome. Well done, Roy, well done.

A final thought. One would have to be delusional to think there is going to be a great influx of young (or old) females joining this forum and sticking around: (1) They generally don't care about audio to that degree, (2) they generally don't care to open up speakers and 'tinker' with them, and (3) they want to turn it on and enjoy it not talk about it endlessly. For Pete's sake, go to the vacuum cleaner forum and you will find it is 95% males (talking about modding their vacuums by the way). Don't ask. One would have to be delusional to think there is going to be a great influx of young males joining this forum and sticking around: (1) They listen to digital audio so they generally can't tell the difference between a $10K speaker and a boom box in their trunk, (2) they don't have the necessary levels of disposable income, and (3) they have been raised in a commodity based society where everything is disposable. Many don't have the attention span to appreciate listening to a set of high-end speakers. If Klipsch wants to appeal to these consumers, you may as well eliminate your engineering team, sign a few OEM deals with the Chinese and target the $199 system buyer and/or rely on those kids' parents to buy the system after lots of whining from their kid living in the basement. You don't need a Klipsch forum, you need a Twitter account and some no-talent celebrities with lots of followers to mention your products. I can get you started. "Sitting at the pool listening to my new Klipsch outdoor speakers" - include obligatory bikini shot. "Partied in Malibu and listened to Kanye on some killer Klipsch speakers." - include obligatory drunk dancing shot.

Um, I think I covered this under my analogy to HD which apparently has not been understood by several here. I mean, for Pete's sake, Harley-Davidson allowed - encouraged - modders to take their products, by parts from them, modify the bikes and then resell them in dealerships. They not only sold more parts, they gained a greater following and actually improved and integrated some of those mods into their own products. Here there is an uproar if someone says they upgraded their Klipsch speakers from 1979 with a new cross-over - as if there hasn't ever been a technological improvement. Regarding the graphs - I looked and saw that forum membership and interest waned when Amy left and picked up when Craig and Dean started arguing with each other again. The data may speak to you differently. Lastly, I don't think I have ever read a Klipsch product sucked on this forum. Some complaints about headphones maybe. But more often that not, it is someone taking a great speaker and employing a cost no object approach to improving something with it - even if only in their head.

Interestingly enough, I reviewed some of the other forums I frequent with regard to audio, cars, tools, etc. that are hosted by the respective manufacturer. There was no ToS in sight, various forums encouraging modifications, upgrades, and pointing to vendors for specific items. In short, they are taking the exact opposite approach some on here are proposing Klipsch should take. It is Klipsch's forum, they may do as they please, however, this forum was built - not by Klipsch and its contributions - but by an almost cult following of Klipsch loyalists that Klipsch appears eager to provoke. I find it interesting that Klipsch ignores the lessons of Harley Davidson; there were those that advocated Harley put a stop to all those 'vendors', 'upgraders', and 'tinkerers.' If HD had listened, well, they would just be a footnote in the history books. Instead, the Davidson's saw the short-sightedness of that approach and instead embraced those 'upgraders' and 'resellers' making HD the largest motorcycle company in the world with a rabidly loyal following. Some on here might do well to watch Discovery's mini-series on HD.

I agree. I love mine. I keep thinking about selling it and then think about missing it.

Some of these lyrics really make you question the listener's grasp on reality.