HornEd

Good morning m00n First, heres a brief answer to your four questions. 1. It is true that RS-7s give you greater coverage at the expense of clarity and the honest sound that the DVD audio engineers anticipated. Properly hung center channel speakers will cover your sweet spot without the forced overkill on every sound that comes out of the side speakers. 2. That assumption would get a big yellow BS button from the late Paul W. Klipsch. .WDST diffuses sound to the point that your ears are flooded. The acuity of things approaching or fading away comes from the direct radiator part of a WDST speaker and across the full range of a monopole speaker. 3. You would lose nothing you would want to keep! The only effect you lose is the tricked-up illusion that you are immersed in sound all the time. Modern DVDs are engineered to flood any or all six discreet channels to create that immersed feeling any time it is appropriate and provide full range directionality as it is appropriate to the story line. 4. My opening paragraph should ease your mind about my working in a narrow listening space. It is easy for me to keep in mind that your room is only 10.5 feet wide because creating a quality sound system in a motorhome that is only 8 feet wide and 30 feet long is an even greater challenge because there are cabinets, bathroom and closets that further impede the sound. It was in this narrow space that I tried a pair of Klipsch WDST (which I bought from cluless) after gaining inspiration from the narrow minded posts of t2k. After trying a whole lot of configurations, I found that the WDST speakers worked best when set up as Avman has his KSP-S6s so one side of the bipole is headed directly toward the sweet spot and the other end is bouncing off the middle of the rear wall of the main bedroom area. The main listening area has center speakers mounted horizontally on both sides underneath the overhead cabinets. The driver and passenger seat area has a pull down double bed above it. The left main, center main, right main are mounted on the bottom of that deck which holds the overhead projector screen when the motorhome is parked. But, frankly, m00n, I think this motorhome treatment is far more severe than what is called for in your theater. On this thread, t2k wrote The WDST's mimic multiple monopole surrounds to give a diffuse surround effect. And, with all due respect to Keith, that simply isnt true. Monopoles send a direct wave to your ears and secondary waves that have bounced off the walls (etc.) arrive a fraction of a second later this provides both first hand timbre info and locates the sound by comparing the direct wave with the delayed reflections. WDST provides only delayed reflections for sounds above about 2 kHz. The original mission of the bipole, dipole, tripole family is to confuse the ear so that the weakness of the ProLogic era surround channels and home acoustic defects would not be as noticeable to the listener. It was a plug n play solution for an audio era that has come and, mercifully, gone as most new DVDs and multi-channel music recordings take full advantage of the full range discrete channels in 5.1 and 6.1 recordings. There are no 7.1 recordings, per se. 7.1 is created by the receiver splitting the rear channel into two identical rear feeds. That helps if you have a very wide room by putting two speakers with identical sound along the rear wall. With only ten feet to cover, m00n, putting two speakers on your rear wall may even be disadvantageous. In your situation, I would mount RC-7s horizontally across from each other and even with the middle row of your seating arrangement. Since you are using a middle seating strategy with side aisles, the double woofers on each side should create an angle of incidence that easily covers your sweet spot. I would then mount a third RC-7 on the back wall as your rear speaker. I would buy an additional RF-7 and mount it horizontally over your screen and angle it down so that the center of the speaker is aimed at the heads of the people in the second row. Your screen would have to be mounted a bit lower in this case. A bottom mounted center speaker with three rows of seating generally loses the high end to the second and third rows. High mounting allows fewer front row fat heads from obstructing the sound. But, if everyone in the front row is sufficiently narrow minded a bottom mounting may be overcome. (Hmmm, I hope you see a little humor there!) The ambiance supposedly created by making all side surround speakers reach your ears by reflecting off room surfaces is no longer necessary. If the movie calls for the music or explosive action to engulf you in sound, the sound mixer will send the appropriate sound to your rear array appropriately. You will get the entire ambience he intended and yet when isolated sounds like crickets, surprise voices or such need to be crisp and direct they will be with monopoles and they will be overly diffuse with WDST at least IMHO. Because of its existing speaker configuration, I believe that laying an RF-7 on its side with the midrange horn in the center point of the room, you will get a perfect center channel effect. The only reason to modify the motor board is so the cabinet looks centered in your room. Since upwards of 75% of the total sound on your DVD will come through the center channel thats where your best speaker should be. Having three RF-7s in your front array will be the best improvement you can make for your home theater bar none! Again, if your set of conditions were mine, I would mount a pair of SVS Ultras in the rear corner of your theater. That would give you a deep diving subwoofer that should cover the entire spectrum of bass available on a Dolby Digital DVD (121.5 dB at 20 Hz). It sounds like an ear splitter, but actually those high volume subwoofer blasts last for less than a second in the movies. It doesnt hurt your ears and adds a truck load of realism to the everyday crash, bam, booms of modern DVDs. Sadly, your stacked Klipsch subs wont reach that ideal. I know because I tried them too. It would seem that you could try out the surround potential of RC-7s by temporarily hooking the two you have up to the existing side surround locations. Granted they will sound differently but they will have far clearer speech (due to the tapered array) and will provide ample ambience. Test them by listening through an entire movie and not just a short snippet. It takes time for your brain to adjust to the inherent quality of monopole surrounds after being inundated with Bose-effect reflection based surrounds. Well, m00n, thats my quickie version. Maybe I will get time to email you some additional considerations. Enjoy your hard work in any event. -HornEd

Well, fini, now that you mention it... SPANKERS! I thought this was a family friendly Forum... and then sending all the Elvis impersonators into a Havana commune for a Spankers Convention! Well, I just didn't think you were that kind of guy... but Clipped & Shorn... hmm, was it truly HIS van? HornEd PS: Does he still live in the round house where a Klipschorn cant be cornered?

Wheelman... there are no hard feelings here. I too have been around the block and back in the 50 years since I bought my first Klipschorn. My son and I designed and built a custom 7.1 system in a 60 seat theater that was originally designed and built for Eastman Kodak... and then became my showroom in the Dallas InfoMart BEFORE ProLogic was invented and THX was unknown out of Marin Co., California. I have owned venues with indoor and outdoor pro sound systems... in fact I own one now. Some pretty weird configurations have come out of my head... so, man, there is no hassle from here as to what you like in your space. To me, dipoles just tell fuzzy audio lies... but, hey, people dig what people dig... and truth isn't always popular. At least bipoles can be crisp when they mess with your mind. Tripoles at least let some small cone truth hit your ears below about 2kHz... and WDST are among the best picks of this audio litter. Granted, I have the luxury of building rooms to suit my speaker experimentations... and I tend to share my experiences with others... and they share with me. It's meant to be a thought provoking thing... not a bragging thing. I have had hundreds of interactions with all kinds of Klipsch oriented people from all walks of life. And I know I can learn something from every one of them. My bias toward six identical monopoles and an adequate subwoofer array comes from building home theaters that faithfully reproduce the sounds intended by the audio engineers that mix modern DVDs, multi-channel and stereo music. I set up systems with laser pointers and multi-dimensional targets, and my faithful SPL meter. In my search for an audio system that will recreate the intended ambiance, I have taken apart speakers and re-engineered them to better fit the potential to be unlocked in a modern DVD. There are folks all over the world that have rebuilt their home theaters using my acoustic approaches with a wide variety of speaker types and brands. So far, not one has said that my approach made their system worse! I am open to talk seriously about audio with just about anyone except those who insist that their way is the only way. Frankly, I have never found a better way than the way I am currently building them but that doesnt mean that your system couldnt beat my system all to hell and back. As many as 40-50 people at a time have sampled the all monopole sound in my eight Klipsch Legend Theater over the last few years have the consensus opinion that this theater that was designed before Paul Klipsch passed is better than any commercial theater system in the San Francisco Bay Area. As yet, I have only allowed close audio friends into my Klipschorn/Heritage experiments. I am a free spirit and I dont like to be stuffed in a phony stereotype and thats why t2k bugs me. I started out on this Forum with great respect for Keith but somewhere along the line (I really dont know where) he took exception to the extensions of the audio theories of Paul Klipsch and Floyd Toole and dogged nearly every post to take personal potshots at my character and heritage. So, now when he appears in all his bloated self righteous ignorance I just cant seem to resist building a verbal pin to get him to show what he is made of. I guess finding just one angry curmudgeon in over 2,500 posts is not perfect but then again I never claimed I was. -HornEd

Now come on, BBB, one guy does it with a monopole... up front and personal... with all the ambience the audio engineer mixed in. The other guy does it all over the walls, ceiling, furniture, lampshade, hound dog, and m00nshine jug... 'til the secondhand thumps, bumps and grinds jump your audio bones... hammer, stirrup & anvil beating on your inner ear until a saxophone solo sounds like the anvil chorus in an echo chamber. Hmmm, there ought to be a twelve step program for unnatural sax. So you see, one tee shirt just has a Khorn and a smiling significant other caught up in the rapture of PWK... The other tee shirt has the waves bouncing round the hem... tickling the arm pits... bouncing off the hem... tumbling over the pecs... then getting caught up in the navel intelligence that suggests tripoles know their bass from their bellows... at least better than audio engineers that mixed the original cut. Now, BBB, of all the creative types on this Forum, I'm betting you can come up with a pic that represents monopole's symphonic naturalness... as compared with the dipole's out-of-phase cacophony... caca phony... caw caw faux knee... The days when audio engineers mixed DVD's for sound sprayers are mercifully fading away... and with 5.1 (or more), audio mixers can paint any mixture of ambience and directional sound as the script requires... and send them to one, two, three, four, five or more monopoles with the majority of the effect coming from speakers placed the way the sound mixer anticipated. Bipoles, dipoles and tripoles force their scattered bias on every sound that comes through them. It's like potatoes... some like 'em clean, crisp and served fresh ... and some like them half-baked, mashed and thrown against the wall before they're consumed. -HornEd

I'm with Q-man, fini... shape up those corners so you can sound off like you've got a real pair! -HornEd It sure is good to see so many of us longer term Forum folk opting for vintage Klipschorns... and, fini, on this day which would have been PWK's hundredth birthday, how can you play uncornered horns? Which brings up the 1948 Klipschorn patent question of, "Why did the Klipschorn cross the road?"

On May 3, 2004 I will celebrate my 50th year since I bought my first Klipschorn, a major expendature for me in those days. I still enjoy the same configuration as PWK had at home when he died... a pair of Khorns with a Belle in the middle. Paul Wilbur Klipsch was more than an innovative loudspeaker engineer... as all can discover by reading his biography. But even that whole book cannot contain all the joy and bs repellant that this one man brought to Hope (AR) and spread across the world. May we extend all our best to Ms. Valerie. -HornEd

Klipschorns and Weebles wobble but they don't fall down! Actually, fini, all the Forum is anxious to hear what your "chic chick" thinks of the vintage Klipsch "corner sound coops" you liberated from years of the silent treatment. It would also be illuminating if you could reveal the first words of your not so wee ones about the new fully loaded horns. And, did you get a photo of C&S doing his Arnold impression of moving Khorns into the Governor's mansion? Will you be building extra stout "false walls" and sliding in a center speaker a la PWK? =HornEda

Welcome! I'm with yromj... identical speakers all the way with the addition of an adequate sub array! The state of the art is only six discrete channels (in 7.1 the two rear channels actually share one discrete signal). For stereo music, the bulk of the sound goes to the left and right speakers (unless you opt for three-channel stereo favored by Paul Klipsch and invented at Bell Labs). Multi-channel music is getting better IMHO. And, DVD's push upwards of 75% of the total sound through the front center speaker... so it should at least be equal to the best speakers in the system. Six or seven identical speakers allow the closest timbre-match... so the voice of each speaker does not distort the sound of a helicopter flying circles around your listening position. The other speaker configurations you mention would has a "Doppler shift" effect as sound transferred from one speaker to the next. Of course, an SPL meter (like Radio Shack's) and a set-up disk (like Avia's) is critical to getting the most and best sound from your rig. =HornEd

Hey, fini, quit arm wrestling and hook up those beauties for a better WAF rating! Oh, yeah, and does C&S do is dit dah bit in a syncopated bongo beat? C&S has the right idea... K-hornswaggle Pleasantville's elite and raise the Klipsch Heritage Consciousness of the masses. While they say, "let them eat cake" we'll say "stick a Bo$e in your ear and try to ignite a timbre-match!" =HornEd PS: All you've got to do is read 1,237 more books and you can retire the bookshelves and begin to put your K-horns in the corners!

Oh yeah Avman wasnt that the one about taking a deHornEd bipolar steer to a nuclear fission hole? Actually, Avman, I do recall that your use of the KSP-S6's allows your ears to get the first shot from one side... and the echo from the ones firing against the back wall. As I wrote when you mounted them in your splendoriffic home cinema, I think that's the smartest use of that speaker I have ever seen... you have effective ambience without sacrificing directionality and timbre-matching. =HornEd PS: Tripod... most people just try to get me to see both sides of an issue... but you bring in a third dimension. Are you sure your favorite flavor isn't macaroni, cheese and sage? While trying to find a corner (without a Klipschorn) to stand in I reflected, Why did the monopole cross the road?

I read you loud and clear, tripod... is that "Do it with a monopole" written on the shirt of your avatar flasher? I am going to write on the blackboard, "Be kind to dumb animals and t2k today!" all during recess. It's positive, separates the sheep from the goat and may even earn me a lead star in the tripod reformatory. At least I didn't have to use "$$" to cover up my "hole"-hearted vulgarities. And in the different flavors department: tripod, anyone who favors "macaroni & cheese" flavored ice cream has got to be a step ahead in this free spirited Forum. And m00n, I thought you got over that "breeding" urge when you fell off the folding ladder! So I'll just ask, "Why did the KSP-S6 cross the road?" and wait for the answer like a good boy. -HornEd

No, fini, she is trying to "complete" with me! And Klipschorns are an expressway to my heart! -HornEd PS: Don't tell your mother-in-law, because Italian cuisine is still the paisano pathway to my heart. PPS: t2k says he has a line on some KSP-S6's to "fix" the sound of your new Khorns. Hmm, someone did something like that to my tomcat once... and he never again reached first bass! PPPS: So, how long can C&S wait before he parks his dit, di, di, dah in the corner and replaces his ersatz towers with the real thing?

"Wholly Horns, Batman, the fini is going to do it!" Can't wait for the photos... or better yet... the definitive Clipped & Shorn frontline report! And, yes, as the "owner" of a genuine Klipschorn loving wife" you are to be honored... but how is it you "bought" two kiddos before treating that lovely lady of yours to classic Khorns? No matter... enjoy! -HornEd PS: Imagine my surprise and joy when my fiancé whipped out her checkbook upon first sight of the Klipschorns and Belle she elected to buy for our new audio/video room. Ah, yes, fini, life is good!

Nothing is more important to great HT than a center speaker that matches your left and right fronts. Since upwards of 75% of the total sound on modern DVD's, there is no way that a phantom channel can rival a proper center speaker. But, make no mistake, a phantom channel IS better than a wimpy center... even if it is a scaled down center designed to go with your left and right mains. Some people have split speakers to put the bass bin on the floor where it gains strength... and the tweeters and midrange in horizontal custom enclosures (mounted at a downward angle) above the screen. Making a horizontal center that is angled up from the floor works best when there is only a single row of movie seating. I have been using the laser pointer trick since before lasers were cheap. I have also used a Styrofoam head mounted at my usual "head in the sweet spot" location. Oh, yeah, and 121 Hz sound at 20 Hz does wonders for HT as well. -HornEd

Yum, as a collector of cool Klipsch flavors in Heritage, Legend, Synergy, and Reference in monopole AND WDST flavors... I am all for the "scoops" reflected by Forum members. In the thousands of posts I have made on this Forum, hundreds have been of the "m00n pie peace" variety... and only a relative handful have been in retaliation to t2k's vulgar obsession. Yep, I should resist pouring yellow "soup" and "B" & "S" alphabet soup letters on Keith's sage scoops... and putting the cone on his head... but it does provide a somewhat perverse pleasure. -HornEd PS: Thanks Keith, for all the amusement you have given to so many on this Forum. I only hope m00n finds someone like you to amuse him when he's collecting his Social Security check.

Wow, I hope someone from the Forum can snag those at that price. I know if they were in the San Francisco Bay Area they would likely already be mine! That's a vintage year for Khorns in my Heritage experience. -HornEd

You know, Keith, I always thought your previous Rolltide note indicated that you were a graduate of Bama and that your trash talk was the exuberance of youth. But I am now convinced that either I have a much greater opinion of the University of Alabama that it deserves... or you are just painfully unaware of anything but sales promos. Can anyone be that dense? And, since you have been around for half-a-century, I cannot attribute your foul mouth to youth. If you do not want to be exposed for the ignoramus you are, then don't bother putting my posts in your trash-minded, misinformed drivel. If you and Wheelman dig having your ears inundated with reflected glory rather than getting the real thing... have at it. Fortunately, there are quite a few of us on this Forum that respect things like timbre-matching and appropriate localization as intended by the sound mixers on DVD's, etc. If you persist in playing the fool, than I shall just formulate a standard "Keith Myth Disclaimer" and attach it as a PS to all of my posts that contain audio engineering considerations. It is only fair to the newbies that may take your drivel as serious stuff. Monopoles get aimed at listeners... bipoles, dipoles, and for the most part, tripoles away from the listener so that the listener only gets second hand sound bounced off whatever comic books you have framed on your walls. Have a nice day in your second hand sound barn! -HornEd PS: Wheelman, if you like what your doing to your ears and have found my way to be unacceptable in your listening environment... go for it!

Avman, I nearly bought four pro versions of LaScalas last year for an outdoor stage. In the pecking order of those bygone days, the LaScalas were gone before I got to them. Oddly enough, it turns out they were sold by the same fellow I just bought the Klipschorns and Belle from. The reason he got rid of the LaScalas was that his listening environment just wasn't large enough to handle four LaScalas for HT. He acquired the Klipschorns and Belle to try to shoehorn them into his fully loaded space. It didn't work, hence my opportunity to pick them up for my rear array. I like the fully-horn loaded effect for music... but probably prefer the KLF-30 punch and quickness (particularly since I limit the woofers to 85Hz and above) they bring to HT. IMHO, Heritage loudspeakers generally work better when there is lots of room and particularly favorable acoustics. My vote would be a KLF center worthy of your 30's. -HornEd PS: You really have a great HT... you should post photos of it more often as an incentive to newbies.

I'd like to parrot what paul said. The "punishment" on eBay seems to be the seller can say your a "@#$%& scalawag" next to your handle... but you get to keep your hard earned $140 instead of having to eat that genuine Ansel Adams (refurbished) View Camera with the built-in 5.1 ProMedia and LCD screen ('cause that's what makes it a Home Theater Forum issue). -HornEd

With a little "Pekin North" of the woofer, Lilly will prove to have "her" original sweet tweet intact. Looks like a timbre-match of her crossover is in order... and thereby hangs the tale. -HornEd

Dit di di dah... okay, so it's not Morse Code but the opening notes of a symphonic work on bongos. I also did not use Zeno's note (which describes the Greek paradox about mathematically determining where a runner would be but has no way to explain how he got there! So, Clipped of your Morse morsels and Shorn of the off tempo tempura while waiting for the band at our last meeting... fini's "Zeno-to-Go" order smacks of a savory saga that "Enquiring Klipschers" want to know. Please give us a delightful C&S (Clam & Shuck) report on the Roseville Romp. Oh, yeah, and are you the one that is going to validate the "only 50 hours of use by a little old lady with an ear trumpet" story? -HornEd

Gil, as ever, we like the way you stay wired! -Klipsch, Mac & HornEd

Avman, you know from previous posts and emails that I dig the ambience and KLF-30's that makes your home theater a Showtime extravaganza! And there is no doubt that your ears are the ears to be pleased in your home theater err, unless you count the ears of a significant other. WDST can and does make a difference in countless acoustically challenged environments and Klipsch would be well served in continuing to offer them in their product line. That doesnt change the HornEd fact that six (fill in the monopole) identical speakers create a better overall sound from modern DVDs than any other hodge-podge of audio mismatches. There apparently is a lot to be said for inundating ones ears with theater sound but I am not the one to say it. But, I will say if you enjoy it and so does your significant other or assorted crumb crunchers (as they may appear) so be it! But, to paraphrase Ogden Nash: One bliss for which there is no match Is when you Klipsch itch It time to raise the scratch -HornEd

Agreed, Pistol Pete. As I understand it, only frequencies in the human voice range are affected by the switch, and at 16 Hz, both woofers would therefore be affected... err fried. But your smokin' efforts have earned you this Forum's bass admiration. -HornEd

Hey, with photos like that, a double post is most understandable! You mentioned a tapered array... to me that means that one of two woofers will be "turned off" in vocal ranges as an attempt to preserve the clarity of the spoken word. At 16 Hz, the tapered array should not have been a factor in smoking the voice coil. Remember, the replacements are too young to smoke! -HornEd PS: You may have coined a new Forum Phrase, "Hotter than a 16Hz Pistol on the Fourth (voice coil) of July!"